The Mhaldor Thread.

Thaumas

Jurixe is turning evil. Her signature is just cruel:(

Thaumas

Balazar said:

To be fair, Keresis didn't stand a chance, no matter how good of an addition she was. Mhaldor doesn't have room for more than one Master.

Thank you very much, no one ever heard that one before.

Tvistor

Keresis was way prettier than Sartan.

Jules

Tvistor said:

Keresis was way prettier than Sartan.

Srsly, 2/10.

Elowin

...Would bang?

Jules

Sartan knees...

Tael

Wall of text time.

I've been talking to a number of Mhaldorian players both older and younger, and I think I've refined my thinking to the point where expressing it might be sensible. This is, to my mind, the central problem hurting Mhaldor right now.

Continuing in a broadly similar direction to what I said before, a big issue is codification. Codified requirements and regulations are unnecessary with the size of the playerbase we have, reduce interactions to applications of checklists, train people to be reliant on externally-provided goals, and reduce the authority and creativity of people in charge of administering things. The last one is the thing that I think bears expansion.

When you have the people at the top not just governing directly, but establishing rules for how their subordinates should govern, you make the subordinates into little more than paperwork machines. You divest them of any substantial authority or responsibility because all they do is check the situation, apply the codified regulations, and act in accordance with them. That's fine in real life because governing doesn't actually need to be fun. But this is a game.

Right now, Mhaldor is suffering from a very extreme version of this problem. The only people allowed to exercise any judgement are people in the very limited number of leadership positions. In other cities, I suspect this isn't such a problem since there isn't such an overt focus on city-wide standards of discipline, training, etc. I think that tends to be more of a house issue in other cities (and this certainly does seem to be a problem in a lot of houses too from the people I've spoken with).

It's easy to see how this situation develops: it somehow feels like making detailed regulations for their subordinates to act by is something that someone in leadership should do, even if further reflection might suggest otherwise. More crucially, it's a safe system and Mhaldor has grown very, very safe since I started playing in the city years ago. As the population waned, it grew increasingly safe in response. I don't want to get any level of detail about IC events, but recently there's been increased discussion of the idea that harsh expectations with actual consequences and "hazing" are a bad idea because they're going to drive people away, and we need more people.

Now there is obviously a point where players should exercise restraint. I am in no way arguing against that. But at the same time, diluting your city's RP (and that is definitely what we're doing) for the sake of retention is extremely foolish. The reason we're bleeding players and seeing so few people moving over to Mhaldor isn't just the lack of active divine (as I've said, I think that excuse is exaggerated and often used to distract from what we can fix without them), it's that Mhaldor isn't providing the compelling, interesting atmosphere that it has in the past. Paying lip service to Evil is not nearly so interesting and fun as actually playing Evil.

We're not losing newbies because we're being too "mean" and, if we are, they should be in other places anyway. Being more disciplinarian is Mhaldor's thing. Without it, we're just another city with a nice backstory, a vague ideology that doesn't actually influence our regular interactions much, and a depressingly small population compared to other cities. I have said it many times and I will say it again: when I first decided to move to Mhaldor and got summarily executed by the person doing my first interview for a mistake, that was when I realised how compelling Mhaldor could be. Tael wasn't abused as a slave to the point where it wasn't fun, but there was definitely an element of hazing and it was great. It gave me a feel for how to play Evil and made things seem dramatic with every action full of consequence. There are plenty of places with compartively consequence-free play all over the game - even places to be a "bad guy" with relatively few restrictions and consequences. They all have larger populations and they tend to have ideologies that fit that role better too. Trying to compete with them is not a good solution to the population issue.

And part of the "safety" issue is that this weak system of authority concentrated at the top also means that responsibility is concentrated at the top. As someone who isn't in the city's leadership, my decisions never have consequences. I'm virtually never in a position to make a decision where I have to think about its repercussions. When I'm training a newbie and they fail horribly, I don't have to think about whether executing them would be sensible because I already know that what I'm supposed to do is just pass the buck on to someone in the leadership. This is a comfortable, safe situation, but I don't think it's a good one.

It's also very strange from an RP perspective. We're all about hierarchical organisation, but our hierarchy is presently pretty insubstantial - there are two levels: Viceroy/Tyrannus/relevant minister and "everyone else". City rank means virtually nothing, which is odd given our ideology.

The TL;DR is that leadership needs to have the final say, not the only say. They need to let subordinates do things (which will also cut down on the amount of work involved) and step in only when there's a problem, not try to preempt problems by reducing the authority of subordinates. This is true pretty generally in that it's a problem in a lot of orgs in the game that has become worse and worse over time, but it's especially pertinent to Mhaldor due to the way the Evil ideology is structured.

