Tradeskill split

Xith

Khaibit said:

Xith said:

Khaibit said:

Jules said:

Khaibit said:

@ tecton I can't understand why tailoring/jewellery/cooking are being lumped in the same set as potions, lotions, forging and enchantments. They are not the same thing. No one has ever died due to a lack of a snazzy scarf or pretty bracelet. They are purely an rp thing and have nothing to do with being 'self sufficient' I could walk around butt naked and it wouldn't have any effect on my bashing or pk. Why not just split them so that the crafter skills are not fucked up by wanting to buy the ability to make concoctions?

Khaibit, I think it's more to do with making your trade actually rare and valuable enough to other players for there to be some profit in that trade.  I'm finding myself wishing that they would maintain flat fees to learn trades, and simply put a hard cap on the number you can learn though.   

It's going to have quite the opposite effect. People are already planing to buy the concoction type skills in droves.
Craft skills were never really about making oodles of cash, they are pretty much picked by people who like designing things, rather than people who want to make money. 

I gotta be honest, I think they should have tried harder to make money if the money/cost is any concern now. If they didn't care about the money, they shouldn't mind the extra cost.

If you look at your credit/lesson investment in the tradeskills like a loan, then each successive skill you take will take longer to pay itself off.
At 6000/credit, a 115cr miniskill is about 690,000 gold invested. If you sell a sword and make 1000 profit (I hope you would for something like a sword), you'll make it back in 690 swords. If you make 3000 in profit per sword, you only have to sell 230 swords. Then divide that by the number of swords you sell per Achaean year (4), and you're paid off in 57 years. You make your money back faster if you can sell more weapons per year, but you're also competing with sellers who will try to undercut the prices, the same people who are doing it as a luxury and don't care about their payoff.

They are probably people who took it as their 3rd, 4th, or 5th skill out of boredom or whatever reason. They're paying a tax to achaea to make up for their probable screwing of the game economy. So long story short, the more you charge other players, the less you're paying Achaea.



tl;dr - don't undersell and the investments won't be hard on you

I'm sorry, what? How is tailoring or jewellery or cooking screwing the game economy exactly?
I am not talking about swords and shit, I am talking about a part of the game that we have already paid 200 credits plus lessons to play, a part of the game that effects no game mechanics at all, and is essentially a gold sink for people who want to make their character look pretty/sparkly/dark and broody, whatever.

The 200cr I think has to do with the people reviewing designs for you. That's why the license costs are remaining after all.

Sena

Tecton said:

Actually, halberds, bardiches, and maces are all disappearing as well. They may be back some time in the future, but for now, we'll just keep forging dedicated to things that are useful.

I love halberds, I was looking forward to be one of the only weaponsmiths specialising in them. Even though they were crap (and they don't have to be, now), I still bought and used an artefact halberd, and was planning on buying one again (I traded it in years ago to fund a class change) after multiclass. Plenty of people have intentionally used useless weapons for various reasons, or found ways to make good use of weapons that everyone thought were useless. Removing them completely seems a huge waste, even if they'll be back eventually.

Nexes

Sarapis said:

Nexes said:

Khaibit said:

I'm sorry, what? How is tailoring or jewellery or cooking screwing the game economy exactly?
I am not talking about swords and shit, I am talking about a part of the game that we have already paid 200 credits plus lessons to play, a part of the game that effects no game mechanics at all, and is essentially a gold sink for people who want to make their character look pretty/sparkly/dark and broody, whatever.

Yeah, I don't think expecting to make any kind of money off those skills makes any sense. Probably going to work as well as trying to enforce an enchantment treaty now, if your only hope of making money is praying that someone else won't craft the same thing for free or even at cost.

Given how unessential these skills are, I am also surprised that they are being lumped in with these skills. Any proper min-maxer should dump them and get something that would actually help you. This thread already has had someone mention how they craft these things, put them in shops, and have lost tons of gold. It doesn't really sound like they're in it for the money.

If those skills didn't help you, nobody would want the products of them. People want them because they help them feel good: folks like to wear things that distinguish them from others. It's no different from real life. Nobody needs $2000 suits irl, but people buy them and they are trade just as much as water or wheat is. Similarly, in the new forging, nobody needs terrifying, radiant longsword, but I guarantee you that some people will pay a lot more for them than they will for a simple, dented longsword, even though they do exactly the same thing as far as game mechanics are concerned. 

I can't believe I almost missed this post.

