Tradeskill split

Arador

Indecently, the new system means you would never have to do something like that ever again. If I planned on waking up I would always be sure to buy a couple of hundred credits since I would need it for weapons, since I did not have a stockroom to use. Then my first few weeks back would be spent trying to find awesome weapons. No need for that anymore. It does suck of you've done it though. 

Antonius

Addama said:

Paine said:

Sorry if this was asked/answered already, but I don't have time to read 26 pages.
Will skills like enchanting and milking venoms require special rooms? Forging requires a forge, which is public in every city, plus multiple villages. Alchemists need their special thing, which is already in each city. All the milking rooms are in specific houses though, with limited access. Will there be more public milking rooms? Will there be city-based enchanting rooms? The one in Tasur'ke charges a lot of gold for the privilege!
This is really exciting. Too bad I'm not around much anymore. :-)

It sounds like Milking rooms won't be necessary, as Venoms will be produced via a combination of commodities rather than directly from a Serpent.  Serpents will still be able to produce Venoms to envenom attacks/bites, and though Toxicology will be introduced initially along with the other Trade skills, Serpents will retain the ability to Milk for venoms until a later time when Venoms are removed and Serpents get their replacement skillset.

We're just hoping that, when this happens, Houses will be reimbursed for their now-defunct Milking rooms.

Serpent isn't getting a replacement skill (not skillset!), they're just losing the ability to milk venoms - Venoms was both a combat skill and their tradeskill simultaneously. They'll probably get some tweaks to go along with the removal of milking, but it's not going to be on the level of the other classes.

Antonius

Tessa said:

So, anyone mind explaining HOW is any of this a good thing? The only fair aspect that I'm seeing is that I'll get a full refund on my HoF. Maybe I'm reading this all wrong.

On an individual level, it no doubt sucks. On a game wide level, however, there's a few pretty large reasons as to why it's a good thing.

1. Forging was an awful mechanic. In addition to the cost required to learn it, the random stats meant that there was a huge time and cost investment required to actually get a usable end result. It also made balancing weapon using classes a bit of a nightmare, because you were either implementing a barrier for entry that wasn't feasible for most people to meet or making the ridiculous outlier weapons absurdly powerful.
2. Knights get a lot more options about playstyle and weapon choices, rather than being forced into using rapiers if you actually wanted to compete.
3. Other classes getting new skills will also likely get new options for combat, and likely for PvE down the line.
4. More people get access to tradeskills that they actually want without being forced to pick a class they don't like.
5. Tradeskills (at least the first two you take) are cheaper to learn.
6. Forging in particular has a lot more potential to actually be profitable.

Kez

Re: sunken costs - I recall that one person, I can't remember who, won an auction with a lot of credits to get a forged item made permanent.

Blujixapug

Antonius said:

Serpent isn't getting a replacement skill (not skillset!), they're just losing the ability to milk venoms - Venoms was both a combat skill and their tradeskill simultaneously. They'll probably get some tweaks to go along with the removal of milking, but it's not going to be on the level of the other classes.

I understand that Venom is central to serpents' PK identity with bite/dstab, and removing it would require a major redesign for the class, which I doubt anyone wants. But I hope they're getting some cool new stuff to compensate for being forced to share yet another one of their toys (along with bows, illusions, wormholes, evade, hide, block, dash etc).

Tessa

Antonius said:

Tessa said:

So, anyone mind explaining HOW is any of this a good thing? The only fair aspect that I'm seeing is that I'll get a full refund on my HoF. Maybe I'm reading this all wrong.

On an individual level, it no doubt sucks. On a game wide level, however, there's a few pretty large reasons as to why it's a good thing.

1. Forging was an awful mechanic. In addition to the cost required to learn it, the random stats meant that there was a huge time and cost investment required to actually get a usable end result. It also made balancing weapon using classes a bit of a nightmare, because you were either implementing a barrier for entry that wasn't feasible for most people to meet or making the ridiculous outlier weapons absurdly powerful.
2. Knights get a lot more options about playstyle and weapon choices, rather than being forced into using rapiers if you actually wanted to compete.
3. Other classes getting new skills will also likely get new options for combat, and likely for PvE down the line.
4. More people get access to tradeskills that they actually want without being forced to pick a class they don't like.
5. Tradeskills (at least the first two you take) are cheaper to learn.
6. Forging in particular has a lot more potential to actually be profitable.

