Tradeskill split

Addama

Prythe said:

If the goal is to disallow self-sufficiency, and free reign within Classes to learn *any* trade skills, then that should be across the board, no? Irrespective of any City / Village allegiance.

What?

Siduri

Prythe said:

If the goal is to disallow self-sufficiency, and free reign within Classes to learn *any* trade skills, then that should be across the board, no? Irrespective of any City / Village allegiance.

Hum, no, as @Sarapis said, the goal is not to disallow self-sufficiency, but to -tax- it.

Prythe

Okay, so if the goal is to tax self-sufficiency, which is fine - that still begs the question: why can't a city/village have overlapping talents/skill sets within their walls?

Ahmet

Siduri said:

Prythe said:

If the goal is to disallow self-sufficiency, and free reign within Classes to learn *any* trade skills, then that should be across the board, no? Irrespective of any City / Village allegiance.

Hum, no, as @Sarapis said, the goal is not to disallow self-sufficiency, but to -tax- it.

Official petition to disallow self-sufficiency by giving each miniskill to one city and requiring that they all make nice. All petitioners sign below:

Ruth

I'm also mildly interested in @Addama's question too. With tradeskills separating from skills, that means people with 'aligned' tradeskills (see: concoctions/transmutation) who want to convert from this side to that side would cost them more, which would dissuade them from doing so even though it's just losing half a mini-skill cost.

Previously, it used to be just confined to (a smaller amount of) people who play faction-based classes, with a reasonable expectation that they'll be losing their class to pursue a different line of roleplay. Eg. Sentinel/Sylvan/Druid wanting to go to anywhere other than Eleusis, since other cities chose Alchemy. Priest/Paladin wanting to go anywhere other than Targossas or Cyrene. Apostate/Infernal wanting to go anywhere other than Mhaldor. However, with this tradeskill split, the amount of people it may potentially affect is more.

I don't think the issue necessarily needs to be addressed through tweaks in the tradeskill system, I suppose, but I feel like the way the tradeskills should be managed should be in a way it allows for an individual's dynamic, shifting roleplay without making them pay over decisions that may simply be due to personal preferences, like finding it more fun to harvest than to extract and synthesize.

Bluef

The simplest solution would be a redeemable token for these four specific mini skillsets that does not require anyone to spend anything beyond what one already has. That way if someone has a grouping of two miniskills in one of the skillsets, but loses them for whatever reason (city alignment shifts, they leave the city and go to another, etc.) they can redeem the equivalent of what they already had.

Silas

This change (and the upcoming multiclass) makes me want to pick up my Iron Elite subscription again so that when I eventually come back to save My city from these feckless wastrels I'll have an assload of shiny new toys to play with too.

Jinsun

I only read a few pages of this thread. So glad tarot didn't get trampled by IREs new cash cow. Sorry to everyone who has to pay credits to keep their skills.

Kenway

Addama said:

Kenway said:

That said, even with dual cutting the chance to miss one of your two delph jabs on a leg break is possibly the single most frustrating thing ive ever experienced. But that at least can be worked around with a paralysis stick.

This this this this this.

Knights shouldn't hit 100% of the time against everything - avoidance/dodging is the only way classes like Jester are able to survive their damage/prep - but to make the default to-hit so low that everything gets a significant dodge chance would throw Knights under the bus hard.  Disembowel sequences are already pretty easy to avoid, we needn't make a percentage of them simply fail on RNG as well.

You completely missed the point here. As is high dodge chances simply require a little extra finesse to ensure the disembowel (discounting well timed tumble). Make sure paralysis is stuck when you go for the delph leg break and youre golden. Its a hurdle yes, in a system that already has more than a few but its workable and with new speed formulas for dsl it will hopefully be more attainable without super weapons as well.

The issue is the long balance time. Sip balance by default is faster than HEW balance and you need to simultaneously keep health low and fractures high to succeed with two handed. Most defensive measures againt two handed block/cure ONE of these two things. You either cure fractures and lose health or keep fractures and gain health. The only ways to block both stop you from doing anything as well. Dodge however negates both while allowing for the defenders offense to continue. THAT is the issue. Its not so much an issue when you have one of the fastest balances in the game (yes its annoying as balls tho)

Wessux

Kenway said:

Addama said:

Kenway said:

That said, even with dual cutting the chance to miss one of your two delph jabs on a leg break is possibly the single most frustrating thing ive ever experienced. But that at least can be worked around with a paralysis stick.

