Its ridiculous that I can spend two hours extracting and transmutating in the lab, only to make about 30k (if that), and that's on bulk minerals like potash without discounts. It's quite disappointing.
Are you actually whining about a skill that allows you to make money while absolutely AFK?
I think what Addama is trying to say there is that once it's in a shop, that's all the effort you've put into it. It sits there to make you money while you go doing other stuff. And I partially agree with that, though I understand wanting to put in a fair cost for the time and energy you spent making or harvesting them. However, the idea of price setting for herbs/minerals by an organization seems like a really easy way to essentially smash the economy, as if everyone actually followed Oakstone's list, Oakstone could easily jack the price up and everyone would either pay it or, well, switch to mineral cures instead. Kaiu will cry if I eat rocks, though, so I just want herbs to stay fairly priced!
Its ridiculous that I can spend two hours extracting and transmutating in the lab, only to make about 30k (if that), and that's on bulk minerals like potash without discounts. It's quite disappointing.
Are you actually whining about a skill that allows you to make money while absolutely AFK?
Yes I am. I've died too many bloody times while in the lab NOT EVEN WHILE AFK just multitasking, and I hate having to sit there for two hours doing nothing while my character is basically incapacitated. Its terrible. I'd rather be out gathering.
What I'm trying to say is, unlike clothing, jewelry or food, curatives are made in bulk by the hundreds/thousands. It's trivial to script something that pumps out a thousand potash in one sitting. And then you have your resource which is then sold for gold. Yes, extracting is a factor in this and you can't do it AFK, but you can cheaply buy primes off lowbies and basically never leave the lab.
It's because of this that the prices on them are so disgustingly low; it's because players can become semi-AFK factories that the supply so grossly overwhelms demand and drives down prices. But I've never seen an Alchemist complain that this is the problem; they only ever complain that the prices, as if set by people who don't produce the curatives, are too low.
Will the serverside curing system be updated to allow for Dedication/Continuation (the paralysis cures) or is this something we'll have to script ourselves?
I have nothing but amazement that people are prepared to willingly spend 2 real life hours doing nothing other than hitting their "make some potash" hotkey so that scrubs like me can pay 6 gold per. Don't stop doing it, obv!
Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
Will it be possible to 'power level' forging by just doing clubs and bucklers? What mechanics can we expect to deter this kind of abuse?
I forget who, but someone official stated before that clubs are getting buhleeted.
Yes, clubs are being removed.
Is there an actual reason for this other than clubs being useless? Because halberds, bardiches, and maces are also useless, because they're far outclassed by other weapons. That could be changed with the new static stats, but the same is true of clubs.
If there's not some reason that having clubs available is problematic, I think they should stay in, because more options (even useless ones) is nice to have. And at least two people that I know of have spent credits on useless artefact weapons (halberds) just for the flavour.
I was thinking that clubs could be the shortsword equivalent for dual-blunt knights (really high to-hit for newbies, otherwise not very good).
Actually, halberds, bardiches, and maces are all disappearing as well. They may be back some time in the future, but for now, we'll just keep forging dedicated to things that are useful.
There will be "training" versions of the different weapons available from denizens, which sacrifice damage/speed for to-hit, allowing for higher accuracy at lower skill levels.
I would adore some actual research on this. Heck, Lis would help FUND it, I bet, should anyone ask her.
I started doing some, but realised that I'm not really knowledgeable enough on what gets used - for instance, I know potash will be popular, but I have no idea where realgar, antimony, and aurum (to pick three at random) will fall on a scale.
There are a few other considerations, too. For example, potash (1 sulphur, 1 gold, 1 silver [= 1 sulphur, 1 mercury]) costs less in terms of raw primes than quicksilver (2 mercury, 1 silver [= 1.5 mercury]) - but it uses two different primes, which is more helpful to me because I can extract all three in a room. In addition, every tonic/balm uses mercury.
I tried to make a spreadsheet where I can input the number of each prime which I have, and get out the number of each mineral/balm/tonic I can make*, along with how much of each prime I need to synthesise to each ametal in order to get the maximum of that mineral - but slowed down when I realised that I can't remember the maths which I did about ten years ago (and that was relatively simple examples, as I recall, so I'm not sure how easily I could adapt it straight to this), and have stopped with the advent of the trade skill split, because I'm not sure whether I'll have the relevant skills (I'd like to keep them, but I'll look at whether the market becomes flooded: I believe curatives in Aet sell for 1gp per, and I cannot in any way be bothered with it for that price).