Thanks to those who responded. I'm just using Antonius' post due to how well he put it all.

I wholly agree with #1 and #2. I never liked that painful low end cap and limit it created for novice and advanced gear alike - I couldn't imagine starting this game as a Knight with that in mind, or the fact that you did have to sink tons of time and labor into it to get something good. Lets not forget the fact that Knights were forced to trans Forging in order to get that fullplate, before throwing 100+comms into a single attempt. Forging profit? Hardly. Unless you charged retarded prices, it just mitigated losses. Only reason that pleased me was because it was an achievement to get a 'business' going, and brought good equipment to others. Forging was just short of broken in my opinion. To that end I'm glad that nightmare is over.

#3 through #5 make sense, though I really hope the latter half of #3 is true. The entire reason I took Forging was to get better equipment for PvE (sorry Achaea, but I'm not a fan of the combat mechanics). Otherwise I wouldn't have cared a less, and don't care if it's a trade skill or not. Where this burns is: while my rapiers were temporary, I was willing to and worked out how to keep them going, and I had, for all intents and purposes, artefact armor which I never had to worry about disappearing.

In order to play as I was, I'd be forced to drop idiotic amounts of credits (2k+?) into artefact equipment, or at the least whatever overpriced amount for just the artefact fullplate while settling for standard weapons. That's where I'm irked about this change. I put in the time and effort, and on the Knight end, I (and others I'm sure) are simply getting a 'nope' out of this. I'll get squat for hundreds of creds blown on what's now air. I know the push towards credits was probably part of the reasoning, but not everyone's made of money to those degrees, or willing to be burned by it after already investing. Helluva shock to come back to.

Antonius

Won't be their toy after the split!

Not sure they need anything combat related, and if I recall Subterfuge is pretty bloated as it is, so not sure what you could give them in exchange. Will have to wait and see what they have in store.

Makarios

I don't imagine you'll get many more responses today, but just before I join the rest of the garden with doing that sociable nonsense:

We're still talking about serpents. The issue of subterfuge being so huge is a pretty major issue; its pretty hard to justify another full skill given that you could split subterfuge in two and it'd probably still be more abilities (and useful abilities, to compound that) than most classes. You guys will have to wait on T for anything more specific than that, if there is anything more at the moment.

Re: weapons and such, you'll likely find you're mor affective with a massively reduced credit investment, if minmaxing is your preferred thing (both for pvp and pve - no need to worry there). Worst case, you can pay someone to forge you a fullplate (as you don't need the skill to wear it anymore or be the forger), and if you absolutely want superior to standard weapons (which across the board, are very solid stat wise) you can pick up one or two level 1 weapons. Put in perspective, a level 1 scimitar (the rapier replacement) is better overall than probably about 80-90% of current forged rapiers, and for (on average) a far lesser credit investment.

If you went to level 2, that narrows it down to probably about 98% of rapiers forged in the last year or so. Level 3, there's probably about 2 or 3 rapiers currently in the game that it doesn't beat out in speed (and let me tell you, rapiers with that kind of speed stick around for a -long- time).

Hopefully that helps illustrate somewhat that you're not expected to shell out crazy amounts of credits to stay at current standards. If anything (even in the case of people with decent forged rapiers like @Tessa), you'll probably find you're significantly more potent with standard forged weapons or level 1 at most. Artefacts (like for most classes offenses) are just there for those people who want the absolute maximum squeezed out of their skills.

Korben

I just got here and I may have missed it in the backlog, but... If I lose two tradeskills, do I get back lessons for two miniskills, or for 1 miniskill + another + 50% ? In other words, do I get enough lessons to learn back to wherever I was ?

Shirszae

From what I understand you are getting the exact same number of lessons you put in, which may or may not be enough to get you to whenever you were originally, depending on how many tradeskills you had. if you only had two then you ought be alright.

Antonius

Right. You'll get back 693 lessons (I think that's how much it is to Trans a miniskill) per miniskill you lose - Gathering, Inkmilling, Tailoring, Cooking and Jewellery.