This this this this this.

Knights shouldn't hit 100% of the time against everything - avoidance/dodging is the only way classes like Jester are able to survive their damage/prep - but to make the default to-hit so low that everything gets a significant dodge chance would throw Knights under the bus hard.  Disembowel sequences are already pretty easy to avoid, we needn't make a percentage of them simply fail on RNG as well.

You completely missed the point here. As is high dodge chances simply require a little extra finesse to ensure the disembowel (discounting well timed tumble). Make sure paralysis is stuck when you go for the delph leg break and youre golden. Its a hurdle yes, in a system that already has more than a few but its workable and with new speed formulas for dsl it will hopefully be more attainable without super weapons as well.

The issue is the long balance time. Sip balance by default is faster than HEW balance and you need to simultaneously keep health low and fractures high to succeed with two handed. Most defensive measures againt two handed block/cure ONE of these two things. You either cure fractures and lose health or keep fractures and gain health. The only ways to block both stop you from doing anything as well. Dodge however negates both while allowing for the defenders offense to continue. THAT is the issue. Its not so much an issue when you have one of the fastest balances in the game (yes its annoying as balls tho)

I'm pretty sure all the weapon stats have changed or the formula to calculate speed has. Just relax and wait till we see what drops. We are still missing a lot of big pieces of information. 

Trevize

I come back to this? Awesome Logosmas present!

I'm one of those with 'too many' tradeskills, and I fully support this change, even if it means loss of abilities on my part (alchemy, inkmilling, gathering, jeweller, tailor).

Excited for the new forging, most of all. I'm expecting to pick that up.

Krypton

Addama said:

I've thought about the concoctions/transmutations problem, and I've come up with an equitable solution:

Forestals can't do transmutations, Alchemists can't do concoctions, but any other class can do both/either.

Cyrene and Targossas allows both concoctions and transmutations.  Eleusis is concoctions-only, Mhaldor, Ashtan and Hashan are transmutations-only. 

Having the wrong skillset for the wrong city (e.g., trying to join Mhaldor with concoctions) does not bar you from joining that city, but being a citizen of that city prevents you from using the skillset.

I think that's it.

Yeah..... no. Making tradeskills unlearnable is a much better solution.

There are already so many cross-restrictions between classes(/skills), cities, Houses, Orders, clans. Throwing a couple factional-type tradeskills into that mix does not strike me as so big a deal.

Kenway

@Wessux they said earlier that the formulas were adjusted. Two handed is by design slow. Im not concerned about it im just trying to explain why increasing dex dodge chance would be bad for these changes.

Nakari

if we're already splitting off alchemy/concoctions from their associated classes-and thus shifting the rp associated from those skills away from the classes they've been associated with-is there really a substantial disadvantage to removing limitations on who can use transmutations and concoctions?

I understand that there is a substantial rp attachment to these skills, but that feels like it's already being severed. I can be any rogue class that I want to and use either skill to my understanding. What do people see as the additional disadvantage to not having city limitation on them?

Trevize

Nakari said:

if we're already splitting off alchemy/concoctions from their associated classes-and thus shifting the rp associated from those skills away from the classes they've been associated with-is there really a substantial disadvantage to removing limitations on who can use transmutations and concoctions?

I understand that there is a substantial rp attachment to these skills, but that feels like it's already being severed. I can be any rogue class that I want to and use either skill to my understanding. What do people see as the additional disadvantage to not having city limitation on them?

I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with the proposal - I have no personal feelings either way, honestly.

However, I would like to note that severing class connections doesn't automatically mean severing factional connections.

Tecton

Grandue said:

Sena said:

Will it be possible to forget a tradeskill in order to choose another? I'm mostly thinking of people who choose concoctions/transmutation and then later want to go alchemist/forestal, but have a conflicting tradeskill. Obviously taking a certain tradeskill shouldn't permanently lock your character out of a class (or three), so how will it work?

I'm also curious about this.

Surely there must be some way of switching between concoctions and transmutation at least. This raises even more questions though.

If you can trade in these skills, will it be a full refund of the lessons spent or only a partial trade-in?

