Honestly, what's the deal with gold grabbing?

Silas

I pick up any gold I see when walking through an area, and don't offer it back. If someone picks up my gold, I don't ask for it back. It's just completely unimportant to me.

No complaints if someone thinks I'm an asshole, or if someone tries to kill me for it.

Santar

Someone issued me one time for picking up gold. They claimed I was systematically griefing them and that walking through their room and grabbing 112 GP was the final straw.

Jarrel

all gold on the internet is mine, I just haven't got it yet. 

Jovolo

Ernam said:

Bluef said:

Giving people a hard time over something meaningless is being an asshole. (1)

This is simply preposterous.  You spend more in a few seconds of combat on herbs/salves than you lose on this, and nobody thinks a thing of it.  Jhui isn't an "asshole" for making me cure afflictions.  It is readily dismissed as more or less ignorably cheap, despite being hundreds of times more expensive than "gold grabbing". (2)

I agree, and I said this myself.  Achaea is a multiplayer game, with areas that must be shared.  Thus, you have to learn how to compromise and give a little at times to get along with people.  Throwing a hissy fit about a quantity of gold that you would quite literally never even notice missing if it evaporated out of your pack is being FAR more selfish and anti-social than a person who accidentally grabbed your gold while passing by. (3)

1. Evidently, it isn't meaningless to everybody. You contradict your third statement of "You have to learn how to compromise and give a little at times" - I think it's harder to 'tolerate' and 'give-in' to what is essentially theft, than to permit theft on lack of principle because it brings us closer together. I think that's a purely IC thing, too. If you go around stealing the earned bashing gold from people, that doesn't make you mean irl, you're playing a role. It certainly doesn't mean that others have to stand around and let you do it. 

2. Your comment here is far more preposterous than Bluef's was. If you engage in combat with Jhui, you're either doing it involuntarily or voluntarily. If it's the former (and note, by voluntarily I don't necessarily mean that you want to fight Jhui, just that you brought it upon yourself by doing something that would reasonably incite his wrath), then yes, Jhui is being an asshole. He's not only wasting your curatives, but he's breaking the rules of the game. If it's the latter, then you've signed yourself on for the combat and you will obviously be prepared to lose a few curatives in the process. In the case of "gold-grabbing", it's much more in the camp of the former, unsavoury and involuntary participation.

3. No one is really saying that grabbing gold in and of itself isn't okay, it does happen at times. The action that most people have an issue with is purposefully doing it, confirmed by the unwillingness to give the gold back. I don't think people have an issue with it from an OOC perspective, either. All I'd argue is that grabbing gold and refusing to give it back is a reasonable in character justification to either hire, or attempt to kill that person yourself. It shouldn't have to be "tolerated" because some people don't care about their gold. Some people also don't care about dying, but that doesn't mean we should force their standards on the entire playerbase.

Rip

@Nemutaur...maybe blame was the wrong term..the reason it happens more often.  And yes I am glad you made it a toggle and..I was being sarcastic and making a joke. (It's a fine feature and wunderSys is stellar) Frankly I am surprised at the response of this thread.  

Kayeil

I do have to wonder why the admins continue to allow us to auto get corpses but not our own gold, even if it has to be toggled for group hunting. Seems like the gold grabbing just creates unnecessary drama and conflict that almost no one wants.

Orzaansyn

I believe that at contrary people really want those dramas, or we would not have 3 pages about 175 gold auto grabbed.

Bluef

Ernam said:

Bluef said:

Intent is not the issue. Being an asshole is.
Giving people a hard time over something meaningless is being an asshole.

It's not meaningless. You might perceive it that way because you're one of those people who would think nothing of mindlessly bashing and then grabbing gold out from under someone else, but generally speaking I think we all agree this is pretty impolite behavior that violates social norms and game etiquette. Apart from being ill-mannered, it's also morally wrong -- and some city cultures in the game are supposed to embrace 'good' (or so they say), making it oxymoronic for members of those regions to do so as well as simply inconsiderate.

