Tradeskill split

Rispok

@Tecton or @Sarapis should be able to clear this up...

It was mentioned that if we are transcendent in forging at the moment, we might have two options. One option is to get instant transcendence in Armoursmithing and Weaponsmithing, the other to have our lessons directly refunded.

If these replacements are put as tradeskill 1 and 2, we are losing 350 lessons. If we get to learn a few other skills first, we could potentially be avoiding having to pay thousands of lessons. Like if I pick up Gathering and Inkmilling as 1 and 2, then use the free trade-in for 3 and 4, I'm paying 100cr for permits, sure, but I'm also saving 689 lessons. If I take it for skills 4 and 5, that's a savings of around 230 credits.

Any more information concerning this process would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Kendrick

You have to remember they're also expanding on PVE/Denizen combat a great deal, making more skills work against them and whatnot and trying to improve the way fighting them works by adjusting their aggro and whatnot. While yes, gaining a third combat skill will benefit some people less than others, there is always the chance that a significant portion of that skill could affect things outside of PVP.

Athelas

Is it a coincidence that non of the people that disagree with my earlier post are Druids?

#justsaying

Trevize

Athelas said:

Is it a coincidence that non of the people that disagree with my earlier post are Druids?

#justsaying

Nope, it's a conspiracy.

Denying curatives to any who defy Nature was neither effective nor a good idea. Cue alchemy.

Move tradeskills to another section and allowing others to harvest is not trying to force Druids to fight. You can still harvest. Or do whatever else you want. You actually have more options than before in terms of tradeskills.

New players? Let's see - they can pick up tradeskills, and more than they could before. Might check out quests while you're at it as well.

I disagreed because your post doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Blujixapug

Athelas said:

Concoctions are so much part of being a druid

I'm not sure what you meant by this, and I disagree with most of your post, but I think this is a good point. Concoctions is extremely important to the forestal identity and playstyle, because it encourages and rewards roaming and exploration. You want to search for ginseng in every little crevice of every forest, or irid moss in every cave, and along the way you learn the lay of the land. This type of globe-trotting and forest-walking is such a part of the forestal archetype, the D&D druid or Tolkien-esque ranger, and the mechanics of harvesting reinforce it through gameplay.

With it being separated from forestals, I hope there is something in the three replacement forestal skills that also encourages this type of roaming gameplay.

The introduction of Alchemy, destroyed the only mechanic forestalls had for protecting Nature, which was the denial of produce from Nature.

Herb bans were stupid.

I do think this - and the three skills which are to replace Concoctions, for druid, sentinel, and sylvan - provides a good opportunity to examine Extermination vs Nature conflict, and make it better. There are many threads with much written on that subject.

How would it effect a new player, when they can't earn an income with their class skills?

All classes can earn income with their class skills by bashing and questing.

Oceana

@Athelas‌ Concoctions is part of our RP, but it does not define a Druid. I do not worry for the class nor our house because of this change.

Sarathai

Athelas said:

Is it a coincidence that non of the people that disagree with my earlier post are Druids?

#justsaying

How would it effect a new player, when they can't earn an income with their class skills?

To be fair, I'm a Druid, and I haven't made money off Concoctions since, well, ever.

I use it to not spend money buying continual refills (except for ones involving diamond dust, which continues to be annoying, and occasionally venom sacs if I haven't killed any snakes recently). Most of all, though, I use it to replant when I'm around and somebody's decided to exterminate the Eastern Ithmia, or for some reason the entirety of Rheodad is on fire (again). I'll absolutely be re-transing it (both harvesting and creating elixirs) as a trade skill because I don't want to not have it, but that doesn't mean I'm doing so with the intent to make money.

I'm going to miss my sip bonus a lot, though, and will probably have to go and upgrade my sip ring once the class-Concoctions skill is gone. Unless the tradeskill includes a sip bonus, but I don't think it will. Or the new skill that goes in will have something similar, but who knows at this point.

Blujixapug

Oceana said:

Athelas‌ Concoctions is part of our RP, but it does not define a Druid. I do not worry for the class nor our house because of this change.

