Welcome to the Achaea Forums! Please be sure to read the Forum Rules.

Honestly, what's the deal with gold grabbing?

12345679»

Comments

  • SarathaiSarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Vadimuses said:
    (because how many sane people will be manually bashing, walking, targeting for years on end?)
    I manually bashed, targeted and walked all the way to I think ~95 or so before I started using queueing to help with the actual attack part. I still target and walk manually, although targeting is a lot easier in places like Moghedu. One of the reasons I think I liked it so much on the way to dragon was for the fact that I could just do "st mhun" at the front entrance and proceed to hit my "maul &tar" alias until everything in each room was dead (Dun Fortress was "st ogre" and "st orc" - aliased to the [ and ] keys - while Tir Murann was "st vertani"). I knew exactly what should be in which room when I reached 99.

    On the other hand, I may or may not qualify as sane.

    Hate enchanting, though. I would quite happily use a script for that.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



    Kez
  • AalmAalm Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Tharvis said:
    Enchanting was fun for me as a magi, in the beginning. Then you got to the "I need x number of sigils!" and you sit there for hours staring at your screen, making your character dance around clapping like a seal and chanting things that sound like you're asking C'thulhu to return from Rlyeh.
    @Tharvis : C'thulhu : compassionate leadership for challenging times.
    Tharvis
  • VadimusesVadimuses Member Posts: 1,105 @ - Epic Achaean
    Sarathai said:
    Vadimuses said:
    (because how many sane people will be manually bashing, walking, targeting for years on end?)
    I manually bashed, targeted and walked all the way to I think ~95 or so before I started using queueing to help with the actual attack part. I still target and walk manually, although targeting is a lot easier in places like Moghedu. One of the reasons I think I liked it so much on the way to dragon was for the fact that I could just do "st mhun" at the front entrance and proceed to hit my "maul &tar" alias until everything in each room was dead (Dun Fortress was "st ogre" and "st orc" - aliased to the [ and ] keys - while Tir Murann was "st vertani"). I knew exactly what should be in which room when I reached 99.

    On the other hand, I may or may not qualify as sane.

    Hate enchanting, though. I would quite happily use a script for that.
    Yeah I'm talking about 100+, and remember that it doesn't scale linearly.
    Exelethril
  • NoakNoak Member Posts: 144 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Masaryk said:
    Meanwhile, in Achaea...

    Noak gets some gold sovereigns from a wyrmskin pack.
    H: 4299 (100%), M: 4413 (93%) 16677w, 20359e 23% x|cdb- 17:23:27.145
    Aspirant Noak (male Human).
    He is 161 years old, having been born on the 4th of Aeguary, 516 years after the fall of the
    Seleucarian Empire.
    He is ranked 375th in Achaea.
    He is an extremely credible character.
    He is not known for acts of infamy.
    He is a Sentry in Targossas.
    He is considered to be approximately 85% of your might.
    He is a mentor and able to take on proteges.
    His warcry: 'Scream, the demons are coming.'
    H: 4299 (100%), M: 4413 (93%) 16677w, 20359e 23% x|cdb- 17:23:27.400
    Noak's eyes gleam with generosity.
    H: 4299 (100%), M: 4413 (93%) 16677w, 20359e 23% x|cdb- 17:23:27.892
    You have recovered equilibrium. (4.94s)
    H: 4299 (100%), M: 4413 (93%) 16677w, 20359e 23% ex|cdb- 17:23:28.912
    Noak gives 117 gold sovereigns to you.
    H: 4299 (100%), M: 4338 (91%) 16659w, 20365e 23% ex|cdb- 17:23:31.883(-75m, 1.6%) raise
    You raise an eyebrow questioningly.
    H: 4299 (100%), M: 4338 (91%) 16671w, 20395e 23% ex|cdb- 17:23:33.951
    Aspirant Noak says, "Sorry."
    H: 4299 (100%), M: 4188 (88%) 16641w, 20365e 23% ex|cdb- 17:23:36.900(-150m, 3.2%)
    Aspirant Noak says, "I couldn't resist."


    Hahah, that was worth a good laugh. Well played @Noak
    I figured the way this thread went, that I had to do it. :smiley: 
    Masaryk
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    edited February 2015
    Vadimuses said:
    I can't speak for others but for the systems I've made, the reason they barely touched offensive is because that is where I felt the line was drawn.