 If you want to use an auto looter, be aware of your surroundings. It's that simple. Don't look at something else while following someone around and pick up other people's loot and not expect people to call you out on your actions.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the value of what's lost either; it's about not being the stereotypical zombie while bashing because it's bad form all around.
This is simply preposterous.  You spend more in a few seconds of combat on herbs/salves than you lose on this, and nobody thinks a thing of it.  Jhui isn't an "asshole" for making me cure afflictions.  It is readily dismissed as more or less ignorably cheap, despite being hundreds of times more expensive than "gold grabbing".

Again, it isn't about the value of what is lost, Ernam. I get that when you look at Achaea you monetize everything. Not everyone does so. What is being discussed here is the mindset that it is okay to pretty much mindlessly bash your way through an area without regard for anyone else in the game. That's crap.

You can't play Achaea in single player mode. We're an online community. That's the very essence of the game: We exist in a Multi-user dimension. People can take a moment to stop and correct their wrong; by doing so they will be better regarded by the person and likely the community as a whole.

I agree, and I said this myself.  Achaea is a multiplayer game, with areas that must be shared.  Thus, you have to learn how to compromise and give a little at times to get along with people.  Throwing a hissy fit about a quantity of gold that you would quite literally never even notice missing if it evaporated out of your pack is being FAR more selfish and anti-social than a person who accidentally grabbed your gold while passing by. 

I laughed when I read this. I really did.

You want people to 'compromise' by not giving a shit when people roll up in a hunting room and snatch gold. How about we 'compromise' by people who want to autoloot simply not being AFK enough to take two seconds to turn it off when they're simply roaming and not hitting anything. Or would that break the monotony of simply following someone around and auto-targeting and hitting denizens too much?

Edit: I'm not trying to pick a fight. I feel like my remarks might be a bit snarky, but I think insulting people who appreciate good manners is a bit off.

Nemutaur said:

Rip said:

Well, I have a small CTS problem from Achaea, and hunting in general.  Picking up gold manually, ie typing Get gold...sort of hurts, so I get gold on a slain denizen via a trigger.

I blame wunderSys as the auto looter...it grabs everything, gold, corpses...etc etc

Blame it all you like but there is a toggle to turn it off. If someone nicks my gold and offers to give it back I let it slide, it really isn't worth the hassle to stop your bashing run just to wait to get that gold back. But if they don't then I usually ask them why they didn't offer it back.

Most days you get an apology and the offer to give it back, then once again I let it slide. But if they reply that its not theft and are an asshole about gold I bashed, I'm an asshole back and will attempt to kill them for however long I feel is necessary to impart good bashing etiquette. 

^^^Exactly. So much this @Nemutaur.

Ernam

Orzaansyn said:

I believe that at contrary people really want those dramas, or we would not have 3 pages about 175 gold auto grabbed.

Yep.  This was my whole theory too.  I listed 14 reasons why nobody should give a crap about this.  So far, all the responses have bordered on "But it hurt my feelings", or "It's obviously intentional", or trying to convince us that it's "theft" (despite years of evidence and help files stating that it is not).

It's just as much "theft" as someone breathing air on your property.  Is that your air?  Yes.  Did they ask if they could breathe it?  No.  When you leave, do you ask if they'd like their oxygen back?

If you split hairs, is this fundamentally "stealing"?  Only if you really want it to be, and have a deep-seated desire to accuse and/or argue with strangers over something that in all likelihood, you never noticed that you do to everyone else.

I've been annoyed in the past about gold grabbing, so I absolutely understand it, but I've also been on the other side of it just as frequently, and I get more annoyed when people get angry about it.  It's obviously not intended, it's an amount of gold that equates to a few seconds of playing a video game, and I am just as often on the other side of it, making it quite easy to empathize.

Moral of the story, I think that if you think that people grabbing gold on accident makes them an asshole, then in fact, you are an asshole.  Only one of the two of you is doing something completely unreasonable that has long-lasting negative (or noticeable) effects, by dramatically and intentionally overreacting to quantifiably insignificant mistakes made by others.  Please, show me a better definition for the word "asshole" (without a biology lesson).

Riashain

I love how it is not unreasonable to just auto grab gold. How about you stop being a lazy ass and code it properly? How about that, huh?

Note: you is generic here.

Bluef

Ernam said:

Orzaansyn said:

I believe that at contrary people really want those dramas, or we would not have 3 pages about 175 gold auto grabbed.