Anyways, I am not arguing that people won't want it (clearly some do want the skill and the goods produced). I was mostly responding to Xith's argument that people will make money as the goods produced by these skills are sold at prices that make sense and that, if this doesn't happen, it is somehow the fault of every individual with that skill for underselling themselves. I imagine things will continue on as they are now and the people who have the permit based skills will all be substantially in the red.

I don't think that the skills being a total wash from a profit perspective is a problem per se, I just find it odd that they're lumped in with other skills for the increased lesson costs. Having them all lumped together does open up room for discussion about the balance between trade skills (excluding the permit cost, which you've already defended), and I think this is just the first sign of that.

Bluef

Xith said:

Khaibit said:

Xith said:

Khaibit said:

Jules said:

Khaibit said:

@ tecton I can't understand why tailoring/jewellery/cooking are being lumped in the same set as potions, lotions, forging and enchantments. They are not the same thing. No one has ever died due to a lack of a snazzy scarf or pretty bracelet. They are purely an rp thing and have nothing to do with being 'self sufficient' I could walk around butt naked and it wouldn't have any effect on my bashing or pk. Why not just split them so that the crafter skills are not fucked up by wanting to buy the ability to make concoctions?

Khaibit, I think it's more to do with making your trade actually rare and valuable enough to other players for there to be some profit in that trade.  I'm finding myself wishing that they would maintain flat fees to learn trades, and simply put a hard cap on the number you can learn though.   

It's going to have quite the opposite effect. People are already planing to buy the concoction type skills in droves.
Craft skills were never really about making oodles of cash, they are pretty much picked by people who like designing things, rather than people who want to make money. 

I gotta be honest, I think they should have tried harder to make money if the money/cost is any concern now. If they didn't care about the money, they shouldn't mind the extra cost.

If you look at your credit/lesson investment in the tradeskills like a loan, then each successive skill you take will take longer to pay itself off.
At 6000/credit, a 115cr miniskill is about 690,000 gold invested. If you sell a sword and make 1000 profit (I hope you would for something like a sword), you'll make it back in 690 swords. If you make 3000 in profit per sword, you only have to sell 230 swords. Then divide that by the number of swords you sell per Achaean year (4), and you're paid off in 57 years. You make your money back faster if you can sell more weapons per year, but you're also competing with sellers who will try to undercut the prices, the same people who are doing it as a luxury and don't care about their payoff.

They are probably people who took it as their 3rd, 4th, or 5th skill out of boredom or whatever reason. They're paying a tax to achaea to make up for their probable screwing of the game economy. So long story short, the more you charge other players, the less you're paying Achaea.



tl;dr - don't undersell and the investments won't be hard on you

I'm sorry, what? How is tailoring or jewellery or cooking screwing the game economy exactly?
I am not talking about swords and shit, I am talking about a part of the game that we have already paid 200 credits plus lessons to play, a part of the game that effects no game mechanics at all, and is essentially a gold sink for people who want to make their character look pretty/sparkly/dark and broody, whatever.

The 200cr I think has to do with the people reviewing designs for you. That's why the license costs are remaining after all.

If that's the 200 cr, then why are we paying 1k for every submission of a pattern as well?

Xith

Gold sink. Plus it's a per thing charge. You have your 200cr entry as well as a fee per new item made. Otherwise it'd be like endless free patterns for a 200cr entry.

Can't be y = ax any more than it can be y = b. Gotta have y = ax + b or some end of it's going to be too heavy to manage.

Ahmet

Addama said:

Lisbethae said:

Addama said:

Then do all those things!  Literally nobody is stopping you.

I am beginning to think you are willfully not understanding his point. 

His point is so superficial - that he doesn't make enough money doing the thing he chooses to do - that I probably should've just said that ("Then do (other | all those) things!  Literally nobody is stopping you.") in the first place.

Especially after these changes, nobody, regardless of class, is forced to do any one thing for money.  You choose to do it, and if you don't like doing it, you go off and do another thing.

Lis, I'll direct you to Kresslack's forum signature.

Bluef

Xith said:

Gold sink. Plus it's a per thing charge. You have your 200cr entry as well as a fee per new item made. Otherwise it'd be like endless free patterns for a 200cr entry.

Can't be y = ax any more than it can be y = b. Gotta have y = ax + b or some end of it's going to be too heavy to manage.

I'm confused. Is tailoring a trade skill or a gold sink - because obviously you need to sink money into something to make money but the costs involved in tailoring, etc. are far above and beyond any other trade skill. I'd argue that every trade skill should have a correlating gold sink then because the gold sink part is part of what makes it hard to ever earn back what we put into it.