*The relevance of this is that it would give me a more even keel on which to judge the "value" of each mineral before combat use. As it is now, the "value" is just how many primes I need to make it, not taking into account that I'd rather spend one each of salt and sulphur than two mercury.
So, I am quite affected by this change. I am not quite nearly omni-trans, but the brunt of what Renoir enjoys doing are her trade skills. She's a Jester, so she's not getting this swap skill thing(yet... we do make bombs) But her enjoyment is in Tailoring, Jewellery, and Cooking. As is stands, she is losing those three, along with Gathering and Inkmilling. She doesn't mind the loss of Inkmilling, as she's never done it, but she is now torn between two options.
A ) Re-obtain all four remaining skills. The three license skills, and gathering. She is receiving about 3400 lessons, and needs 3800 lessons and 100cr to have all four skills. So, that will cost her 260cr, including the cost of lessons. B ) Give up on Cooking and Gathering, and relent to paying others to make her cupcakes that she relies on for sustenance. This will only cost her just under 1400 lessons, so she'll have a bunch of lessons for when some tradeskill she wants more comes about, but she's losing 200cr in a license token she may never be able to use.
@tecton: Is there any plans for a refund, even partial for license tokens for those in situations like Renoir, where just the tradeskills, no class skills are leaving her in a situation where forced to choose between investing a large amount of credits to stay slightly worse off than she was, or just lose out on about as much resources?
Will it be possible to 'power level' forging by just doing clubs and bucklers? What mechanics can we expect to deter this kind of abuse?
I forget who, but someone official stated before that clubs are getting buhleeted.
Yes, clubs are being removed.
Is there an actual reason for this other than clubs being useless? Because halberds, bardiches, and maces are also useless, because they're far outclassed by other weapons. That could be changed with the new static stats, but the same is true of clubs.
If there's not some reason that having clubs available is problematic, I think they should stay in, because more options (even useless ones) is nice to have. And at least two people that I know of have spent credits on useless artefact weapons (halberds) just for the flavour.
I was thinking that clubs could be the shortsword equivalent for dual-blunt knights (really high to-hit for newbies, otherwise not very good).
Actually, halberds, bardiches, and maces are all disappearing as well. They may be back some time in the future, but for now, we'll just keep forging dedicated to things that are useful.
There will be "training" versions of the different weapons available from denizens, which sacrifice damage/speed for to-hit, allowing for higher accuracy at lower skill levels.
Should throw Halberd and Bardiche in two hander spec, @Tecton.
Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!" Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh." Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."
I thought we'd have to wait months for this. I'm stoked to have it starting so soon! I know there are a lot of adjustments to make and some people are going to be unhappy, but that's always the way with changes. thanks for getting this done so quickly @Tecton
Yeah, not sure why halberd and bardiche can't be lumped in with other two-handed weapons. Also, can we get massive two-handed axes? Likewise, I'm not sure what makes maces (two-handed and one-handed versions) out of place.
I'm sorry, what? How is tailoring or jewellery or cooking screwing the game economy exactly? I am not talking about swords and shit, I am talking about a part of the game that we have already paid 200 credits plus lessons to play, a part of the game that effects no game mechanics at all, and is essentially a gold sink for people who want to make their character look pretty/sparkly/dark and broody, whatever.
Yeah, I don't think expecting to make any kind of money off those skills makes any sense. Probably going to work as well as trying to enforce an enchantment treaty now, if your only hope of making money is praying that someone else won't craft the same thing for free or even at cost.
Given how unessential these skills are, I am also surprised that they are being lumped in with these skills. Any proper min-maxer should dump them and get something that would actually help you. This thread already has had someone mention how they craft these things, put them in shops, and have lost tons of gold. It doesn't really sound like they're in it for the money.
If those skills didn't help you, nobody would want the products of them. People want them because they help them feel good: folks like to wear things that distinguish them from others. It's no different from real life. Nobody needs $2000 suits irl, but people buy them and they are trade just as much as water or wheat is. Similarly, in the new forging, nobody needs terrifying, radiant longsword, but I guarantee you that some people will pay a lot more for them than they will for a simple, dented longsword, even though they do exactly the same thing as far as game mechanics are concerned.
Its ridiculous that I can spend two hours extracting and transmutating in the lab, only to make about 30k (if that), and that's on bulk minerals like potash without discounts. It's quite disappointing.
Are you actually whining about a skill that allows you to make money while absolutely AFK?
Yes I am. I've died too many bloody times while in the lab NOT EVEN WHILE AFK just multitasking, and I hate having to sit there for two hours doing nothing while my character is basically incapacitated. Its terrible. I'd rather be out gathering.