Yep.  This was my whole theory too.  I listed 14 reasons why nobody should give a crap about this.  So far, all the responses have bordered on "But it hurt my feelings", or "It's obviously intentional", or trying to convince us that it's "theft" (despite years of evidence and help files stating that it is not).

It's just as much "theft" as someone breathing air on your property.  Is that your air?  Yes.  Did they ask if they could breathe it?  No.  When you leave, do you ask if they'd like their oxygen back?

If you split hairs, is this fundamentally "stealing"?  Only if you really want it to be, and have a deep-seated desire to accuse and/or argue with strangers over something that in all likelihood, you never noticed that you do to everyone else.

I've been annoyed in the past about gold grabbing, so I absolutely understand it, but I've also been on the other side of it just as frequently, and I get more annoyed when people get angry about it.  It's obviously not intended, it's an amount of gold that equates to a few seconds of playing a video game, and I am just as often on the other side of it, making it quite easy to empathize.

Moral of the story, I think that if you think that people grabbing gold on accident makes them an asshole, then in fact, you are an asshole.  Only one of the two of you is doing something completely unreasonable that has long-lasting negative (or noticeable) effects, by dramatically and intentionally overreacting to quantifiably insignificant mistakes made by others.  Please, show me a better definition for the word "asshole" (without a biology lesson).

Wrong. You have somehow managed to write a lengthy response to a few of my posts and yet not really read them (or willfully ignored their content).

It's impolite. It's poor game decorum (unless you're a thief or a Mhaldorian or roleplaying an asshole). It's inconsiderate. It's the epitome of what is wrong with automated bashing.

I don't expect you to understand though. You've just labeled lots of Achaeans assholes for wanting to treat each other with a modicum of consideration and respect.

By the way: Trust me, there can be long-lasting effects to being an asshole (to even just one person once in) Achaea. The fact that you're not bothered by them really says more about you as a player than anything else.

The small things matter. In roleplay. In PK. There is such a thing as appropriate behavior in a community of online gamers.

Jovolo

For someone who criticizes bad metaphors and analogies, you enjoy posting them yourself Ernam. How is 'breathing air on someone's property' remotely similar to walking up to a fight between two people and then taking the gold that falls from the dead person's body while the survivor is off balance from the killing blow? wtf? 

I don't get the people that are offended by it irl, like Bluef seems to be. My argument is different from that, predicated on the fact that we shouldn't "Let it slide" IN-GAME unless you actually want to (you're apathetic or you're a pansy b!t@h), because that's a totally nonsensical standard to force on others. If someone steals your hard-earned gold, fking kill them for it, or hire if you can't. Simple

Khairt

Just throwing this out there: ask me for 100 credits, a clan, a boat. I'll likely give it to you. Take 1 gold from me without permission and that's it for life, man. The amount is irrelevant.  If you take a dollar out of my hand I'll cut you, sucka. 

Bluef

Jovolo said:

If someone steals your hard-earned gold, fking kill them for it, or hire if you can't. Simple.

Not really offended. I just think it's poor form. But I like your response.

Ernam

Bluef said:

Wrong. You have somehow managed to write a lengthy response to a few of my posts and yet not really read them (or willfully ignored their content).

You do realize that you did exactly this in this very post, right?  Please actually read my post and try to understand what I am trying to say, instead of glancing at it and scrounging for something in it you can argue with.  I think I made some very good points, and you completely discarded them.

If you think that 100 gold is significant, then you're irrational, because I demonstrated at length that it is not (in a non-subjective way).

If you think that getting gold automatically is "autobashing", then you're being irrational, because nowhere in the history of the game has this definition applied to getting gold - you're just using that term to incite anger.

If you think that accidentally grabbing someone's gold is "rude", then you're being irrational, because it is unintentional (not a decision) and therefore cannot be rude.  You're fooling yourself (and those around you) by twisting the facts to make it seem like using a gold gathering trigger is somehow unreasonable, inconsiderate, or anything other than "standard".

You clearly stated that you don't expect me to understand your logic, but then continue to try explain it to me with very poorly constructed non-platonic logic - an irrationality double-kill.