Also "too heavy to manage" in what way? The number of patterns that are submitted? The 1k per submission thing was just recently added by the way. It wasn't always that way, so if that's the reason (there are just too many darn patterns being submitted and admin time is limited) I could sort of understand; except I would argue that the service value has also decreased recently and frankly we're not getting what we're paying for (polite, careful proofreading). It's become somewhat of hassle to create, submit, maintain designs (don't even get me started on the gold sink that goes along with maintaining a pattern once you've purchased its design).

Likewise, we used to be able to add things to the public NDS. That hasn't worked in ages. Every bug report I've submitted has gone unanswered - I submitted an issue about it early in 2014 and was told "Sorry!" and to buy new sketches, pay the 1k for each pattern, resubmit all the designs that were lost and then re-pay for them again. Why would I do that? Why would anyone do that if it's broken? I also re-submitted another bug report about it in July of 2014 a few RL months later and it is still sitting there both unassigned and untested, even though I've tried this same thing myself just recently and it still isn't working.

Is this part of making people more self-sufficient too (less availability of public patterns)? Just curious. 

Lisbethae

Addama said:

His point is so superficial - ....

Oh, I understand now, you don't care what he thinks. Got it.

Tecton

Ok, the first two posts of the thread have been updated with some new information!

Kez

Xith said:

Gold sink. Plus it's a per thing charge. You have your 200cr entry as well as a fee per new item made. Otherwise it'd be like endless free patterns for a 200cr entry.

Can't be y = ax any more than it can be y = b. Gotta have y = ax + b or some end of it's going to be too heavy to manage.

It's not endless free patterns. First you buy the license, then you spend the lessons, then...

Buy a blank sketch and a pattern (about 500-1000 gold? Not going to check)
Submit your sketch (1000 gold)
Sketch is approved! Pick it up at the crafting guild (about 10k)
Craft your item (commodities, and in the case of jewellery, another about 10k)

Addama

Will there be a need for both concoctions and transmutation following this change?
To be honest, no! Some very good points were raised in regards to skill duplication, so we're going to combine concoctions and transmutation into a single tradeskill that will make the same concocted remedies from either plants or minerals. Curative herbs and minerals will still exist as distinct items, but the remedies made from them will be standardised. So a health elixir could be made from valerian, goldenseal, ginseng, and myrrh, or from mercury, copper, and gold.

Awesome.

Does this mean all of my vials are going to automatically change from vitality to health?

Rispok

@Tecton, will those of us who got Bardiche or Halberd proficiency be refunded?

Tecton

Addama said:

Will there be a need for both concoctions and transmutation following this change?
To be honest, no! Some very good points were raised in regards to skill duplication, so we're going to combine concoctions and transmutation into a single tradeskill that will make the same concocted remedies from either plants or minerals. Curative herbs and minerals will still exist as distinct items, but the remedies made from them will be standardised. So a health elixir could be made from valerian, goldenseal, ginseng, and myrrh, or from mercury, copper, and gold.

Awesome.

Does this mean all of my vials are going to automatically change from vitality to health?

Not sure on this just yet, we may, or we might just leave those to run out naturally, just to stop any "ohsh*twhereismyvitalityvial* moments.

Tecton

Rispok said:

@Tecton, will those of us who got Bardiche or Halberd proficiency be refunded?

Not automatically, no, since they'll still exist in artefact form (and will be back again in the future), they just won't be able to be forged between now and that point in the future.

Lisbethae

Wait. What if we want to see those kinds of moments.

Not that anyone would....I mean....

  

Tecton

Lisbethae said:

Wait. What if we want to see those kinds of moments.

Not that anyone would....I mean....

  

Wrong emote, you want  

Addama

Tecton said:

Addama said:

Will there be a need for both concoctions and transmutation following this change?
To be honest, no! Some very good points were raised in regards to skill duplication, so we're going to combine concoctions and transmutation into a single tradeskill that will make the same concocted remedies from either plants or minerals. Curative herbs and minerals will still exist as distinct items, but the remedies made from them will be standardised. So a health elixir could be made from valerian, goldenseal, ginseng, and myrrh, or from mercury, copper, and gold.

Awesome.

Does this mean all of my vials are going to automatically change from vitality to health?

Not sure on this just yet, we may, or we might just leave those to run out naturally, just to stop any "ohsh*twhereismyvitalityvial* moments.

So then I take it the serverside curing system will be updated on release to, for example, sip health when CURING TRANSMUTATIONS is set?

Dalran

@Tecton so is serverside curing still going to have transmutation, or concoctions toggle? Since it'll be using both or, will it just be a toggle for which plant/mineral you want to use I assume?