I can understand feeling like part of your identity is, "We are the stewards and wardens of Nature, and in return we alone reap the bounty of Nature. Her gifts are ours to mete out as we see fit." And now suddenly everyone is getting that toy.

But you can adapt your roleplay.

Trevize

Sarathai said:

I'm going to miss my sip bonus a lot, though, and will probably have to go and upgrade my sip ring once the class-Concoctions skill is gone. Unless the tradeskill includes a sip bonus, but I don't think it will. Or the new skill that goes in will have something similar, but who knows at this point.

The sip bonus will not be in the tradeskill.

I'd imagine something to help would be in the new skills, I'm looking for the same as an alchemist. We'll see soon(ish)!

Oceana

Blujixapug said:

Oceana said:

Athelas‌ Concoctions is part of our RP, but it does not define a Druid. I do not worry for the class nor our house because of this change.

I can understand feeling like part of your identity is, "We are the stewards and wardens of Nature, and in return we alone reap the bounty of Nature. Her gifts are ours to mete out as we see fit." And now suddenly everyone is getting that toy.

But you can adapt your roleplay.

I agree with the adapt part, but I have never thought that the bounty of Nature was for forestals only. Anyone can pick a flower! I do think that forestals appreciate and understand the bounty more, though.

Trevize

Oceana said:

Blujixapug said:

Oceana said:

Athelas‌ Concoctions is part of our RP, but it does not define a Druid. I do not worry for the class nor our house because of this change.

I can understand feeling like part of your identity is, "We are the stewards and wardens of Nature, and in return we alone reap the bounty of Nature. Her gifts are ours to mete out as we see fit." And now suddenly everyone is getting that toy.

But you can adapt your roleplay.

I agree with the adapt part, but I have never thought that the bounty of Nature was for forestals only. Anyone can pick a flower! I do think that forestals appreciate and understand the bounty more, though.

I know the sylvans (used to? not sure if they still do) have something where they can mix concoctions all their own, was very fun.

Might be a good chance to add something unique/fun like that to the House if you don't have something already. Something druid-only, that you can say THIS IS OURS.

Oceana

We do have something druid-only which ties in perfectly with our rp: harmony ritual and blessings.

Any sylvan able to comment on the other part?

Yae

@Athelas‌

Anyone can pick plants, anyone can throw together herbs in a pot and start boiling it. The part where I think the affinity with Nature counts is where the mixture actually turns into some sort of helpful elixir/salve, instead of some perturbing vegetable soup.

I don't feel like it infringes on our identity when it isn't just the forestal classes that swear undying loyalty to Nature. But, on another hand, if a serpent starts being able to talk to trees and flow through forests as some sort of spirit-like thing, I'd have to squint a little suspiciously at that.

I've found the skill to be an added benefit to the class in a primarily combat-influenced world, but not essential. In the present state of trade skills, not all classes have access to skills that allow them to earn an income beyond bashing.

I find the most sceptical thing about the post is that you've made it sound like concoctions is the focal part of being a druid. Concoctions has been part of our history forever, but it isn't really an essential part of being a druid (or sentinel or sylvan). What of our rituals, what of our love for Nature, or our ability to take in animal spirits and chatter insanely at plants? If picking plants and throwing them in pots to boil is our identity, I think we need to flesh out druid RP a little more.

And, aside from that, it's mentioned that players are allowed two trade skills without needing to buy a permit. So, they're free to spend their lessons to learn their class skills or two trade skills. They have a choice where they want to spend their lessons, and more choices than concoctions if they want to go that route.

Klendathu

Re the imminent destruction of the entire Achaean economy due to the combining of alchemical and forestal cures: no-one wants to go back to 150+ gold per bloodroot.

Athelas

@Yae Concoctions is far more than picking plants and throwing them in a pot. Just about every single action druids took when Athelas was a ward, revolved around the fact that Druids could create curatives from the various materials provided by Nature.

Harvesting, patrolling, and even groves were all part of protecting Nature and it's bounty. Now, when every Tom, Dick and Harry are let loose onto these resources, what kind of motivation is there for any of the above?

As I said! This change forces a redefinition of what it means to be a Druid in achaea.

@Oceana Evoking Harmony and doing yearly rituals isn't quite enough of an RP pull.