If you have a class based tradeskill you'll either have the same number of lessons in the skill that replaces it. Or you can have the equivalent skillrank in the tradeskill(s?) that replace it.

Actually raises a question. Some class tradeskills (e.g. Forging) are being split into two skills. If a Knight doesn't want Weaponmastery can they get Trans in both or do they have to pick one?

Titonus

What happens to our fullplate if we've previously invested credits to have  it made resetting?

Daklore

Titonus said:

What happens to our fullplate if we've previously invested credits to have  it made resetting?

I do believe they already said nothing would happen to it, outside of its stats being normalized. It will remain customized and resetting, and no-decay.

Antonius said:

Actually raises a question. Some class tradeskills (e.g. Forging) are being split into two skills. If a Knight doesn't want Weaponmastery can they get Trans in both or do they have to pick one?

Afaik, they can get both trans'd, since they'll both be miniskills, so learning both of them back will be almost a skill... well, 2/3rds of a skill. I would imagine you'd get the remaining unused lessons back, or something... not actually sure on that one But, you can ask them to turn your weaponmastery back into Forging straight up, from what I've read in the thread.

Sable

Daklore said:

Titonus said:

What happens to our fullplate if we've previously invested credits to have  it made resetting?

I do believe they already said nothing would happen to it, outside of its stats being normalized. It will remain customized and resetting, and no-decay.

Antonius said:

Actually raises a question. Some class tradeskills (e.g. Forging) are being split into two skills. If a Knight doesn't want Weaponmastery can they get Trans in both or do they have to pick one?

Afaik, they can get both trans'd, since they'll both be miniskills, so learning both of them back will be almost a skill... well, 2/3rds of a skill. I would imagine you'd get the remaining unused lessons back, or something... not actually sure on that one But, you can ask them to turn your weaponmastery back into Forging straight up, from what I've read in the thread.

You'd get both of the tradeskills transed, but not the remaining lessons that would be missing, so they said as it's a direct trade between the one new mainskill and the old tradeskill now split. Another way to think about it is that if they just refunded your lessons as a whole for that class skill, you could then learn it back for less and have some lessons to pour into the new classskill, essentially coming out with more than you had before (even if it's the same number of lessons).


On a different note, as a combatant more than a trader, I'm quite excited for the Alchemist change being on this first batch, but I do have to add in a quick note on the Concoctions/Transmutation change. I'm actually a bit upset that they're being combined (at least for the liquid cures). One thing I loved about Alchemists when they were introduced was the history that was given by Cauda Pavonis and that rivalry between the two. While I understand there's no real need for two different sets that do the exact same thing, it's still a bit sad to see that tossed aside just because. 

From a technical standpoint, I can see making them work the same way, what with SIP HEALTH or somewhat, but why not change it so that either syntax will work with either cure, versus combining the two into one cure? You can then keep the simplification of curing aliases (though admittedly leaving the problem of who gets to learn which) as well as the roleplay of having two separate cure sets. I'm sure there's a middle ground to be found on how to go about the restrictions on the new Concoctions/Transmutation tradeskills that'll make most people happy. Seems a little waste, is all. But it's probably just me feeling this after all, as I've not seen one person seem anything but ecstatic over it. 

Antonius

Titonus said:

What happens to our fullplate if we've previously invested credits to have  it made resetting?

If you've had it customised it will remain non-decay, and I think made resetting if it's not already.

I have a resetting but not customised set, with garbage stats, so expecting that to stay as is.

Titonus

Antonius said:

Titonus said:

What happens to our fullplate if we've previously invested credits to have  it made resetting?

If you've had it customised it will remain non-decay, and I think made resetting if it's not already.

I have a resetting but not customised set, with garbage stats, so expecting that to stay as is.

So, if we haven't used our free customization yet, are we still free to do so?

Antonius

No idea what will happen with the free customisations after the switch. I assume since it will no longer be a class perk that it will be going away, so maybe worth trying to get it through in the next day or two.

Jarrod

Makarios said:

We're still talking about serpents. The issue of subterfuge being so huge is a pretty major issue; its pretty hard to justify another full skill given that you could split subterfuge in two and it'd probably still be more abilities (and useful abilities, to compound that) than most classes. You guys will have to wait on T for anything more specific than that, if there is anything more at the moment.