    Tranquility's system came out, it wasn't banned, and that set the precedent that combat automation is okay. That was the chance right there to crack down on automation and ban it, if it wasn't going to be seen as something beneficial to the game. That system was also hella expensive and really boosted people into another level of combat, separating those who had it and those who don't - something I don't agree with, so I made affordable systems instead. I believed more people should have a chance at being good, and being good meant having a good system as a base and then starting to evolve your skills from there. I think that has worked well given anecdotal evidence, more people have a fighting chance now. The administration caught up to this idea many years later, but the amount of time it went on for suggests there were no problems seen with this approach of combat automation.

    Bashing, same thing, dor is where I drew the line. You've gotta target and walk manually. These days auto-targetters are fashionable and accepted, so that's cool.

    I think automation is part of what made the game today, because there are so many mind-numbing activities, it's ridiculous. I don't think anyone can argue that people would've loved to do old-style forging manually for hours on end by pressing a button. Getting Dragon is even worse, and in fact I see Achaea expanding above levels 100+ as a reward for the good amount of automation you've done (because how many sane people will be manually bashing, walking, targeting for years on end?). 

    That's what it comes down to, nobody wants to be doing the boring, mind-numbing stuff. The enchanting dances might be pretty cool, but I've seen a lotta Magi who are way more keen to just press a button after they do it by hand a hundred times. Nobody is automating rituals, player interaction, big & unique quests, and that's where the fun of interacting with the game is - not in the boring stuff that coincidentally lends itself to automation, but in the fun and interesting things that coincidentally isn't automatable.
    Oh, I'm speaking purely of PvP. The other stuff is an entirely different issue.

    And we would have banned combat automation but it's impossible to do so - there's no reliable way for us to tell whether someone is using automation in the midst of combat, so after a couple half-hearted attempts to fight it (laughable with today's systems, like inserting or removing random characters in affliction strings) we just gave up. Doesn't mean I'm a fan!
    Rip
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Cooper said:
    A p*ickly stingi*g overc*mes your body, fad*ng away into nu*bness.

    *****************************************************************.

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
        SiduriTrilliana
      1. AalmAalm Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
        edited February 2015
        This is starting to turn into the text version of censored Def Comedy Jam.

        You're ****************************** and your mama is **************************** what the ************** are you doing************, what the ******* you **************************** and you people can take your automation and **********************.

        I loved censored Def Comedy Jam.
      2. NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        edited February 2015
        To nitpick, I'd argue that you're vastly underestimating the fighting game community at large. They get pretty technical too. Achaea is basically a text fighting game, with less emphasis on position (though it's still there!) and more on state changes (though fighting games still have this as well!)
        ShirszaeSarapisSena
      3. SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Fighting games at high levels do seem to get pretty similar to Achaea, where 0.3 seconds is a long time, it gets formulaic enough that you can pretty much predict what someone will do well before they do it, and fights often come down to who makes a mistake first.

        Fighting games played by casual players (where button mashing can be enough to win) does still have an analogue in Achaea as well, in fights between novices who just barely know the basics of PvP, whether they use a curing system or not. Those sorts of fights unfortunately seem rarer these days (or maybe it's just that I'm just not in a position to notice them any more), but 3-4 years ago you could still find them somewhat regularly.
      4. AmarillysAmarillys Member Posts: 797 @ - Epic Achaean
        hey, I still button mash. When my combo breaks down I just start doing everything and hope my snake's loki gets through something that'll win. It's won me at least one spar.



      5. NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        To elaborate, the journey that the game itself, as your post suggests, made is one that, ideally speaking, every fighting game (and as per my previous post, every Achaean) player may eventually find themselves making.

        The problem is that, with fighting games, generally there are enough players that you could probably find people your skill level, if you tried.

        In Achaea, the player base is much smaller, but more significantly, the flux of new players is smaller still. The number of combatants roughly as good as you may be a small number throughout the game, and they might even be in different cities, houses, or whatever else.

