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Honestly, what's the deal with gold grabbing?

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  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    Nim said:

    Automation has its roots in the same ideals as manual combat, though - balance chasing. It's just that while attacking might have one or two balances (blademasters have it weird here, since they have off-balance strikes that also cost balance - I wish there was an OFFBALANCE option to prevent striking while on balance), curing has four or five balances... and then all of these balances are only one or two seconds most of the time, often not more than four (except tree and class curing).

    It's difficult enough chasing one or two such balances actively, impossible to manage five of them, so people automate. Not just curing - affliction loop aliases seem pretty common too, as well as on-balance queueing, etc. It's not exactly bot vs bot, but definitely cyborg vs cyborg.

    No, it's not impossible. It's hard. Just like playing any fast competitive game with a time based element is. being able to keep up is part of the skill.
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Should have specified that I meant with perfect timing in all situations.

    Could probably get the timing down against certain offenses with extensive macros set up. Clever serpents would probably ruin you though.
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    Nim said:
    Should have specified that I meant with perfect timing in all situations.

    Sure, just like it's impossible to play perfect chess, much less timed perfect chess. Does that mean it should be ok to use chess programs to help you when playing online chess because you aren't good enough without?

  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The issue here, though, is doing multiple things at once.

    You never have to do that in Chess. You have to be aware of multiple things at once, or learn how to abstract the board, or whatever else people who're good at chess do. I hear there's a lot of rote moves at higher levels of play. But you never have to do anything on your turn other than move a single piece to a single square.

    But in Achaea, you literally have to simultaneously attack and cure. Even if it's just sipping health, but especially against affliction types.
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    Makes no difference. What you're saying boils down to, "I'm not good enough so I'll get a computer to play for me because I can get away with it." 

    Most people can't compete at the highest level in any skill-based competition. I can't compete in Starcraft so should it be ok for me to use automated help (no idea if such software exists but if it doesn't now it will in the nearish future)? The answer is pretty obviously no and the only reason we're forced to accept it here is because there's no way to reliably catch people substituting automation for skill.
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    To be more precise, what I'm saying is that people did that because they couldn't get caught, and the gameplay mechanics have since been balanced around people automating things, rather than eliminating the need to automate things.

    I'm not really saying it's a terrible thing, since part of why I enjoy combat is the scripting side of things - it gives me some output for hobby programming. I'm just saying that the game's been balanced to the point where you'd have to be ludicrously good at manualing to even come close to competing with automation.
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited February 2015
    Sarapis said:
    Makes no difference. What you're saying boils down to, "I'm not good enough so I'll get a computer to play for me because I can get away with it." 


    To be fair, a lot of the scripts I make are not intended to do things that people can't do (in fact, that'd be impossible).

    They're just designed to make things easier, and are specifically designed to help people overcome skill gaps that would (and often do) prevent them from enjoying their class to even a shred of its potential.

    For instance, everyone is capable of counting to 10.  Having a hit counter that keeps track for them just makes that "easier", so they can focus on their affliction selection instead of trying to juggle 6 different "counts" in their head, while doing 8 other things at the same time.

    I see this as a great benefit to new players who'd like to learn more about combat theory, but are faced with overcoming basic, but required concepts, like limb achieving reliable limb breaks.

    For more skilled players, it's more of a convenience thing.  It's not like I (personally) am not capable of hitting my "curare/kalmia" alias, but if every fight I participate in starts with this, then "automating" this isn't doing anything I could easily do manually, it is simply making my life easier.

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
        Merador
      1. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        edited February 2015

        Sarapis said:
        Makes no difference. What you're saying boils down to, "I'm not good enough so I'll get a computer to play for me because I can get away with it." 


        There's also the fact that in order to write, or even use, any kind of automation scripting, you have to actually know how to do everything you're scripting your system to do for you.

        You can't write a Chess AI that beats everyone unless you know how to beat everyone.