As a potential example that is precently somewhat relevant - anyone should have the authority to execute anyone else of lower city rank. Now this doesn't mean that they have no responsibility. It actually means that they have more - they need to be able to defend that decision to people above them and they have to face the consequences of it. They have the authority to do so, but that means there's no abnegation of responsibility - they don't get to pass the consequences of the decision off to the higher ups.

Iphis

I agree completely with you Tael. I know the situation you are speaking of regarding the recent so called 'hazing' and I too, believe there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. Mhaldor isn't there to be the caring, coddling mother hen to some chicks. At the same time though, you're right about there being a sort of 'power grab' at the top of the leadership. These certain people in a vauge leadership position believe that what they say goes. Now, for the most part, that is only true for the Tyrannus of Mhaldor and Sartan. It is ESPECIALLY grating when these people are diluting the discipline and strength of what Mhaldor was, to their ways of 'playing nice' in order to 'keep new players'. As you stated so eloquently, it doesn't work for Mhaldor. This is not the change Mhaldor needs, not now, not ever. BUT, Mhaldor does need a change and it needs one now. My vote is going back to pre-sundering days of what Evil was, not this newer kindlier/gentlier 'evil' bullshit. 

Delphinus

@Tael: While I've no experience with Mhaldor's current issues, I will say that when a hard-RP city is hemorrhaging citizens, loosening that atmosphere is not the right path. I agree; a compelling, engaging atmosphere is exactly what's needed in those situations.

I've been barking up that tree with Eleusis for years, no pun intended. (The difference is that ours has never been compelling.)

Katzchen

Nice to see some discussion coming from this. Several citizens have told me of their dislike of the reaction to the matter, both ICly and OOCly. It's been an interesting talking point.

Tael

Iphis said:

I agree completely with you Tael. I know the situation you are speaking of regarding the recent so called 'hazing' and I too, believe there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. Mhaldor isn't there to be the caring, coddling mother hen to some chicks. At the same time though, you're right about there being a sort of 'power grab' at the top of the leadership. These certain people in a vauge leadership position believe that what they say goes. Now, for the most part, that is only true for the Tyrannus of Mhaldor and Sartan. It is ESPECIALLY grating when these people are diluting the discipline and strength of what Mhaldor was, to their ways of 'playing nice' in order to 'keep new players'. As you stated so eloquently, it doesn't work for Mhaldor. This is not the change Mhaldor needs, not now, not ever. BUT, Mhaldor does need a change and it needs one now. My vote is going back to pre-sundering days of what Evil was, not this newer kindlier/gentlier 'evil' bullshit. 

This isn't quite what I'm getting at. Crucially, I don't think there's been a conscious power grab and I don't think any particular people are responsible, I think it's just been a natural reaction to waning population and some ineffable feeling that people in leadership should be creating rules for how their subordinates should govern.

The issue isn't that people in the leadership think that what they say goes - that's actually fine. The problem is that people in subordinate positions should likewise have authority. The system of authority right now treats slaves and CR 6 as being essentially identical, which was not the case in the past and is really strange given Mhaldorian RP.

Tvistor

Once someone was stormhammering Eleusian newbies. I CDF'd him without waiting to ask a Viceroy. I got CDF'd (my only one) and whatever, it was all legit.

Except I didn't actually notice any difference except some people call me Archai instead of Exsusiai now. I mean, if you didn't receive a message for it, it probably would have taken me a few weeks to realize what had happened. The ranks have been watered down even further since then.

Recently I executed Zephyros. Someone on the Council launched into a (somewhat hilarious) in-depth review of what constitutes a 'lawful execution' in Mhaldor, going so far as to use the logic that since a CDF requires Viceroy approval, and an execution is more serious than a CDF (in a world where we don't respawn, maybe), clearly all executions should go through even more stages of approval.

It felt like I was playing in Cyrene at some points. I understand the need to make sure we aren't just griefing our subordinates but this is twice in within one or two weeks an execution has been made a big deal out of. I hope it isn't a trend forming.

'Power grab' stuff seems ludicrous to me. There are a few individuals in Mhaldor who want to get into power, but they're certainly not in power at the moment, and hopefully never will be.

I was going to post more, but I basically always agree with Tael, so you can actually just imagine a second post labelled 'Tvistor' after all of his with the exact same content.

Katzchen

Wait, what, execution is more serious than a CDF? That's an interesting* point of view...

*may not accurately describe actual opinion.

Tanaar

Don't you people make a huge deal out of city rank while sacrificing/bashing/slicing/dicing/blowing up/stabbing/hanging/incinerating/feeding to Leviathan yourselves at every opportunity? Death < CDF

Tvistor

I'm hoping I misunderstood his point, but:

MHA NEWS #NUMBERS

Date: DELETING at EVERYTHING

From: BECAUSE I'M NOT SURE

To  : IF I SHOULD BE POSTING

Subj: THIS

[REDACTED]

Historically, executions are reserved for independent matters observed by a third party that the third party finds reasonable to execute. The vast majority of our executions are due to either a high ranking citizen, Minister, or Viceroy observing such behavior. The event concerning [REDACTED] is outside of this industry norm however. 

[REDACTED]

If we consider that the Council's approval is required for a disfavour,

we must also consider what is required for a lawful execution. [Oh god I live in Cyrene] Usually it's not an issue, as stated above, but in this instance I believe due to the personal dispute between the two [REDACTED]' actions were warranted as no third party was brought in, even though there were many present to do so. As this is widely considered the next step down from a disfavour (Does down mean more harsh or less harsh?), a second high ranking citizen or Minister should be the one to hand down the decision.

[SO MUCH REDACTION]

 

RIP the days of my youth where we bathed in the blood of fallen enemies and thought execution was crucial to building character.

Tael

Tvistor: CDF for revealing city information OOCly.

Also, to be crystal clear, I am in no way saying that we should enable people to be jerks. If people are abusing any sort of authority, that should be dealt with.

The point is that we used to do this sort of thing all the time. City rank used to matter a lot. There were problems, but they were rare. More importantly, it wasn't the end of the world when problems did arise and we just dealt with them when they came up.

We don't need to take all decision making and authority out of people's hands and give it to the leadership in order to preemptively make sure these issues don't arise.

Xer

I used to view being executed akin to being publicly shamed (the exp loss really shouldn't be a factor, I don't consider it to be one at least - especially if the execution is appropriately deserved). I still do to an extent, but after a few months of playing, I realised that executing and being executed is more a way of life for Mhaldorians - inherently in the culture. Outsiders and newcomers may not understand that at first, just like people might be reviled at customs in countries other than the one they're used to, but if you get past your initial revulsion and try to understand it with an open mind, you might come to understand why it's meaningful and has an impact.

Granted, harassment is a potential issue, but what is considered harassment, abuse even in North America would be considered how to properly raise children in parts of eastern Asia >.> As long as someone isn't being constantly executed, verbally harassed, or some obvious form of such, some more corporal discipline in Mhaldor really can't go amiss. A single execution really can't be considered abuse in Mhaldor - at least on its own. If it's a deliberate attempt to do something more, or OOC provocation, etc, something may have to be done or said, but an execution, once finished should be for the most part be left alone.

EDIT: Basically, executions aren't a big deal. The potential for harassment is there and we should be wary of it, but a single execution, with or without reason shouldn't cause much fuss. Any one execution could easily be the result of a misunderstanding, rather than for any malicious reasoning - it's when it's a continued thing that it becomes a problem.

Ruth

Tael said:

Wall of text time.

I've been talking to a number of Mhaldorian players both older and younger, and I think I've refined my thinking to the point where expressing it might be sensible. This is, to my mind, the central problem hurting Mhaldor right now.

Continuing in a broadly similar direction to what I said before, a big issue is codification. Codified requirements and regulations are unnecessary with the size of the playerbase we have, reduce interactions to applications of checklists, train people to be reliant on externally-provided goals, and reduce the authority and creativity of people in charge of administering things. The last one is the thing that I think bears expansion.

When you have the people at the top not just governing directly, but establishing rules for how their subordinates should govern, you make the subordinates into little more than paperwork machines. You divest them of any substantial authority or responsibility because all they do is check the situation, apply the codified regulations, and act in accordance with them. That's fine in real life because governing doesn't actually need to be fun. But this is a game.

Right now, Mhaldor is suffering from a very extreme version of this problem. The only people allowed to exercise any judgement are people in the very limited number of leadership positions. In other cities, I suspect this isn't such a problem since there isn't such an overt focus on city-wide standards of discipline, training, etc. I think that tends to be more of a house issue in other cities (and this certainly does seem to be a problem in a lot of houses too from the people I've spoken with).