From a player perspective, it's far more attractive to be a serpent in Mhaldor, than being a Druid in Eleusis. Let's face it, it's far more fun to play a criminal than a hippy, and even though it's not the case with RP as a Druid, it is the perception.

It used to be that players would choose the Druid class, for the sake of the Concoctions skill. Those players grew into the RP around being a Druid. Sorry if that hurts any feelings, but that is the sad truth. Players choose classes based on what those classes can do. In the case of Druids, Concoctions was the major pull for players. The RP around being a Druid, was enforced by those who have been around for a while others like myself, who made a random choice and found the RP far more entertaining than the skills.

Back then, I'd log in and find 40 other druids in the realms. Today I'm lucky if I see 5. From where I'm standing, and what I understand, that happened when Alchemy was introduced. i.e. The pull for playing a Druid was reduced. Apologies if I'm wrong on that score though. If I am, please do take the time to enlighten me.

Until then, by my reckoning, with the addition of this change, there is zero motivation for a new player to even try the Druid class, and from there flows my concern for the house as a whole.

I'm as excited as everyone else about the possibility of a new skill and being able to have access to the trade skills of other classes. But I see a tough time for Druids as an entity in the game, if we want the Druid class to continue it's existence, we'll need something unique, competitive and fun, that makes playing the class both attractive and worth the effort.

Redwan

@Tecton‌, I'm not sure if this has already been covered or not, but will you be changing the syntax for things like harvesting and concotions? I really don't want to be in the position of having to re-write my scripts or, heaven forbid, having to change to a different client!

Grandue

Athelas said:
It used to be that players would choose the Druid class, for the sake of the Concoctions skill. 

False. Maybe this is true for you and I'm sure this is true for some others, but this is a sweeping statement that is completely wrong. I was a Druid for over 200 years, most of that time being spent in the Druid Guild, then Druid House. Most Druids didn't choose to be a Druid because of the concoctions skill and surprisingly only a handful of Druids would actually harvest or use their concoctions skill.

Athelas said:

Back then, I'd log in and find 40 other druids in the realms. Today I'm lucky if I see 5. From where I'm standing, and what I understand, that happened when Alchemy was introduced. i.e. The pull for playing a Druid was reduced. Apologies if I'm wrong on that score though. If I am, please do take the time to enlighten me.

This was the result of a handful of things. In the guild days, the Druid Guild thrived. More often than not I would log on to 20+ members. With the introduction of Houses, the number of Druids in the Druid House dwindled but the overall population of Druids actually went up as other houses welcomed them. The Druid population actually began to fall before the introduction of Alchemy with the introduction of Blademaster and some other changes in classes that made them more alluring to everyone while Druid still kind of sucked in combat. Alchemy did have an impact on the Druid population and it was kind of meant to, but not because people necessarily favored the class over Druid, but because they had to choose between leaving their city and house in order to be a Druid or just sticking with Alchemist.

Athelas said:

Until then, by my reckoning, with the addition of this change, there is zero motivation for a new player to even try the Druid class, and from there flows my concern for the house as a whole.

That is on you, homie. Of course there is going to be very little allure to a house that only accepts one class while other houses accept many classes, especially if that house doesn't do anything special to make up for it. When I left the Ancient Circle it was a bloody nightmare of a house. The women were a feeding frenzy of bloodlining, fighting back and forth over who could bloodline who, making up laws about what was the minimum age you could ask to bloodline a ward, all kinds drama, housefavors because of friendships instead of merit, huge egos and nothing to back them up, only 1-2 combatants in the whole house and everyone else had ZERO interest in it. I remember pulling my hair out trying to get the other leaders to fight instead of just stand by while the icon was torn down and then they refused to put it back up because it could possibly be torn down again in the future and they didn't want to fight then either. It was a snoozefest. I found myself hanging out with Sentinels and other classes and realized that their houses were nothing like the Druids and when I left it completely changed my view on Achaea. You can point fingers at the Garden and cry about the downfall of the Druid House because of the loss of concoctions or the introduction of Alchemy, but honestly man, you can't ask that you only have ONE class in a house and then ALSO be a sucky house on top of that and expect the Druid House to have any kind of volume to it. Maybe things have changed in the House since then. From the conversations I've had it doesn't look like it, but I could be wrong. 