If it is only a partial trade in, then will ALL trade skills be able to be traded in for a partial refund?

You'll be able to FORGET a tradeskill, yes.

You'll get a 50% refund of invested lessons, things with permits won't refund the permit, but if you were ever to re-learn the permit-using tradeskill, you wouldn't have to re-purchase it.

Tecton

Trey said:

Rispok said:

Will it be possible to 'power level' forging by just doing clubs and bucklers? What mechanics can we expect to deter this kind of abuse?

I forget who, but someone official stated before that clubs are getting buhleeted.

Yes, clubs are being removed.

Krypton

The Cauda Pavonis has near-godlike control over the use of Alchemy by Achaeans. If they want to set aside their distaste for herbalists over what happened in the past, fine. But if that doesn't happen first, it is ludicrous RP for the intermixing of herb and mineral cures they don't want in the cities (all of whom owe the Cauda Pavonis a tremendous debt for the events surrounding Nurazar) to happen without consequence.

Tecton

Ruth said:

I'm also mildly interested in @Addama's question too. With tradeskills separating from skills, that means people with 'aligned' tradeskills (see: concoctions/transmutation) who want to convert from this side to that side would cost them more, which would dissuade them from doing so even though it's just losing half a mini-skill cost.

Previously, it used to be just confined to (a smaller amount of) people who play faction-based classes, with a reasonable expectation that they'll be losing their class to pursue a different line of roleplay. Eg. Sentinel/Sylvan/Druid wanting to go to anywhere other than Eleusis, since other cities chose Alchemy. Priest/Paladin wanting to go anywhere other than Targossas or Cyrene. Apostate/Infernal wanting to go anywhere other than Mhaldor. However, with this tradeskill split, the amount of people it may potentially affect is more.

I don't think the issue necessarily needs to be addressed through tweaks in the tradeskill system, I suppose, but I feel like the way the tradeskills should be managed should be in a way it allows for an individual's dynamic, shifting roleplay without making them pay over decisions that may simply be due to personal preferences, like finding it more fun to harvest than to extract and synthesize.

Yeah, I do think we'll need a better system to handle that, I think we'll work on that some more this week and come up with a better solution, perhaps we just scrap the hardcoded restrictions and just have them enforced in the RP arena.

ETA: I'll just disclaim that this is a possibility, not the final decision!

Trevize

Apologies if this has been answered, but how will the system handle forgetting and relearning a tradeskill? E.g. if I learn 1 and 2 at the normal rate, and pick up 3 at the extended cost, will it 'remember' which slot they're in? e.g. if I'm only just starting to learn 3, then forget 2, will I still have to pay the increased cost for 3? And if not, then if I forget 2 after learning 3 fully, then forget 3, will I get all the lessons I invested in 3 at the increased cost back?

Tecton

Trevize said:

Apologies if this has been answered, but how will the system handle forgetting and relearning a tradeskill? E.g. if I learn 1 and 2 at the normal rate, and pick up 3 at the extended cost, will it 'remember' which slot they're in? e.g. if I'm only just starting to learn 3, then forget 2, will I still have to pay the increased cost for 3? And if not, then if I forget 2 after learning 3 fully, then forget 3, will I get all the lessons I invested in 3 at the increased cost back?

Yes, it knows how many lessons you put in, and will refund the appropriate amount. Additionally, the system will always try to fill a "cheaper" slot, if you have one available.

Kez

Would we be able to forget general and class skills (without forgetting the whole class) to reinvest half those lessons elsewhere, or just trades?

Tecton

Kez said:

Would we be able to forget general and class skills (without forgetting the whole class) to reinvest half those lessons elsewhere, or just trades?

Just tradeskills at this point in time (unless you're a newbie)!

Sarathai

To re-ask a question I had from a few pages back, what happens in the interim after the tradeskills are released but their class-specific versions (Druid/Sylvan/Sentinel Concoctions, Magi Enchantment, etc.) haven't been swapped out for the new third skill? Will there be doubling-up going on for, say, tri-trans Druids who could also trans out the new Concoctions/Harvesting tradeskill, or Magi with Enchantment and the Augmentation/Conjuration tradeskill?