Tecton

Current plan is to add another configurable setting for a short time, to handle the transition.

Sena

Tecton said:

Rispok said:

@Tecton, will those of us who got Bardiche or Halberd proficiency be refunded?

Not automatically, no, since they'll still exist in artefact form (and will be back again in the future), they just won't be able to be forged between now and that point in the future.

Will the artefacts still be available to purchase, or do you just mean for the people who already have them?

Xith

Kez said:

Xith said:

Gold sink. Plus it's a per thing charge. You have your 200cr entry as well as a fee per new item made. Otherwise it'd be like endless free patterns for a 200cr entry.

Can't be y = ax any more than it can be y = b. Gotta have y = ax + b or some end of it's going to be too heavy to manage.

It's not endless free patterns. First you buy the license, then you spend the lessons, then...

Buy a blank sketch and a pattern (about 500-1000 gold? Not going to check)
Submit your sketch (1000 gold)
Sketch is approved! Pick it up at the crafting guild (about 10k)
Craft your item (commodities, and in the case of jewellery, another about 10k)

I must need to improve my word order or something. You literally just quoted the response to this, but that 1000 gold fee is what she was asking about, and that's the fee per item, as well as the newdesign cost.

What I was saying is it's either 200cr + 15000(x), or would have to be like 30000(x), or 500cr. That sort of thing. If you don't have the license cost, everybody gets in too easy. If you don't have the crafting cost, then designs get submitted too fast (remember these are read by admins).

Another analogy:
200cr represents the door charge at the club.
15k gold is the cost of a drink. Can't give away free drinks or your bartender will be too busy. Can't let people in for free or you get overcrowded. Inversely, if your door charge is too high, people don't want to come in, and if your drinks cost too much, nobody wants to buy them.

Ahmet

@Tecton Any chance you've got a more exact date and/or time estimate you could give us?

Conslo

Tecton said:

Addama said:

Will there be a need for both concoctions and transmutation following this change?
To be honest, no! Some very good points were raised in regards to skill duplication, so we're going to combine concoctions and transmutation into a single tradeskill that will make the same concocted remedies from either plants or minerals. Curative herbs and minerals will still exist as distinct items, but the remedies made from them will be standardised. So a health elixir could be made from valerian, goldenseal, ginseng, and myrrh, or from mercury, copper, and gold.

Awesome.

Does this mean all of my vials are going to automatically change from vitality to health?

Not sure on this just yet, we may, or we might just leave those to run out naturally, just to stop any "ohsh*twhereismyvitalityvial* moments.

I can see someone paying a hefty sum years down the line for the last sips of vitality/health. Everyone should start stockpiling now; it's blueberries all over again.

Tecton

Sena said:

Tecton said:

Rispok said:

@Tecton, will those of us who got Bardiche or Halberd proficiency be refunded?

Not automatically, no, since they'll still exist in artefact form (and will be back again in the future), they just won't be able to be forged between now and that point in the future.

Will the artefacts still be available to purchase, or do you just mean for the people who already have them?

Yeah, we'll probably leave them for sale for the moment, if someone deathly wants to buy one, they can!

Tecton

Ahmet said:

@Tecton Any chance you've got a more exact date and/or time estimate you could give us?

I was originally hoping this week, but with the tweaks and changes it might be next (especially with holiday commitments this week and such), but will definitely all be live before 2015.

Ahmet

Tecton said:

Ahmet said:

@Tecton Any chance you've got a more exact date and/or time estimate you could give us?

I was originally hoping this week, but with the tweaks and changes it might be next (especially with holiday commitments this week and such), but will definitely all be live before 2015.

That, sir, is quite the opposite of "more exact."  

Tecton

Ahmet said:

Tecton said:

Ahmet said:

@Tecton Any chance you've got a more exact date and/or time estimate you could give us?

I was originally hoping this week, but with the tweaks and changes it might be next (especially with holiday commitments this week and such), but will definitely all be live before 2015.

That, sir, is quite the opposite of "more exact."  

More precise than "when it's ready" or "soon", that's for sure!

Xith

Some people...

Anyway, @Tecton I did have a question that might fit nicely in the update. Where do the Toxicology ingredients come from? Gathering or also from minerals? Or are they self-contained within Toxicology?

Tecton

Xith said:

Some people...

Anyway, @Tecton I did have a question that might fit nicely in the update. Where do the Toxicology ingredients come from? Gathering or also from minerals? Or are they self-contained within Toxicology?

Synthesis, Harvesting, Inkmilling.

Micositu

If I throw enough money at it can I learn all the trade-skills?