        Therefore, it now feels like combat is this greatly technical thing, when it does still have its rough, press buttons and hope you win side to it. This is because the number of people fighting at a lower level are fairly limited, and seen as "works-in-progress" or even worse "non-combatants." This is not just in the number of players, but more severely, the willingness to compete as well.

        This is no unfortunate accident of affairs, either - the vast majority of low-skilled combatants are... not actually combatants at all, but people who aren't very interested in combat to begin with, and perhaps just know a few things for roleplay reasons, or because they tried to get into it but didn't like it, or because their faction has mandatory defense and militarization laws. If they were competitively interested on a regular basis, they would eventually break into the technical scene.

        The unfortunate accident of affairs (which is also no true accident, but we'll say it is) is that, as curing systems grew more advanced, killing people got a bit harder, thus requiring more upfront knowledge to even beat someone - especially affliction classes. There are still things like damaging people out that theoretically shouldn't work in a lot of cases but can in actual practice - especially against someone who doesn't know how to deal with it - but it's easy for people to dismiss these because it wouldn't work on @Jhui.

        (Admittedly, Nim does this a lot herself, but that's because both her and I, for our own varying reasons, like a challenge~)
      6. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        Amarillys said:
        hey, I still button mash. When my combo breaks down I just start doing everything and hope my snake's loki gets through something that'll win. It's won me at least one spar.

        I hear occultists have been using this method to great success.  Then again, they only need 1 button, so it's a bit easier.

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
          1. AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            edited February 2015
            Nim said:
            To nitpick, I'd argue that you're vastly underestimating the fighting game community at large. They get pretty technical too.

            I'm not really. I didn't say fighting games weren't technical, I said it was possible to enjoy them while not understanding any of the technicalities. A technical player who understands a fighting game's frame data and hitboxes will beat a button-masher every time, but a button-masher can still play and have fun without any of that knowledge.

            By contrast, button-mashing simply isn't an option in Achaea anymore, you have to understand the mechanics and act methodically, or you're just going to flail ineffectually at their automated curing. It is a higher bar of entry, but that has also shifted the focus to a more strategic style of play. Gone are the days where I lose and say "Man, that guy is just faster/better than me" and in are the days where I can go and pinpoint the deciding moment of a defeat and say "I see what you did there, you magnificent bastard. I'll be ready for that next time."

            I like both styles of play, which is why I've enjoyed Achaea throughout its existence.

            -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
            SarapisNizana
          2. CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            Achilles said:
            ended up reading the last few pages.  As one of the OG players who signed up for Achaea on dialup using telnet with a Juno email address to register this brings me way back.  1997 Achaea and 2015 Achaea is way different, could easily take a walk down memory lane for hours on this.

            For me, fighting manually with aliases and macros was a lot more fun way back then.  I used to go to a random computer lab in college during break between classes (broadband internet was so OPed, poor peasants on dialups are losers), spend a couple of minutes uploading some aliases onto a school computer and I could jump into combat right away.  To manage offense, sipping health or mana, cure afflictions, navigating around an area was intense.  Even when I left Achaea for almost 10 years I could still manually walk down the highway from Ashtan to Shallam (heck back in the day there wasn't even a too hasty message) when I logged back in in 2011.  People had it rough back then, we had to remember things on our own like phone numbers, directions to our text cities, where to meet up with friends at the mall at 10pm for a ride home.  

            Best part for the commoner is artefacts provided less of an advantage back then as no one super efficient with curing/balance/equilibrium queues to begin with so being able to cut .3s off your attack speed didn't really matter.

            But as Sarapis said, its not possible to ban automation in combat so its all moot these days.
            I started Achaea with Taku, my next door neighbor when I was 12. (2002/2003ish) There was little automotive healing gone around and I could easily kill all kinds of people with voyria/paralyze Longswords as infernal.

            Now personally, I loved old Achaea it wasn't so complex and I don't have to sit here for hours trying the figure out the best way to get around fitness so I can use damnation.

            On the other hand I was killing all kinds of people with para/voyria swords and delphinium arrows.

            To be fair I also only transed one skill throughout my alts which was a gift from ironbeard (for puppetry cause oblit op).
            I also got addicted to knight because it was the one class I could afford to use lessons in weaponry to parry head so axk+punch+punch+ didn't instantly kill me.