Athelas said:

But I see a tough time for Druids as an entity in the game, if we want the Druid class to continue it's existence, we'll need something unique, competitive and fun, that makes playing the class both attractive and worth the effort.

I think this change is going to bring that. The Druid class was essentially cleared off the list of combatants because it does suck. Removing concoctions and adding a third skill that can actually be used for combat will change things quite a bit. I'm sure there were some who may have actually been interested in the RP of being a Druid but were uninterested in harvesting and didn't want to sacrifice a useful class skill for concoctions. The flavor of Druid combat is actually pretty bad ass, morphing into animals and teleporting through trees and shooting lightning from a staff and having a swarm of bees attack alongside you is awesome, it was a shame that it was difficult to fight using such flavor, but with the introduction of a third skill to compliment that, I see it as a huge bonus to the class and expect many more people to try it out, especially if it is now allowed in the other cities.

Kotaru

So the non-inclusion of bardiches in the Knight skillset means you're going to introduce a certain acrobatic glaive-wielding live-off-the-land class soon, right?

Oceana

Grandue said:

 Maybe things have changed in the House since then. From the conversations I've had it doesn't look like it, but I could be wrong. 

ftfy

Daklore

Athelas said:

@Yae Concoctions is far more than picking plants and throwing them in a pot. Just about every single action druids took when Athelas was a ward, revolved around the fact that Druids could create curatives from the various materials provided by Nature.

Harvesting, patrolling, and even groves were all part of protecting Nature and it's bounty. Now, when every Tom, Dick and Harry are let loose onto these resources, what kind of motivation is there for any of the above?

As I said! This change forces a redefinition of what it means to be a Druid in achaea.

@Oceana Evoking Harmony and doing yearly rituals isn't quite enough of an RP pull.

From a player perspective, it's far more attractive to be a serpent in Mhaldor, than being a Druid in Eleusis. Let's face it, it's far more fun to play a criminal than a hippy, and even though it's not the case with RP as a Druid, it is the perception.

It used to be that players would choose the Druid class, for the sake of the Concoctions skill. Those players grew into the RP around being a Druid. Sorry if that hurts any feelings, but that is the sad truth. Players choose classes based on what those classes can do. In the case of Druids, Concoctions was the major pull for players. The RP around being a Druid, was enforced by those who have been around for a while others like myself, who made a random choice and found the RP far more entertaining than the skills.

Back then, I'd log in and find 40 other druids in the realms. Today I'm lucky if I see 5. From where I'm standing, and what I understand, that happened when Alchemy was introduced. i.e. The pull for playing a Druid was reduced. Apologies if I'm wrong on that score though. If I am, please do take the time to enlighten me.

Until then, by my reckoning, with the addition of this change, there is zero motivation for a new player to even try the Druid class, and from there flows my concern for the house as a whole.

I'm as excited as everyone else about the possibility of a new skill and being able to have access to the trade skills of other classes. But I see a tough time for Druids as an entity in the game, if we want the Druid class to continue it's existence, we'll need something unique, competitive and fun, that makes playing the class both attractive and worth the effort.

I understand your frustration(?) and the fear you feel at change. You may not describe it as fear, but, it's the quickest and easiest definition available for me :P The Druid identity may be at risk, in your opinion, but this isn't the first time any player's "identity as they had RP'd it for a hundred years" has been in jeopardy. I defer you to the House Rennasaince. I can't speak for the non-Cyrenian cities, but I can speak from my experience of the Rennasaince in Cyrene, and it directly correlates what you feel with Druids.

Some Cyrenians quickly adapted, as some people are apt to do when change is upon them. Others struggled with it, unable to let go of the past, while others refused to acknowledge it. Daklore(and me by extension, since it also stretches to the ooc level) is somewhere between adapting and struggling. Daklore was a Warden of the Cerulean Spire for 200 years. And then poof, no more spire, all those traditions now just a page in the history book.