It's easy to see how this situation develops: it somehow feels like making detailed regulations for their subordinates to act by is something that someone in leadership should do, even if further reflection might suggest otherwise. More crucially, it's a safe system and Mhaldor has grown very, very safe since I started playing in the city years ago. As the population waned, it grew increasingly safe in response. I don't want to get any level of detail about IC events, but recently there's been increased discussion of the idea that harsh expectations with actual consequences and "hazing" are a bad idea because they're going to drive people away, and we need more people.

Now there is obviously a point where players should exercise restraint. I am in no way arguing against that. But at the same time, diluting your city's RP (and that is definitely what we're doing) for the sake of retention is extremely foolish. The reason we're bleeding players and seeing so few people moving over to Mhaldor isn't just the lack of active divine (as I've said, I think that excuse is exaggerated and often used to distract from what we can fix without them), it's that Mhaldor isn't providing the compelling, interesting atmosphere that it has in the past. Paying lip service to Evil is not nearly so interesting and fun as actually playing Evil.

We're not losing newbies because we're being too "mean" and, if we are, they should be in other places anyway. Being more disciplinarian is Mhaldor's thing. Without it, we're just another city with a nice backstory, a vague ideology that doesn't actually influence our regular interactions much, and a depressingly small population compared to other cities. I have said it many times and I will say it again: when I first decided to move to Mhaldor and got summarily executed by the person doing my first interview for a mistake, that was when I realised how compelling Mhaldor could be. Tael wasn't abused as a slave to the point where it wasn't fun, but there was definitely an element of hazing and it was great. It gave me a feel for how to play Evil and made things seem dramatic with every action full of consequence. There are plenty of places with compartively consequence-free play all over the game - even places to be a "bad guy" with relatively few restrictions and consequences. They all have larger populations and they tend to have ideologies that fit that role better too. Trying to compete with them is not a good solution to the population issue.

And part of the "safety" issue is that this weak system of authority concentrated at the top also means that responsibility is concentrated at the top. As someone who isn't in the city's leadership, my decisions never have consequences. I'm virtually never in a position to make a decision where I have to think about its repercussions. When I'm training a newbie and they fail horribly, I don't have to think about whether executing them would be sensible because I already know that what I'm supposed to do is just pass the buck on to someone in the leadership. This is a comfortable, safe situation, but I don't think it's a good one.

It's also very strange from an RP perspective. We're all about hierarchical organisation, but our hierarchy is presently pretty insubstantial - there are two levels: Viceroy/Tyrannus/relevant minister and "everyone else". City rank means virtually nothing, which is odd given our ideology.

The TL;DR is that leadership needs to have the final say, not the only say. They need to let subordinates do things (which will also cut down on the amount of work involved) and step in only when there's a problem, not try to preempt problems by reducing the authority of subordinates. This is true pretty generally in that it's a problem in a lot of orgs in the game that has become worse and worse over time, but it's especially pertinent to Mhaldor due to the way the Evil ideology is structured.

As a potential example that is precently somewhat relevant - anyone should have the authority to execute anyone else of lower city rank. Now this doesn't mean that they have no responsibility. It actually means that they have more - they need to be able to defend that decision to people above them and they have to face the consequences of it. They have the authority to do so, but that means there's no abnegation of responsibility - they don't get to pass the consequences of the decision off to the higher ups.

I agree with this so much. It vexes me that not many people can see it from this angle. I've become quite frustrated how safe Mhaldor has become, more and more. I wrote a huge post somewhere about the hierarchy/power system IGly, and it was disappointing that I received not a single message from people (read: leaders) about the points I brought up.

Post was:

The power with which individuals are bestowed in the city works entirely
off of the hierarchy, or rather, the chain of command that has guided us
from the founding days of Mhaldor to the present day which finds us back
under the indomitable will of Lord Sartan. When one of a lower rank has
committed an offense against a superior, regardless of the matter, they
are expected to receive their punishment quietly. If they choose not to,
they have the option of initiating a bloodfeud. The Councillor - a
member of the Council - may rule upon the validity of said cause and
whatever decision was reached could not be overturned.

Bearing the above paragraph in mind, it is only natural to come to a
conclusion that the ability to hand down corporal punishments
(executions, use of the pillory included) may be freely exercised by
said superior.

[REDACTED] However, in dictatorship Mhaldor, is the general law not
largely based around our hierarchy system? If there was a need to elevate
the matter to a higher rank, then that is where the bloodfeud system may
be enacted.

Upon the matter of whether a personal situation must be weighed on by
more than one Viceroy, the word of a single Viceroy typically carries
enough authority and weight in them. Historically, Viceroys never
interfere in the decisions of others. However, disagreeing Viceroys may
bring the matter to the Tyrannus, who has the ultimate vetoing power and
may choose to exercise it if needed.