By the way: Trust me, there are long-lasting effects of being an asshole to a person just once in Achaea. The fact that you're not bothered by them really says more about you as a player than anything else. The small things matter. In roleplay. In conduct with others. There is such a thing as appropriate behavior for participation in a community of online gamers.

Yes, yes there are, and my entire point (which you ignored) was that only one of the two individuals in a "gold grabbing" situation have made a conscious decision to negatively affect the other person, without employing rational thought or quantitative judgement.

Person A )  Is a perfectly kind, thoughtful, empathetic person, who like many others, installs SVO to help with curing.  She decides she would like to go bashing for a while, but gets bored while bashing, so turns on her TV and splits her attention between Lost and 300 pages of "garrote gnoll, you have recovered balance on all limbs".  Somewhere in that 300 pages, she fails to notice that she grabbed 36 gold in a room where another basher also killed a gnoll.

Person B )  Also decides to go out bashing, and in the process of doing so, also endures 300 pages of mundane, boring text.  In this 300 pages, he ALSO grabs gold at least once or twice, but overlooks this as perfectly acceptable, because he stopped to give it back (disrupting both of them).  Later, he runs into Person A while bashing, who without any ill intention, walks in, kills a gnoll, and as if automatically, grabs the gold and moves on.  This makes person B very angry.


The difference between the two people is that person B has a conscious choice here, and person A does not.  Person B fails to realize how utterly insignificant that 36 gold actually is, and amplifies it a thousandfold by turning into a matter of "ideology" or "principal" instead of what it actually is:  36 gold.  Furthermore, Person B then projects their irrationality onto Person A, by insisting that Person A should alter their system to prevent this, which would cost hundreds or thousands of times more gold for Person A than the actual amount of "gold grabbing" it would prevent (in gold missed or time wasted manually gathering gold).

Person B has artificially labeled something "rude" based on narcissism so powerful they're willing to overlook rationality even when presented to them in the form of math and logic.  Person B know that they could never be wrong or disproportionate about anything, so they assume that if something upsets them, that the other person involved is automatically "rude" or in some form "wrong".

Meanwhile, Person A, continued bashing, and has earned a few hundred thousand gold, while Person B rants on the forums about how Person A took their internet points, and earns nothing - completely missing the overwhelming irony of the fact that they're willing to "throw stones" at others for 36 gold, while quite literally spending more than that on the electricity it takes to power their monitor while complaining about it.

Jovolo

You're attempting to justify - or at least, argue the tolerance of - theft of property by the quantity of the heist. 

Khairt

Some people just WANNA  get stabbed, brovolone

Ernam

Jovolo said:

You're attempting to justify - or at least, argue the tolerance of - theft of property by the quantity of the heist. 

A ) It is not theft.  This is a fact that has been repeatedly stated by game admin, and is accepted by reasonable people.

B ) I'm also not arguing that it's "right" to take it, in the first place.  I'm arguing that wrong or right, it is such a trivially small amount of gold that even if it was theft, it would be so insignificant that it should be meaningless.

Even if we did fictitiously assume that this was theft, consider this fact:

If I was walking down the street, at one point stepping into someone's yard, and a blade of grass from their yard stuck to the bottom of my shoe, which I then (unknowingly and unintentionally) walked away with in my possession, and that person took me to court because I "stole" his blade of grass, any judge would laugh that out of the room.  In fact, there are laws in place just because of such ridiculous notions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_minimis .

What I'm arguing is that some people just want to be angry at or judgemental of others, to the point where they're willing to completely ignore the reality of the situation that their very argument rests upon (the accumulation of gold, in this case) - for both people involved - which is (to reiterate) inherently ironic because they're wasting the time (and therefore wealth) of others in the process of demanding a lesser amount for themselves (than they would have earned by just ignoring it).

Jovolo

Your analogies just keep getting better.

Sena

Jovolo said:

You're attempting to justify - or at least, argue the tolerance of - theft of property by the quantity of the heist. 

Which is perfectly normal, the quantity does make a huge difference.

If someone takes a penny in real life (or, to make it closer to the situation here, someone accidentally gets your penny stuck to their shoe as they walk past rather than intentionally taking it), it's not a big deal. Even if it was completely intentional (which likely would make the person an asshole and technically a thief), it's still not worth spending more than a couple seconds complaining about, and there are probably very few people who would bother trying to get it back.