            But thinking back to it, I liked old Achaea because I was basically going around and bullying serpents that stole things. while not really standing a chance against wulfen/poergh (except on jester rip oblit)

            I like current achaea, because instead of playing a game with broken mechanics that honestly should have been fine tuned for balance along time ago (weaponry/forging/cause counting/dragon monk/ext ext)  

            We have a new game that actually lowers the bar some on the coding part, especially since there are so many free scripts for mudlet that can easily get you into combat. Let alone the many people in the game who are more than happy (usually) to help you with a problem you come up with in coding. and getting the balancing bar set. I'm honestly pretty sure every class is pretty equal in terms of power with no class that really outshines the others in every aspect.

            I just miss actual theft. Although im sure it was hard on newbies, it added people into the game to actually hunt down. Pickpocket I kinda feel bad about hunting them down because they didn't get enough to matter to start with

            Rip
          3. RipRip Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
            Why are we comparing Achaea to Chess? They are completely different styles of play.

            Don't let these old timers fool you, Achaea 17+ years ago, was a lot slower, had less cures/afflictions and there were 5 guilds...now there is what 20+ Houses, dragons, soon multiclass...everything has been sped up, everyone is doing multiple afflictions and it's constantly being revamped, redone or tweaked and so forth.

            I mean if every time I sat down to play a game of chess the rules were somehow tweaked and manipulated it would be very frustrating.  Good games shouldn't need constant attention to make them grand.  It's not like we put in another suit in a deck of cards...or make rooks able to fly.

            Just last week I learned I now have to apply health or sip health.  Oh and let's get rid of the vitality vials all together, let's add MORE afflictions for people to worry about.  None of these changes make Achaea any better, just more complex, and ruins all the previous balances.

            Every time one thing is adjusted it spikes something else.  Adding to a never-ending flux in play.  Sometimes I cringe when I see the new announcements...What game changing tweak is it going to be installed this week.

            Don't get me wrong I think many of the new changes are awesome, refining Achaea even more but...old Achaea vs. new Achaea, completely different games in terms of PvP combat.

            Now with server-side curing...people don't even learn to cure, just turn it on and go.  What's the point of having all these afflictions and cures if the system does it all for you.  Now we care about swapping curing priories...tricking the system and if you die, it's the servers fault.

            Automated Defenses is going to equal Automated Offenses.

            My last and final thought is this, aliases and macros are a form of automation, they automate typing.  Even IF everyone was manually doing everything anyone with a good alias/macro set up is going to stomp anyone else having to type out commands. "gg" vs. "get gold" 

            NimBluef
          4. NizanaNizana Member Posts: 68 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
            edited February 2015
            Ernam said:
            Amarillys said:
            hey, I still button mash. When my combo breaks down I just start doing everything and hope my snake's loki gets through something that'll win. It's won me at least one spar.

            I hear occultists have been using this method to great success.  Then again, they only need 1 button, so it's a bit easier.

            I resent this statement x.x I felt like a total pro, one day, while I was at school. I was like "You know.. Hecate is a bit OP.. I could just Attend, throw a couple moon/humbug combos and hecate. I get home, read the file on it, and realize "Oh.. no.. you need 5 affs to manage that."

            Okay, I say to myself. This'll be simple! Just back to my initial strategy of Instill/Leech -> Cadmus -> moon/humbug -> madness/hecate -> enlighten -> unravel.

            Great! Then I discovered the pain and agony of trying to keep track of passive, hidden curing. Ugh.. throws my entire strategy through a loop. Okay! I have Readaura to deal with that!

            (Mind you, I'm testing all of this without being attacked on a willing subject)

            He decided to attack me while I tried to do stuff.. The only thing I have manual control of is Instill. It's affs mix with the Leech, if I remember correctly. That means, probably, about half my afflictions are copies of what the leech put there initially because the spam of being beaten to death was too great. Add on passive curing, I never even got cadmus off before I was pulped.

            I'm a newbie trying to learn how to fight. After the time I spent on all of this I just tableflipped and said "**** it, I'm out!"