This was my thought re: Milking removal. Serpents, even while sharing a bevy of abilities with other classes and with artefacts, are still easily the most versatile class in Achaea even with full artefacts considered. Looking at all the Serpent abilities besides Phase is a huge variety of options, and Phase, when properly used, adds so much to the class that it's no longer a competition regarding things the class can do by itself. Most of the ideas I would have for Serpent wouldn't even be combat related, as Serpent is still very powerful in regards to fighting, both duels and raiding.

Jarrod

Random thought for Serpent that I just had. Something like 'Improved Aiming' deep in Subterfuge.

Change aiming from what it is (start aiming > aim success > shot with increased accuracy) to a duration based continual improvement to accuracy. Start aiming > wait however long you want/feel is necessary > fire with increased accuracy per second spent aiming. Since aiming is already very quick (close to 1 second last I can remember) but still suffers from horrible accuracy at times (any person with Projectiles or behind a wall combined with general very poor accuracy), this would allow you to hurt your own rate of fire to increase your accuracy.

Pros: Mitigates bad RNG from both sides of the fence. Every consistent raider has been hit by multiple arrows in a row while behind a wall and had to go on the defensive (or just died) due to bad luck with avoidance. Every sniper has tried to shoot someone with aiming five times in a row and missed every time and wanted to head-desk. If the shooters are taking the time to aim longer, their enemies have a higher time to react to them (move out of LoS, longer delay between hits), and they have a more reliable source of damage to contribute.

Cons: Potentially too high coordinated burst if arranged properly. If you can guarantee a group hits a target from a distance after X seconds, then you'll obviously have a strong burst on that target (combined with, for example, a meteor arrow or two). This is mitigated by good raid practice, but it's still something to consider. Good raid practice in this example being: stay shielded during lulls, scout for snipers during the 10s warning meteors give, etc.

Trey

Antonius said:

No idea what will happen with the free customisations after the switch. I assume since it will no longer be a class perk that it will be going away, so maybe worth trying to get it through in the next day or two.

That's what I'm doing at any rate. @Sartan's being a bawse and checking to see if it's still a thing for me.

Tibitha

Titonus said:

Antonius said:

Titonus said:

What happens to our fullplate if we've previously invested credits to have  it made resetting?

If you've had it customised it will remain non-decay, and I think made resetting if it's not already.

I have a resetting but not customised set, with garbage stats, so expecting that to stay as is.

So, if we haven't used our free customization yet, are we still free to do so?

I've enquired and was told we've missed the cut off. No more customisations

Trey

Well that's a shame.

Tharvis

yeah, I have a short email with Tecton about it. My gift customization is still possible because I requested it -before- the post, so all customization requests after the post at the beginning of this thread will probably be shot down

Xith

Sable said:

Daklore said:

Titonus said:

What happens to our fullplate if we've previously invested credits to have  it made resetting?

I do believe they already said nothing would happen to it, outside of its stats being normalized. It will remain customized and resetting, and no-decay.

Antonius said:

Actually raises a question. Some class tradeskills (e.g. Forging) are being split into two skills. If a Knight doesn't want Weaponmastery can they get Trans in both or do they have to pick one?

Afaik, they can get both trans'd, since they'll both be miniskills, so learning both of them back will be almost a skill... well, 2/3rds of a skill. I would imagine you'd get the remaining unused lessons back, or something... not actually sure on that one But, you can ask them to turn your weaponmastery back into Forging straight up, from what I've read in the thread.

You'd get both of the tradeskills transed, but not the remaining lessons that would be missing, so they said as it's a direct trade between the one new mainskill and the old tradeskill now split. Another way to think about it is that if they just refunded your lessons as a whole for that class skill, you could then learn it back for less and have some lessons to pour into the new classskill, essentially coming out with more than you had before (even if it's the same number of lessons).


On a different note, as a combatant more than a trader, I'm quite excited for the Alchemist change being on this first batch, but I do have to add in a quick note on the Concoctions/Transmutation change. I'm actually a bit upset that they're being combined (at least for the liquid cures). One thing I loved about Alchemists when they were introduced was the history that was given by Cauda Pavonis and that rivalry between the two. While I understand there's no real need for two different sets that do the exact same thing, it's still a bit sad to see that tossed aside just because. 