Now you are at this cross-road, your class identity is still there, it is still strong, and you will hopefully realize that it doesn't hinge on your class having complete and total control over herbs. You can still pursue a life of non-AvA(adventurer vs adventurer) combat while not having concoctions as a class skill, just as I can pursue a life of relative non-AvA(it's an OOC position, I'm not fond on AvA, but I still have to force myself to participate because it's my character's history, that is not going to change, because that is who Daklore is... and that's what RPing is about, being something you aren't necessarily). I don't need forging to be a Runewarden, or a member of the Vashnarian Shield, or Cyrenian, or someone who was and always will be a Warden of the Cerulean Spire.

... and i'm pretty sure this isn't even on topic

tl;dr: Trade skills good, losing concoctions is not the end of the world @athelas and you will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. Plenty of people have been at this same cross-road and pushed through.

Jacen

Am I missing something? Why are we talking about the impact of tradeskill changes on Houses that are going boom? (Or at least, won't be faced with their current class limitations)

Daklore

@jacen it made sense to me when I wrote it ... but I was less awake then. But the house changes were a lot of change to standing traditions and standard roleplay... just as athelas is stating losing concoctions as a class skill and being open to everyone will to do druids. Which it won't

Masaryk

Grandue said:

I think this change is going to bring that. The Druid class was essentially cleared off the list of combatants because it does suck. Removing concoctions and adding a third skill that can actually be used for combat will change things quite a bit. I'm sure there were some who may have actually been interested in the RP of being a Druid but were uninterested in harvesting and didn't want to sacrifice a useful class skill for concoctions. The flavor of Druid combat is actually pretty bad ass, morphing into animals and teleporting through trees and shooting lightning from a staff and having a swarm of bees attack alongside you is awesome, it was a shame that it was difficult to fight using such flavor, but with the introduction of a third skill to compliment that, I see it as a huge bonus to the class and expect many more people to try it out, especially if it is now allowed in the other cities.

I think this is exactly right. The Druid class has needed a change for quite a while. No longer are the days where we have a monopoly on herbs and elixirs, charging 100 gold per kola piece, etc. There are way too many other ways to make quick cash in the game outside of this. By use essentially sacrificing an entire skillset for harvesting, plus having many of our skills primarily centered around the grove, the ability to be a top-tier combatant as a druid was a real problem. Hopefully, this will balance things out a bit.

Vayne

I'm a bit hesitant about the combination of concoctions and transmutations, but I understand the redundancy of having two identical sets of cures. Will there be three related skills then: Harvesting, Synthesis, and Remedies?

Elixirs/Tonic and balms/salves seem to be easily imported to the new system but what about the minerals/herbs? Obviously, the new curatives cannot be either. Will they be pills? Powders? Flinstone chewables? or perhaps something generic like "paralysis" medicine.

Tecton

Vayne said:

I'm a bit hesitant about the combination of concoctions and transmutations, but I understand the redundancy of having two identical sets of cures. Will there be three related skills then: Harvesting, Synthesis, and Remedies?

Elixirs/Tonic and balms/salves seem to be easily imported to the new system but what about the minerals/herbs? Obviously, the new curatives cannot be either. Will they be pills? Powders? Flinstone chewables? or perhaps something generic like "paralysis" medicine.

It's just elixirs/tonics and balms/salves in the new skill. Herbs and minerals will still be distinct cures!

Daklore

Vayne said:

I'm a bit hesitant about the combination of concoctions and transmutations, but I understand the redundancy of having two identical sets of cures. Will there be three related skills then: Harvesting, Synthesis, and Remedies?

Elixirs/Tonic and balms/salves seem to be easily imported to the new system but what about the minerals/herbs? Obviously, the new curatives cannot be either. Will they be pills? Powders? Flinstone chewables? or perhaps something generic like "paralysis" medicine.

Pretty sure the herbs/minerals themselves will remain as is and will be unchanged, only the elixers/tonics and salves/balms will be standardized. So you'll still be able to chew on your rocks, or herbs, whichever you prefer for curing your standard afflictions. At least, that's what has been stated, anyway.

Tecton

Redwan said:

@Tecton‌, I'm not sure if this has already been covered or not, but will you be changing the syntax for things like harvesting and concotions? I really don't want to be in the position of having to re-write my scripts or, heaven forbid, having to change to a different client!

Not much will change there!

Tecton

Kotaru said:

So the non-inclusion of bardiches in the Knight skillset means you're going to introduce a certain acrobatic glaive-wielding live-off-the-land class soon, right?

"You are a full member of the Darth Maul class."

Vesios

Grandue said:

 When I left the Ancient Circle it was a bloody nightmare of a house. The women were a feeding frenzy of bloodlining, fighting back and forth over who could bloodline who, making up laws about what was the minimum age you could ask to bloodline a ward, all kinds drama, housefavors because of friendships instead of merit, huge egos and nothing to back them up, only 1-2 combatants in the whole house and everyone else had ZERO interest in it. I remember pulling my hair out trying to get the other leaders to fight instead of just stand by while the icon was torn down and then they refused to put it back up because it could possibly be torn down again in the future and they didn't want to fight then either. It was a snoozefest. 

Since I joined in middle-late-ish November, the main "theme" of the House, as I've gathered it to be, is a focus on promoting the growth and preservation of Nature. Patrolling, quick responses to exterminations and fires, etc.

Vesios was approached about bloodlining from two people, one of which wasn't even in the Circle, and the other was his mentor. Aelyn approached him about it when he was age 22 and roughly four years into his Aspiranthood, and only mentioned it after an interview for his scholar path. It was a backseat, after the fact thing that happened once the important stuff - his interview - had been 100% completed. Concerning city/housefavours, he's been cityfavoured once for good behavior and helpfulness (at least, that's what I assume it was for, I was never given the reason  ). I can't even remember if he was ever housefavoured, so if he was it means it wasn't a willy-nilly thing. I rarely see favours given out in the house logs when I read them.

Obviously, all of this only concerns my character and I can't speak for anyone else, but if it represents the overall behavior and theme of the House - and I think it does, personally - then the Circle has definitely improved and gotten its act together since you were a member.

Concerning combat, it's no big secret that Druid isn't a big combatant class. I'm slowly trying to get into it, but it's a combination of trying to figure out what actually works and my own noobishness. There are magical people like @Yae who have proven and continue to prove that it is possible. I've heard many things regarding the Druid's potential; that it's a beast with artefacts; that it absolutely excels in group combat, between hydra, wyvern and groves. But the fact remains that when people talk about "best combat classes", there is absolutely zero mention of Druid. And when it does come up in those circles, it's as a joke: "is this even a class", etc.

I can't say I'm surprised, but at the same time it's just a tad bit saddening.

There aren't many Druid combatants in the House. We do try to make up for it with things only we can do, or things we are exceedingly good at. Things like resurrections, harmony blessings, rejuvenations. Concoctions was part of that, but we're losing it. At the same time though, that simple fact fills me with hope.

All trade skills are being removed from all classes, so Druids will 100% get either a combat-focused or utility-focused skill in exchange for Concoctions. We will be one of the last classes to get our new skill; @Tecton replied to my earlier question saying everything related to forestals was still on the drawing board. I'm actually pleased with that, because it means they're taking their time and trying to figure out the conundrum of how to make the Druid class work. Between that new skill and the Renaissance, which will kill the Circle and its 400 years of history but at the same time potentially make something equally exciting, something that'll hopefully bring in new members with new skills and ideas, I have to say I'm hopeful. In my mind, at least, what we're potentially getting at this point far outweighs what we're losing.

Sarathai

Masaryk said:

By use essentially sacrificing an entire skillset for harvesting, plus having many of our skills primarily centered around the grove, the ability to be a top-tier combatant as a druid was a real problem. Hopefully, this will balance things out a bit.

I vote for an ability in the new skillset that breaks shields so I can maul more. My envy for razeslash knows no bounds.

(Are there clear concepts for the new class skills down yet? Probably not abilities, but concepts would be nice to hear about.)

Anyway.

Some people will want to still be tri-trans and keep all their harvesting, and there's a cost to doing that. It seems like you're quite able to keep harvesting and such, as long as you don't want the third class skill. Which is also fine. Three skills, one new one added, so there'll be some picking and choosing by necessity.

Who's going plants against minerals is a very interesting question, I think. As well as what it'll mean for cities, the classes they allow and so on.