[REDACTED]


I'm really interested how Mhaldor is viewed though, internally and externally.

Synbios

Looks like the Cyrenian plot to assimilate Mhaldor into their bureaucratic web is progressing smoothly as planned. 

Tanaar

We are the snugglers. Lower your swords and surrender your city. Your cultural and organizational distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile

Sherazad

I don't think we really have to worry about Redacted. It's not like he's really around. I don't know how soft Mhaldor is, but I laughed when I saw that post. 

Anyways, for me, I don't view Mhaldor as soft. It's just not too hard as it can be. :S It's difficult to explain.

Cooper

It feels that the leadership of Mhaldor has just been slowly dropping in quality since roughly the Khoraji/Wulfen/Dethea area. Most new leaders have just been a worse version of the previous one. That is a hard problem to fix, and it hits me in the feels to see how shittily run Mhaldor is now compared to back in the day, and knowing nothing outside of the player base has really changed the city (recent events involving Keresis excluded)

Tvistor

Mhaldor still has a fairly strong group of awesome people. They just aren't allowed to do their thing as freely as they used to.

But yeah, I think the difficulty has dropped a fair bit. Something that bugs me is there's an OOC clan called Whiners that has quite a few Mhaldorians. The logic was that the city is quiet, so it's a good OOC outlet for novices and a way to keep in touch.

In reality, like a lot of OOC clans allowing mainly members of org X, it really devalues the Mhaldorian experience. It's a shame, since CR 1 was one of the coolest times if you're green enough to get scared by someone threatening execution.

Iocun

I'm really not quite sure why Xenomorph was picked as city leader. I mean, he makes you lol enough and I guess he's somewhat "badass", but he's just not quite the material for city leader of an RP-heavy city. Having good rapiers and cursing a lot just isn't all it takes.

Andraco

In my opinion, Mhaldor is the best city in terms of RP. That's also the scariest thing about it. I've wanted to have a character in Mhaldor for a while but I'm put off by the feeling that I wouldn't be able to keep up RP-wise with everyone else. 

Ruth

I encourage you to try, @Andraco!

And I agree that OOC clans does devalue the RP interaction. It makes your characters less intimidating once you interact with the person behind it.

Cooper

Ruth said:

I encourage you to try, @Andraco!

And I agree that OOC clans does devalue the RP interaction. It makes your characters less intimidating once you interact with the person behind it.

RP on the ooc clan too. Show people that you are 'truly' a badass irl too.

Katzchen

I will just be over here in my corner with no real ooc clans. :P 

Averi

I Mhaldorian RP. It is definitely one of my favourite cities.  Running into you guys in game has been some of my most frightening experiences. 

Although as a city, it's a bit too quiet sometimes. That's why I never have been able to keep a character there. 

Lodi

Firstly, Mhaldorians should be banned from joining OOC clans. Disagree if you want, but they detract more than they add.

Secondly, I personally have no problems with the IG leadership. Its a tough and often thankless job. People are quick to mention Wulfen, Dethea, etc. as perfect examples of what a Mhaldorian leader should embody. And these very same people then lament that Mhaldor is soft now and our current leaders are pale ghosts of their predecessors.

Yes Wulfen and co were inspirational statesmen, but the system that produced these legendary individuals was actually softer (in many ways) than the one we currently have. Back then, however, there was far more freedom for citizens to create exciting and engaging storylines for themselves and those around them. The more brutal and extreme the better.

Also, there was more of a cross-rank sense of common purpose. We didn't do things for 'the Mhaldorian government', we did them for Lord Sartan and for the 'idea' that was Mhaldor.

I often see in the logs people getting rewarded for serving 'the Mhaldorian goverment'. That feels like such a strange concept to me. It seems (imo) to have come about in response to Divine absence i.e. no God to rally around therefor lets rally around our leadership, as they are present and tangible. But this has created a divide within Mhaldor that is now causing problems.

We need to start working for the 'idea' of Mhaldor again. The leadership (and some of the rest of us) already do this. But the vast majority of ordinary citizens sound like they feel their purpose is to simply serve the government and, in turn, some of our leaders feel the populace is there to simply serve them.  This dull sense of bureaucratic loyalty is not a very inspiring concept to strive for. Whereas, I feel, the communal drive to (re)building an Evil utopia (the very concept upon which Mhaldor was founded) is.

We shouldn't seek to better Mhaldor just for the Mhaldorian Goverment. We should seek to better Mhaldor for each other. Thats how it was done in the old days anyway