I've died too many bloody times while in the lab NOT EVEN WHILE AFK just multitasking,
NOT EVEN WHILE AFK just multitasking
multitasking
Okay, sorry, are you actually whining about a skill that allows you to make money while doing other things?
Its ridiculous that I can spend two hours extracting and transmutating in the lab, only to make about 30k (if that), and that's on bulk minerals like potash without discounts. It's quite disappointing.
Are you actually whining about a skill that allows you to make money while absolutely AFK?
Yes I am. I've died too many bloody times while in the lab NOT EVEN WHILE AFK just multitasking, and I hate having to sit there for two hours doing nothing while my character is basically incapacitated. Its terrible. I'd rather be out gathering.
I've died too many bloody times while in the lab NOT EVEN WHILE AFK just multitasking,
NOT EVEN WHILE AFK just multitasking
multitasking
Okay, sorry, are you actually whining about a skill that allows you to make money while doing other things?
Yes. I don't want to be multitasking. I want to be hunting. I want to be exploring. I want to be sailing. I DONT WANT TO BE SITTING IN THE CITY LAB FOR TWO HOURS.
Oh, I do. There's no way I'd be walking around with a pitted, rusted scimitar either any more than I walk around in real life with stained, moth-eaten clothes.
Oh, I do. There's no way I'd be walking around with a pitted, rusted scimitar either any more than I walk around in real life with stained, moth-eaten clothes.
I'd walk around with a pitted, rusted scimitar just to make people laugh until they died a short time later. "How'd you die?" "Tetanus."
I am retired and log into the forums maybe once every 2 months. It was a good 20 years, live your best lives, friends.
Its ridiculous that I can spend two hours extracting and transmutating in the lab, only to make about 30k (if that), and that's on bulk minerals like potash without discounts. It's quite disappointing.
Are you actually whining about a skill that allows you to make money while absolutely AFK?
Yes I am. I've died too many bloody times while in the lab NOT EVEN WHILE AFK just multitasking, and I hate having to sit there for two hours doing nothing while my character is basically incapacitated. Its terrible. I'd rather be out gathering.
I've died too many bloody times while in the lab NOT EVEN WHILE AFK just multitasking,
NOT EVEN WHILE AFK just multitasking
multitasking
Okay, sorry, are you actually whining about a skill that allows you to make money while doing other things?
Yes. I don't want to be multitasking. I want to be hunting. I want to be exploring. I want to be sailing. I DONT WANT TO BE SITTING IN THE CITY LAB FOR TWO HOURS.
Then do all those things! Literally nobody is stopping you.
Yeah, not sure why halberd and bardiche can't be lumped in with other two-handed weapons. Also, can we get massive two-handed axes? Likewise, I'm not sure what makes maces (two-handed and one-handed versions) out of place.
Exhibit A:
Don't worry, this isn't the last you'll see of most of these weapons!
So, I am quite affected by this change. I am not quite nearly omni-trans, but the brunt of what Renoir enjoys doing are her trade skills. She's a Jester, so she's not getting this swap skill thing(yet... we do make bombs) But her enjoyment is in Tailoring, Jewellery, and Cooking. As is stands, she is losing those three, along with Gathering and Inkmilling. She doesn't mind the loss of Inkmilling, as she's never done it, but she is now torn between two options.
A ) Re-obtain all four remaining skills. The three license skills, and gathering. She is receiving about 3400 lessons, and needs 3800 lessons and 100cr to have all four skills. So, that will cost her 260cr, including the cost of lessons. B ) Give up on Cooking and Gathering, and relent to paying others to make her cupcakes that she relies on for sustenance. This will only cost her just under 1400 lessons, so she'll have a bunch of lessons for when some tradeskill she wants more comes about, but she's losing 200cr in a license token she may never be able to use.
@tecton: Is there any plans for a refund, even partial for license tokens for those in situations like Renoir, where just the tradeskills, no class skills are leaving her in a situation where forced to choose between investing a large amount of credits to stay slightly worse off than she was, or just lose out on about as much resources?
It sounds like they may include the permit with the token or a refund on the tokens or possibly even both from previous similar questions
I'm sorry, what? How is tailoring or jewellery or cooking screwing the game economy exactly? I am not talking about swords and shit, I am talking about a part of the game that we have already paid 200 credits plus lessons to play, a part of the game that effects no game mechanics at all, and is essentially a gold sink for people who want to make their character look pretty/sparkly/dark and broody, whatever.
Yeah, I don't think expecting to make any kind of money off those skills makes any sense. Probably going to work as well as trying to enforce an enchantment treaty now, if your only hope of making money is praying that someone else won't craft the same thing for free or even at cost.