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
          1. NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            That's debatable.

            To write, yes, you need to know things in and out.

            To use, no, a lot of people install SVO without even knowing basic curing theory.
            Bluef
          2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            Nim said:
            That's debatable.

            To write, yes, you need to know things in and out.

            To use, no, a lot of people install SVO without even knowing basic curing theory.

            That's true, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to demonstrate that SVO has had a net negative effect on the game.  I'd go so far to say that it (and its predecessors) have been a significant reason Achaea has been as successful as it has.

            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                Nim
              1. AalmAalm Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                I am nothing resembling an expert on Achaea, and I'd be the last to say otherwise. But, to my observation, the RP aspect of the game is very humanities-intensive, while the combat relies on techy stuff and coding. There ARE people that are great at both, but I think the automation such as SVO helped make Achaea user-friendly to humanities-only people such as myself, who can contribute with RP. I've met people that severely dislike the automation, and their issues with it are extensive, so I know there's a lot of people that feel automation's literally ruined the game. But on the positive side there are people that probably couldn't play the game without it, and hopefully that's made up the situation in other ways.
              2. ShibumiShibumi Member Posts: 223 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                @Ernam I did love your project about the dummy for practicing combat. I think this is something the realm is missing. I have been playing for a small while, but given my RL situation, I really cannot play a lot or for an extensive session. So I am still miles away from PvP.
                Light prevails, always
              3. TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,403 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Going to be a forum hall monitor here and say I think this thread has gone drastically off track from the original intent. Maybe we can get a split off into another topic you can discuss the pros and cons of scripting and automation?
                Rip
              4. ElazarElazar NC/MhaldorMember Posts: 76 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                Tahquil said:
                Going to be a forum hall monitor here and say I think this thread has gone drastically off track from the original intent. Maybe we can get a split off into another topic you can discuss the pros and cons of scripting and automation?
                What about multi class?

              5. SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
                Nim said:
                . I'm just saying that the game's been balanced to the point where you'd have to be ludicrously good at manualing to even come close to competing with automation.
                Yeah, that's exactly my point. Whereas at one time all you had to do was know how to set up macros to start competing, which are supported on essentially every client out there, now you have to learn to deal with server-side curing queues and if you -really- want to be competitive, either download or pay for third party software that helps with not just defense but offense as well, and you have to at least start to understand what it can do for you and when so that you don't step on it with your own manual entry commands.

                Barrier to entry = higher as a result.
              6. JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
                I just hope I live to see us integrate AI with our own brains.  AI that is smarter than us *is* going to happen in that timeframe, and hopefully we don't make intelligence that decides to use our atoms for something.  DeepMind was worried enough about it that they made Google sign an ethics clause when they bought the company for creepy (but yeah, brilliant) old Ray Kurzweil to play with. 
                Sarapis
              7. EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Bashing etiquette to strong AI in 8 pages. Truly, the forum singularity approaches.
                JulesShirszaeSarapis
              8. TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                this could really easily be retitled to "random subjects"
                Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
                Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
                Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

              9. FlorentinoFlorentino Member Posts: 516
                Sarapis said:

                Ernam said:

                Sarapis said:
                Makes no difference. What you're saying boils down to, "I'm not good enough so I'll get a computer to play for me because I can get away with it." 


                There's also the fact that in order to write, or even use, any kind of automation scripting, you have to actually know how to do everything you're scripting your system to do for you.
                Knowing and doing are completely different things. There's a reason Pete Carroll (coach of the winning team in the Superbowl this year) wasn't out on the field playing. He knows. He can't do.

                TIL Sarapis missed the very very end of the Super Bowl and has been living under a rock ever since :wink:   
              10. RipRip Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
                There you have it!  What's the deal with gold grabbing anyhow?  Because a coach can't play football.  

                Sarapis
              11. CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,326 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Nim you're severely underestimated how good some of us were at manually curing and fighting back in the day. We relied more on macros than aliases. My keyboard was like a high tech spaceship. Right hand was curing, left hand was attacking (for the most part. Therer was always overlap), and highlights helped tell me which afflictions I had just received faster than reading the screen. Green = kelp cure, yellow = goldenseal cure, red = bloodroot cure, purple = smoke valerian, gold = apply epidermal, blue = mending, dark blue = restoration, etc.

                MasarykSarapisKezAktillum
              12. SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
                Florentino said:
                Sarapis said:

                Ernam said:

                Sarapis said:
                Makes no difference. What you're saying boils down to, "I'm not good enough so I'll get a computer to play for me because I can get away with it." 


                There's also the fact that in order to write, or even use, any kind of automation scripting, you have to actually know how to do everything you're scripting your system to do for you.
                Knowing and doing are completely different things. There's a reason Pete Carroll (coach of the winning team in the Superbowl this year) wasn't out on the field playing. He knows. He can't do.

                TIL Sarapis missed the very very end of the Super Bowl and has been living under a rock ever since :wink:   
                Hahaha, you're right. My bad! I did actually miss the end (the entire second half in fact), but I know too many die-hard Seahawks fans (like Jeremy, IRE's President) not to be aware of what happened. Sports results tend to leave my brain pretty quickly though as I'm not a big fan of watching them.

              13. SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
                Tharvis said:
                this could really easily be retitled to "random subjects"
                Old-timey mustaches on dogs are cool.
                TharvisJulesCaladbolg
              14. MasarykMasaryk Sangre PlainsMember Posts: 157 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                Meanwhile, in Achaea...

                Noak gets some gold sovereigns from a wyrmskin pack.
                H: 4299 (100%), M: 4413 (93%) 16677w, 20359e 23% x|cdb- 17:23:27.145
                Aspirant Noak (male Human).
                He is 161 years old, having been born on the 4th of Aeguary, 516 years after the fall of the
                Seleucarian Empire.
                He is ranked 375th in Achaea.
                He is an extremely credible character.
                He is not known for acts of infamy.
                He is a Sentry in Targossas.
                He is considered to be approximately 85% of your might.
                He is a mentor and able to take on proteges.
                His warcry: 'Scream, the demons are coming.'
                H: 4299 (100%), M: 4413 (93%) 16677w, 20359e 23% x|cdb- 17:23:27.400
                Noak's eyes gleam with generosity.
                H: 4299 (100%), M: 4413 (93%) 16677w, 20359e 23% x|cdb- 17:23:27.892
                You have recovered equilibrium. (4.94s)
                H: 4299 (100%), M: 4413 (93%) 16677w, 20359e 23% ex|cdb- 17:23:28.912
                Noak gives 117 gold sovereigns to you.
                H: 4299 (100%), M: 4338 (91%) 16659w, 20365e 23% ex|cdb- 17:23:31.883(-75m, 1.6%) raise
                You raise an eyebrow questioningly.
                H: 4299 (100%), M: 4338 (91%) 16671w, 20395e 23% ex|cdb- 17:23:33.951
                Aspirant Noak says, "Sorry."
                H: 4299 (100%), M: 4188 (88%) 16641w, 20365e 23% ex|cdb- 17:23:36.900(-150m, 3.2%)
                Aspirant Noak says, "I couldn't resist."


                Hahah, that was worth a good laugh. Well played @Noak



                BluefJulesNoak
              15. RispokRispok Member Posts: 718 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                I just grabbed 255 gold after kill stealin from @Rip and he paid me 3000 gold. I see no problems here.
                RipKasa
              16. RipRip Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
                @Rispok, what goes around, comes around.  

                I "tried" to rob @Kasa the other month, (total failure), after which he told me he was going to hunt me down and slice off my face...(which he did...so nice.) We sparred afterwards and I gave him 30k for the lesson in fractures.

                RispokKasa
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