Noak

Ernam said:

Noak said:

the neighbor ... can't afford to lose even a single seed....he just needs to update his perspective on what to be angry about.

Correct.  I understand that you're being sarcastic, but I don't understand why.  Your sarcastic comment is 100% rational.

It's not really worth getting further into. I just don't agree with your view on gold snatching. 

Jovolo

You're looking at the wrong point: The quantity may change the level of outrage felt, even crossing from apathy to anger depending on whether the difference in amount was one penny or two, but that's far removed from what I'm saying: The theft is still theft, regardless of what you take. The matter is one of principle! I don't feel it's worth discussing the extent at which a person is frustrated with their gold being taken because it's entirely subjective, what I'm instead saying is that we shouldn't place the onus on the victim to just ignore the act of theft because the theft itself was relatively minor. If they want to take action, they should be able to do so. This includes adequate attempt at resolution such as "Can I have my gold back?", which I would expect from any sane person before immediately jumping to murder. That in itself is a different topic, though.

Herenicus

Now, now.

If ignoring the reality of a situation was criminal, we would be sharing three hots and a cot for arguing the rightness or wrongness of the feelings generated by gold-grabbing and, since that wasn't meta enough, the ethics of dismissing said feelings with high-handed logic.

Cobault

...I gotta learn how to full-auto hunt. I've apparently been playing Achaea wrong. I still manual target/manual grab gold/manual move. At least I did learn about do repeat...

Bluef

Ernam said:

If you think that 100 gold is significant, then you're irrational, because I demonstrated at length that it is not (in a non-subjective way).

If you think that getting gold automatically is "autobashing", then you're being irrational, because nowhere in the history of the game has this definition applied to getting gold - you're just using that term to incite anger.

If you think that accidentally grabbing someone's gold is "rude", then you're being irrational, because it is unintentional (not a decision) and therefore cannot be rude.  You're fooling yourself (and those around you) by twisting the facts to make it seem like using a gold gathering trigger is somehow unreasonable, inconsiderate, or anything other than "standard".

Instead of showing how anyone has made an error in the statement that there is a minimum level of decorum that is reasonable to expect between 'adventurers' in Achaea you insult them. Just because people do not agree with your opinion on a matter, does not make them irrational. This kind of response is petty and really below your obvious intelligence.

Yes, yes there are, and my entire point (which you ignored) was that only one of the two individuals in a "gold grabbing" situation have made a conscious decision to negatively affect the other person, without employing rational thought or quantitative judgement.

Your small mindedness is showing. This isn't about one or two people gold grabbing. It is about the culture of the game we all play.

Ernam

Cobault said:

...I gotta learn how to full-auto hunt. I've apparently been playing Achaea wrong. I still manual target/manual grab gold/manual move. At least I did learn about do repeat...

Nobody here is talking about auto-hunting.... A single "get gold" trigger does not an auto basher make.

Ernam

Perhaps someone should classlead an ability or artefact to get gold instantly when you kill something.  I don't see it as necessary (I don't really appreciate attempts to dumb down the game), but it's at least worth considering.

Austere

Comparing a get gold trigger to auto hunting is just ignorant.  An effective auto hunter [not including the Ai to not get busted] would be hundreds of triggers/scripts/area specific programming.  I manual hunted my way to dragon with an attack alias and manual targetting.  I triggered my gold getting. 

As for the op, jonesey didn't even take the gold.  Why are you crying to him and expecting him to do something about it? If i were jonesey,  I would have came and stole some gold too,  so you at least have a reason to whine about me. 

Aepas

hold on while I grab my robe of logic and wizard hat of victim blaming and then my staff of "anyone taking this thread seriously is a freaking idiot" while I put on my slippers of caring too much.

Basically, read some posts, wasted a part of my life. move on people, or get to one of those sites where we like to debate people's issues believing we are on the higher ground.

Trey

Am I the one who has to point out the humor in the post referencing "narcissism so powerful they're willing to overlook rationality even when presented to them in the form of math and logic"? Not picking on you just for the sake of it @Ernam, you've just been guilty of the very same thing in the past on -several- occasions (as have I, mostly regarding forging changes but I'm sure there were probably some before that).