Given how unessential these skills are, I am also surprised that they are being lumped in with these skills. Any proper min-maxer should dump them and get something that would actually help you. This thread already has had someone mention how they craft these things, put them in shops, and have lost tons of gold. It doesn't really sound like they're in it for the money.
If those skills didn't help you, nobody would want the products of them. People want them because they help them feel good: folks like to wear things that distinguish them from others. It's no different from real life. Nobody needs $2000 suits irl, but people buy them and they are trade just as much as water or wheat is. Similarly, in the new forging, nobody needs terrifying, radiant longsword, but I guarantee you that some people will pay a lot more for them than they will for a simple, dented longsword, even though they do exactly the same thing as far as game mechanics are concerned.
Then, if they're exactly the same, make them cost 50 credits a permit like the rest, instead of 200
I'm sorry, what? How is tailoring or jewellery or cooking screwing the game economy exactly? I am not talking about swords and shit, I am talking about a part of the game that we have already paid 200 credits plus lessons to play, a part of the game that effects no game mechanics at all, and is essentially a gold sink for people who want to make their character look pretty/sparkly/dark and broody, whatever.
Yeah, I don't think expecting to make any kind of money off those skills makes any sense. Probably going to work as well as trying to enforce an enchantment treaty now, if your only hope of making money is praying that someone else won't craft the same thing for free or even at cost.
Given how unessential these skills are, I am also surprised that they are being lumped in with these skills. Any proper min-maxer should dump them and get something that would actually help you. This thread already has had someone mention how they craft these things, put them in shops, and have lost tons of gold. It doesn't really sound like they're in it for the money.
If those skills didn't help you, nobody would want the products of them. People want them because they help them feel good: folks like to wear things that distinguish them from others. It's no different from real life. Nobody needs $2000 suits irl, but people buy them and they are trade just as much as water or wheat is. Similarly, in the new forging, nobody needs terrifying, radiant longsword, but I guarantee you that some people will pay a lot more for them than they will for a simple, dented longsword, even though they do exactly the same thing as far as game mechanics are concerned.
Then, if they're exactly the same, make them cost 50 credits a permit like the rest, instead of 200
Sure, if you're ok with only ever producing pre-set patterns, and never producing your own.
The one salient difference between those three and the others is that those three are MUCH cheaper for what you get: almost unlimited admin time.
Then do all those things! Literally nobody is stopping you.
I am beginning to think you are willfully not understanding his point.
His point is so superficial - that he doesn't make enough money doing the thing he chooses to do - that I probably should've just said that ("Then do (other | all those) things! Literally nobody is stopping you.") in the first place.
Especially after these changes, nobody, regardless of class, is forced to do any one thing for money. You choose to do it, and if you don't like doing it, you go off and do another thing.
Yeah, not sure why halberd and bardiche can't be lumped in with other two-handed weapons. Also, can we get massive two-handed axes? Likewise, I'm not sure what makes maces (two-handed and one-handed versions) out of place.
Exhibit A:
Bardiche is basically a massive two-handed axe, more or less. @Mayapple rocks them.
I'm sorry, what? How is tailoring or jewellery or cooking screwing the game economy exactly? I am not talking about swords and shit, I am talking about a part of the game that we have already paid 200 credits plus lessons to play, a part of the game that effects no game mechanics at all, and is essentially a gold sink for people who want to make their character look pretty/sparkly/dark and broody, whatever.
Yeah, I don't think expecting to make any kind of money off those skills makes any sense. Probably going to work as well as trying to enforce an enchantment treaty now, if your only hope of making money is praying that someone else won't craft the same thing for free or even at cost.
Given how unessential these skills are, I am also surprised that they are being lumped in with these skills. Any proper min-maxer should dump them and get something that would actually help you. This thread already has had someone mention how they craft these things, put them in shops, and have lost tons of gold. It doesn't really sound like they're in it for the money.
If those skills didn't help you, nobody would want the products of them. People want them because they help them feel good: folks like to wear things that distinguish them from others. It's no different from real life. Nobody needs $2000 suits irl, but people buy them and they are trade just as much as water or wheat is. Similarly, in the new forging, nobody needs terrifying, radiant longsword, but I guarantee you that some people will pay a lot more for them than they will for a simple, dented longsword, even though they do exactly the same thing as far as game mechanics are concerned.
Then, if they're exactly the same, make them cost 50 credits a permit like the rest, instead of 200
Sure, if you're ok with only ever producing pre-set patterns, and never producing your own.
The one salient difference between those three and the others is that those three are MUCH cheaper for what you get: almost unlimited admin time.