Tecton

Sarathai said:

To re-ask a question I had from a few pages back, what happens in the interim after the tradeskills are released but their class-specific versions (Druid/Sylvan/Sentinel Concoctions, Magi Enchantment, etc.) haven't been swapped out for the new third skill? Will there be doubling-up going on for, say, tri-trans Druids who could also trans out the new Concoctions/Harvesting tradeskill, or Magi with Enchantment and the Augmentation/Conjuration tradeskill?

If you decide to learn concoctions and harvesting straight away, yeah, you'll have duplicates. All of your class-specific bonuses will still apply as long as your class still has the tradeskill.

Addama

Sarathai said:

To re-ask a question I had from a few pages back, what happens in the interim after the tradeskills are released but their class-specific versions (Druid/Sylvan/Sentinel Concoctions, Magi Enchantment, etc.) haven't been swapped out for the new third skill? Will there be doubling-up going on for, say, tri-trans Druids who could also trans out the new Concoctions/Harvesting tradeskill, or Magi with Enchantment and the Augmentation/Conjuration tradeskill?

I suspect that, since the skillsets will exist, you could hypothetically train the Concoction skills as a Concoctionist, but this will accomplish nothing.

Sarathai

Tecton said:

Sarathai said:

To re-ask a question I had from a few pages back, what happens in the interim after the tradeskills are released but their class-specific versions (Druid/Sylvan/Sentinel Concoctions, Magi Enchantment, etc.) haven't been swapped out for the new third skill? Will there be doubling-up going on for, say, tri-trans Druids who could also trans out the new Concoctions/Harvesting tradeskill, or Magi with Enchantment and the Augmentation/Conjuration tradeskill?

If you decide to learn concoctions and harvesting straight away, yeah, you'll have duplicates. All of your class-specific bonuses will still apply as long as your class still has the tradeskill.

Will the Naturalism skill from Concoctions (the one that allows you to see who exterminated a room) be moved into Groves, or will it be in the tradeskill? And what about Planting?

Or Harvest in Groves? That gets moved to the Harvesting tradeskill, I assume?

Tecton

Sarathai said:

Tecton said:

Sarathai said:

To re-ask a question I had from a few pages back, what happens in the interim after the tradeskills are released but their class-specific versions (Druid/Sylvan/Sentinel Concoctions, Magi Enchantment, etc.) haven't been swapped out for the new third skill? Will there be doubling-up going on for, say, tri-trans Druids who could also trans out the new Concoctions/Harvesting tradeskill, or Magi with Enchantment and the Augmentation/Conjuration tradeskill?

If you decide to learn concoctions and harvesting straight away, yeah, you'll have duplicates. All of your class-specific bonuses will still apply as long as your class still has the tradeskill.

Will the Naturalism skill from Concoctions (the one that allows you to see who exterminated a room) be moved into Groves, or will it be in the tradeskill? And what about Planting?

Or Harvest in Groves? That gets moved to the Harvesting tradeskill, I assume?

1. Naturalism will move into the forestal skillset.
2. Planting will be in the harvesting miniskill.
3. Harvesting will go into harvesting, naturally.

Darklyre

I take it that it's too late to request the one-time complimentary fullplate customization?

Roselie

When Multiclassing was proposed, I was excited. I have been in other realms where multiclassing was an option - and realms where it was simply necessary to complete the program. I always enjoyed it. I thought it would be fun to have a skillset that my character doesn't have as a Magi.

I never dreamed that Multiclassing would involve loss of my class skill in order to share it with others, and loss of the tradeskills that I have come to absolutely love.

If I were going to pick a Magi skill to lose, it would be Crystallism, since most of that is for combat, and not really all that useful to me. I cringe at the thought of gaining another class skill for combat, honestly.  I would rather have the option to keep Enchanting.

I did the math on the tradeskills - I currently have inkmilling, gathering, tailoring, cooking, and Jewellery. In order to have them again, its going to cost me. I really hope that Tecton and Sarapis will find a way to make it so that those of us who invested a lot of credits and lessons in our skills will not be penalized excessively to get what we currently enjoy back again. I liked the grandfathering idea of letting people that have them, keep them, if that's possible.

I also hope that if I should decide to forgo a tradeskill that I paid the 200 creds for, that I can get those back as bound credits.

Thanks to Tecton and Sarapis for their patience.