            While I agree that Occultists really only need one button (in actuality, it's about 5 if you don't use any other skills then what I listed. Less if you are script-savvy enough to have your offense track what stages you're at) it isn't as cut and dry for newbies. Maybe I need to send myself into an epileptic fit with multi-colored messages so that I can keep track of what is being cured so I know which aff I should instill next (since instills hit 2 cure-types). Who knows. Worst case, I'll import a bloody chat logger and have it log what they eat.

            Anyway, I was reading, saw a bunch of chat about combat, newbies, veterans, etc, and the comment from @Ernam hurt my soul.

            In Aetolia, my offense 'is' 1 button press with a ton of scripts and triggers to keep track of it... but in Aetolia, you can see everything they cure with trans vision. You can't here

            Edit: Oh, I'm not done trying to learn how to fight. It just gets frustrating because coming from Aetolia feels like I have to go backwards in time to a land where combat is actually a pain in the rear to keep track of for a not-so-script-savvy player. It actually feels more hardcore here -insert tired face-

          5. EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Rip said:

            I mean if every time I sat down to play a game of chess the rules were somehow tweaked and manipulated it would be very frustrating.  Good games shouldn't need constant attention to make them grand.  It's not like we put in another suit in a deck of cards...or make rooks able to fly.

            The only reason something like chess is  so static is that all the tweaking and refining happened centuries ago and eventually settled down  a form that people found good enough to pass down basically unchanged, and even now, different people do play with at least slightly different rules (time limits on moves, en passant allowed or not, etc). The standard deck of cards  pretty stable at this point, but people are always coming up with new games to play with them, or new  variants of old ones; if someone says, "Hey, let's play some poker," you're certainly going to need to ask some questions to know the rules of the specific game you're about to play.
            A game that doesn't need tweaking and adjusting  make it fun and fair is a nice ideal, but how often do you think someone lays out a set of rules for a new game and, after playtesting it for a while and getting feedback from a few thousand people, decides that they got it completely right and there's no  room for improvement?
            NimRip
          6. NizanaNizana Member Posts: 68 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
            Sorry about the mini-rant, by the way! No anger at @Ernam. Only frustrated with the feeling of an extreme lack of control when it comes to Occultist. Everything is so.. agonizingly.. random.. but hey, I opted in for the Chaos. This feels like chaos. :D

          7. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            edited February 2015
            Nizana said:
            Sorry about the mini-rant, by the way! No anger at @Ernam. Only frustrated with the feeling of an extreme lack of control when it comes to Occultist. Everything is so.. agonizingly.. random.. but hey, I opted in for the Chaos. This feels like chaos. :D

            It's not as random as you might think, when you learn to use symptoms (room messages) and expert diagnose.

            See: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/3234/expert-diagnose-tutorial

            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                Nizana
              1. RipRip Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
                @Eld, I agree with you but now a days...game designers feel it's acceptable to just "patch"...you buy a game and then you need to download a 4 gig fix...

                All I am saying is, yes Chess is an age old game and if I want to make rooks fly and pawns use arrows fine...it's an in-house rule.

                Changing and tweaking makes things out of balance, then you have to tweak and change things that are out of balance.  It's a never ending cycle.

                Here we have people automating getting gold when they walk around...should the game designers tweak and change how gold is gathered?  Maybe...

                (Sorry, trying my best to keep this on-topic)...

                There are TONS of versions of poker, but the deck remains the same...when games went from, actually "playing" them to "paying" for them...is where we all have a problem.

              2. KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 2,377 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Oh my god, I killed so many people in the old days with just Priest Judgement, because no one used trigs to stop it.
                (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
              3. SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
                Apropos to the automation discussion: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/25/a-google-computer-can-teach-itself-games/

                tl;dr: Computer starts learning how to play new games - no programmer knowledge on how to play that game necessary. http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/25/a-google-computer-can-teach-itself-games/
                SenaRipNizanaBluef
              4. KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,255 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Not an issue for Achaea. Fun Fact: Judgement Day was delayed indefinitely because Skynet tried to figure out how the weather code worked.

                ShirszaeRangorNizana
              5. RangorRangor Member Posts: 3,201 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                When can we start playing against bots Sarapis?
                image
              6. MasarykMasaryk Sangre PlainsMember Posts: 157 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                Rangor said:
                When can we start playing against bots Sarapis?
                Turn this sucka into Quake 3 Arena!



              Sign In to Comment.