I understand what you're saying. We get to create custom patterns that we envision. We have the unique opportunity to truly add things to the flavor of the game. But these original trade skills also have downfalls.
One thing that I feel has happened in the years since I became a tailor/jeweller/cook though is the cost of creating and maintaining patterns has become really prohibitive to making any thing off the skillsets whatsoever. 200 credits for a license, all the lessons to trans it, all the comms to make the items, and then the cost of creating, submitting and maintaining those patterns doesn't equal the proofreading services we're offered that help manage the system, especially when there are routine complaints about how patterns are handled, questions about style that keep coming up, and general snark coming out of the Craft Guild at times.
I'm not bashing the lovely Amarisse or her assistants (they're great - they are why we can do what we do). I only mention this because if we're making comparisons between the trade skillsets themselves, then yes you get a lot with tailoring, jewellery, and cooking but those also come with a lot of pitfalls and headaches too that the others do not, the least of which may actually be making a profit off the skillset.
Comments
It's because of this that the prices on them are so disgustingly low; it's because players can become semi-AFK factories that the supply so grossly overwhelms demand and drives down prices. But I've never seen an Alchemist complain that this is the problem; they only ever complain that the prices, as if set by people who don't produce the curatives, are too low.
Will the serverside curing system be updated to allow for Dedication/Continuation (the paralysis cures) or is this something we'll have to script ourselves?
There will be "training" versions of the different weapons available from denizens, which sacrifice damage/speed for to-hit, allowing for higher accuracy at lower skill levels.
There are a few other considerations, too. For example, potash (1 sulphur, 1 gold, 1 silver [= 1 sulphur, 1 mercury]) costs less in terms of raw primes than quicksilver (2 mercury, 1 silver [= 1.5 mercury]) - but it uses two different primes, which is more helpful to me because I can extract all three in a room. In addition, every tonic/balm uses mercury.
I tried to make a spreadsheet where I can input the number of each prime which I have, and get out the number of each mineral/balm/tonic I can make*, along with how much of each prime I need to synthesise to each ametal in order to get the maximum of that mineral - but slowed down when I realised that I can't remember the maths which I did about ten years ago (and that was relatively simple examples, as I recall, so I'm not sure how easily I could adapt it straight to this), and have stopped with the advent of the trade skill split, because I'm not sure whether I'll have the relevant skills (I'd like to keep them, but I'll look at whether the market becomes flooded: I believe curatives in Aet sell for 1gp per, and I cannot in any way be bothered with it for that price).
*The relevance of this is that it would give me a more even keel on which to judge the "value" of each mineral before combat use. As it is now, the "value" is just how many primes I need to make it, not taking into account that I'd rather spend one each of salt and sulphur than two mercury.
A ) Re-obtain all four remaining skills. The three license skills, and gathering. She is receiving about 3400 lessons, and needs 3800 lessons and 100cr to have all four skills. So, that will cost her 260cr, including the cost of lessons.
B ) Give up on Cooking and Gathering, and relent to paying others to make her cupcakes that she relies on for sustenance. This will only cost her just under 1400 lessons, so she'll have a bunch of lessons for when some tradeskill she wants more comes about, but she's losing 200cr in a license token she may never be able to use.
@tecton: Is there any plans for a refund, even partial for license tokens for those in situations like Renoir, where just the tradeskills, no class skills are leaving her in a situation where forced to choose between investing a large amount of credits to stay slightly worse off than she was, or just lose out on about as much resources?
Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."
Exhibit A:
Okay, sorry, are you actually whining about a skill that allows you to make money while doing other things?
"How'd you die?" "Tetanus."
Especially after these changes, nobody, regardless of class, is forced to do any one thing for money. You choose to do it, and if you don't like doing it, you go off and do another thing.
One thing that I feel has happened in the years since I became a tailor/jeweller/cook though is the cost of creating and maintaining patterns has become really prohibitive to making any thing off the skillsets whatsoever. 200 credits for a license, all the lessons to trans it, all the comms to make the items, and then the cost of creating, submitting and maintaining those patterns doesn't equal the proofreading services we're offered that help manage the system, especially when there are routine complaints about how patterns are handled, questions about style that keep coming up, and general snark coming out of the Craft Guild at times.
I'm not bashing the lovely Amarisse or her assistants (they're great - they are why we can do what we do). I only mention this because if we're making comparisons between the trade skillsets themselves, then yes you get a lot with tailoring, jewellery, and cooking but those also come with a lot of pitfalls and headaches too that the others do not, the least of which may actually be making a profit off the skillset.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea