Honestly, what's the deal with gold grabbing?

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  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited February 2015
    Ernam said:
    At the end of the day, it really doesn't hurt anyone.  As far as I can tell, the rules are just there so that the serious offenders can be regulated.  I know the official stance is "zero tolerance", but either there's some pretty obvious leniency on this, be it intentional, or a lack of manpower.
    A world where curing systems and minimal automation (fishing scripts, etc.) aren't allowed wouldn't work because it would end up too much like a fascist state and who wants to play in something like that? But auto-bashing, forging, etc. is considered bad form by many people because it makes Achaea less of an interactive, and engaging gameplay environment. 

    No matter what the divine do, someone is going to automate something in the process of playing Achaea. That's useful because game developers can look at what parts of Achaea players tend to automate and determine whether they are too tedious (old forging) and/or not fun. But the degree of automation can also be limited by enforcement against certain types of pervasive automation to increase engagement and separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. 

    When you make posts like this one, it doesn't help that cause. 

  • Ernam said:
    Herenicus said:
    You could slow down the balances to the point where automation and coding weren't really necessary, making the choices during combat more consequential. It's a pipe dream, I know - but maybe an increasingly byzantine combat system isn't the best, long-term. I don't know the industry very well.

    I dunno man, the complexity is what makes me play the game.  Can't speak for everyone else, but there are dozens, if not hundreds, of MMO options out there, and the draw of Achaea for me is the depth of combat theory (still learning things after a decade of playing) and coding challenges (many of which are simply for convenience, not actual improvements to combat potential).

    IRE's working their tails off to keep things simple for new players while keeping the core theory just as complex and interesting, at the same time.  It's really hard to please both new players and veterans at the same time, but I think their current direction is just fine.


    Yeah, there's no going back and uber-simplifying the system at this point. It is what it is.
  • Last night while hunting someone came into my room, made the last hit on a mob I was fighting and took the gold. He then instantly took the gold from his pack and gave it to me. It looked like some kind of alias he used.

    How would one create an alias to do this? Seems like that would solve a lot of problems from this thread, and if it doesn't, I'd at least like to know.
  • Noak said:
    Last night while hunting someone came into my room, made the last hit on a mob I was fighting and took the gold. He then instantly took the gold from his pack and gave it to me. It looked like some kind of alias he used.

    How would one create an alias to do this? Seems like that would solve a lot of problems from this thread, and if it doesn't, I'd at least like to know.
    A trigger to keep track of the last amount you picked up (saving that amount to a variable to use later), and an alias to get/give that saved amount. The specific details depend on the client.
  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, Norway
    if omni.inRoom("Noak") and goldWasDropped() then 
     expandAlias("get money from pack")
     send("give gold to  Noak")
    end

    That is how I would do it. I think svo has a function to get the gmcp room players list too. Making a gold was dropped script is basically just triggering a variable for the gold was dropped line.

    All in all it should be no longer than 9 lines to trigger a give Noak gold if he is in the room when gold is dropped.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, Norway
    Sena said:
    Noak said:
    Last night while hunting someone came into my room, made the last hit on a mob I was fighting and took the gold. He then instantly took the gold from his pack and gave it to me. It looked like some kind of alias he used.

    How would one create an alias to do this? Seems like that would solve a lot of problems from this thread, and if it doesn't, I'd at least like to know.
    A trigger to keep track of the last amount you picked up (saving that amount to a variable to use later), and an alias to get/give that saved amount. The specific details depend on the client.
    This is very miserly of you Sena. >(

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • omg yes
  • edited February 2015
    Ernam said:

    Would ask you to be more specific, because in the cases that I'm aware where I made a mistake, I was quick to admit it and adjust my perspective accordingly - but what you're mentioning has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

    tbf you never admitted you were wrong about heartseed being unavoidable and op

    sorry. Was just reading back through the thread and saw this.
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the Storm
    Sarapis said:
    Ernam said:
    Jules said:
    No, you misunderstand.  Most people who are doing this *are* at least monitoring their character I think (they'd be silly not to), and I mostly have no desire to report them.  Just be less condescending/presumptuous towards guys like the OP (and me).  That's all I want from those players. 

    I make way too much money to be humble on video game forums.  I know I'd be more popular if I was, but I simply don't care.

    This may be the single douchiest thing I've ever seen anyone say on the forums internet planet. 
    FTFY

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • Sarapis said:
    The heavy use of automation is the number one thing that has caused our combat system to be viewed as inaccessible to newbies because it raises the level of performance of those using heavy automation to the point where it's impossible to compete without it. It's as if everybody playing online chess was running Deep Blue (or whatever the modern equivalent is), and so nobody, not even the world's best chess players, can compete unless they also use automation. Automation has dramatically raised the performance level required to compete.
    I mostly disagree with this (the reality, not the perception; I agree that the perceived inaccessibility has been a problem even if it wasn't true). It was somewhat true before serverside curing, but even then it was more about the monetary cost (having to pay for a system if you wanted something good that's kept up to date for you) than anything else.

    I'm not saying that automated curing hasn't basically become required, but it hasn't made it harder to compete at all. Automation is a huge equaliser, it massively lowers the barrier to entry and reduces the player skill necessary to become good at PvP, as long as the automation is easily available (and with server-side curing/queuing/aliases now, the bulk of it is available without scripts to everyone, enough so that no client-side automation is necessary now). I wasn't much involved in combat back then, but I don't remember a time where combat was being balanced around automated curing but curing systems weren't being widely distributed yet (which is the only situation where it would have been a problem; it's not the automation itself that makes it hard for those without automation to compete, but rather the fact that combat has to be balanced around the assumption that everyone is curing instantly, so it was only after that balancing happened that automation became required).
  • AktillumAktillum Philippines
    edited February 2015
    Both viewpoints are mostly right for different reasons. Automation, especially server-side, has lowered the barrier of entry into combat but significantly raised the barrier of entry for the top-tier levels. (warning: anecdotal evidence incoming) I did decently enough, maybe mid-tier, as a completely manual healer back on the old java client in like 2002. Couldn't handle Occultists (their ents were fast back then), but I could definitely handle DSLs, just punching in curing aliases + offense fast enough. 

    These days, with GMCP, Regex, Lua, whatever people are using, semi-automated offense that checks for what your opponent has eaten...Seftin shared a dstab script with me that made me feel like such a noob.

    You gotta figure, combat systems back in the day, especially on like Zmud 3.1, were just a collection of triggers that were highly exploitable by illusions. Even the "advanced" old systems like ACP could be completely broken and go into spastic loops with a good illusion.

  • Sena said:
    Sarapis said:
    The heavy use of automation is the number one thing that has caused our combat system to be viewed as inaccessible to newbies because it raises the level of performance of those using heavy automation to the point where it's impossible to compete without it. It's as if everybody playing online chess was running Deep Blue (or whatever the modern equivalent is), and so nobody, not even the world's best chess players, can compete unless they also use automation. Automation has dramatically raised the performance level required to compete.
    I mostly disagree with this (the reality, not the perception; I agree that the perceived inaccessibility has been a problem even if it wasn't true). It was somewhat true before serverside curing, but even then it was more about the monetary cost (having to pay for a system if you wanted something good that's kept up to date for you) than anything else.

    I'm not saying that automated curing hasn't basically become required, but it hasn't made it harder to compete at all. Automation is a huge equaliser, it massively lowers the barrier to entry and reduces the player skill necessary to become good at PvP, as long as the automation is easily available (and with server-side curing/queuing/aliases now, the bulk of it is available without scripts to everyone, enough so that no client-side automation is necessary now). I wasn't much involved in combat back then, but I don't remember a time where combat was being balanced around automated curing but curing systems weren't being widely distributed yet (which is the only situation where it would have been a problem; it's not the automation itself that makes it hard for those without automation to compete, but rather the fact that combat has to be balanced around the assumption that everyone is curing instantly, so it was only after that balancing happened that automation became required).
    What you're missing is the fact that we've had to spend 10+ years altering the combat system in order to accommodate people using heavy automation so that the combat system doesn't just get 'solved' by automation (definitely possible to do in theory). It's led to people optimizing the heck out of the combat system and pushing the required level of combat knowledge through the roof, which is the issue.

    One of the things that kept combat more accessible in the early days was that one of the major ways to beat someone was to just hit them with more afflictions than they could keep up with using macros. Nobody cures manually as well as an automated system does. The kind of ultra-optimized combat you see today wasn't necessary because it didn't really matter - you had to be focused on curing afflictions, which is simple and easily understandable. Compare that to even setting up the server-side curing to work well for you - the former is much less complex.

    In this environment today, where everybody uses automation, yes, automation lowers the barrier to entry and is required because the barrier to entry is otherwise so high. The barrier was simply a lot lower when automation was not a thing, and it was much easier for someone new to jump in and get to the point where they're at least competent relative to other players. 


  • edited February 2015
    I GAVE IT BACK. Man, show the whole story  :D
    image
  • Hey I nabbed money from Merador twice and gave it back, yesterday I think? :tongue: 
  • Do you simply not care?
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the Storm
    I know I'd have more credits if I was, but I simply don't care.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • edited February 2015
    Sarapis said:
    This may be the single douchiest thing I've ever seen anyone say on the forums. 
    I agree that it was quite douchy.  It wasn't meant to be anything other than that - it was simply a (slightly exaggerated) reflection of my attitude at the moment.  I won't sugar coat it, but at the same time, I won't neglect the fact that it's fairly difficult to maintain a friendly, positive attitude when you're personally attacked on a daily basis, with moderators who seem to get a kick out of not enforcing the forum rules.

    edit: In retrospect, actually, it really has little to nothing to do with money.  It's really more about the fact that I simply don't feel the need to be humble on a forum that (in certain circles/threads) is consistently full of offensive, prejudiced individuals.  Of course, not everyone falls into this category, but enough do that I simply stopped caring about wasting time trying to come across as friendly, because I already know it isn't going to matter.

    I'd also point out that people with this mindset seem to make up a relatively large chunk of the forum userbase - I'm simply (apparently) the only one willing to come out and call it what it is.  It wasn't too long ago that the leader of the A-team instructed me to "blow" him.  I wouldn't call that modest.
  • Ernam said:

     It wasn't too long ago that the leader of the A-team instructed me to "blow" him.  I wouldn't call that modest.
    Saying "blow me" is probably closer to telling someone to go fornicate theirself. Not really anything to do with modesty
  • edited February 2015

    At least with Ernam you do know *exactly* what you've got, and what he's trying to say.  I do like that better than subtle insults/denials you get from a fair few people (although those people do seem to be far, far fewer in number lately, and this is a very good thing). 

    He tends to have conversations in earnest (what a concept), so you can discuss a topic with him and discuss the actual topic.  You might realize that he has a completely different set of values than you do on that topic, but that in itself is a good outcome because you get to learn where he's actually coming from, and he doesn't deny it.  I doubt he's even the cockiest person on the forums, as sensational as that statement he made was - he just doesn't hide it well, and being constantly needled can push you to be more reactive in general (which is usually what people pushing you want).  Anyway...

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