From a technical standpoint, I can see making them work the same way, what with SIP HEALTH or somewhat, but why not change it so that either syntax will work with either cure, versus combining the two into one cure? You can then keep the simplification of curing aliases (though admittedly leaving the problem of who gets to learn which) as well as the roleplay of having two separate cure sets. I'm sure there's a middle ground to be found on how to go about the restrictions on the new Concoctions/Transmutation tradeskills that'll make most people happy. Seems a little waste, is all. But it's probably just me feeling this after all, as I've not seen one person seem anything but ecstatic over it. 

Yeah I was startled at first but it makes sense. Sort of like using birch oil vs aspirin irl. Same active ingredient in the end, different ways of getting it and different people will choose which they prefer. 
Now instead of two brand names, 'health elixir' will be a generic term that refers to any brew that heals you, regardless of how it was made. 

Now you won't be able to create from minerals if you're eleusian and visa versa. 

Like tree paper vs rice or papyrus paper. All but indistinguishable in terms of function, and both are paper. 

Trey

Tharvis said:

yeah, I have a short email with Tecton about it. My gift customization is still possible because I requested it -before- the post, so all customization requests after the post at the beginning of this thread will probably be shot down

I wish I hadn't spent so much time trying to get a monster suit over the last decade now. Hindsight,  but I guess 50cr isn't terrible as a burden. Hopefully the class loyal ones are still on offer.

Sable

Xith said:

Sable said:

You'd get both of the tradeskills transed, but not the remaining lessons that would be missing, so they said as it's a direct trade between the one new mainskill and the old tradeskill now split. Another way to think about it is that if they just refunded your lessons as a whole for that class skill, you could then learn it back for less and have some lessons to pour into the new classskill, essentially coming out with more than you had before (even if it's the same number of lessons).


On a different note, as a combatant more than a trader, I'm quite excited for the Alchemist change being on this first batch, but I do have to add in a quick note on the Concoctions/Transmutation change. I'm actually a bit upset that they're being combined (at least for the liquid cures). One thing I loved about Alchemists when they were introduced was the history that was given by Cauda Pavonis and that rivalry between the two. While I understand there's no real need for two different sets that do the exact same thing, it's still a bit sad to see that tossed aside just because. 

From a technical standpoint, I can see making them work the same way, what with SIP HEALTH or somewhat, but why not change it so that either syntax will work with either cure, versus combining the two into one cure? You can then keep the simplification of curing aliases (though admittedly leaving the problem of who gets to learn which) as well as the roleplay of having two separate cure sets. I'm sure there's a middle ground to be found on how to go about the restrictions on the new Concoctions/Transmutation tradeskills that'll make most people happy. Seems a little waste, is all. But it's probably just me feeling this after all, as I've not seen one person seem anything but ecstatic over it. 

Yeah I was startled at first but it makes sense. Sort of like using birch oil vs aspirin irl. Same active ingredient in the end, different ways of getting it and different people will choose which they prefer. 
Now instead of two brand names, 'health elixir' will be a generic term that refers to any brew that heals you, regardless of how it was made. 

Now you won't be able to create from minerals if you're eleusian and visa versa. 

Like tree paper vs rice or papyrus paper. All but indistinguishable in terms of function, and both are paper. 

Pretty much. It makes sense logically, though I'll still admit a bit of an attachment to my vitality and mentality tonics. Ah, well. The masses have spoken and they don't want two different materials for their paper cures.

Tibitha

Trey said:

Tharvis said:

yeah, I have a short email with Tecton about it. My gift customization is still possible because I requested it -before- the post, so all customization requests after the post at the beginning of this thread will probably be shot down

I wish I hadn't spent so much time trying to get a monster suit over the last decade now. Hindsight,  but I guess 50cr isn't terrible as a burden. Hopefully the class loyal ones are still on offer.

From what I've people have said earlier in this thread, paying 50cr to make a set non-decay is also out. So either we customise a decaying set for 50cr or wait for artefact armour.

Sable

Tibitha said:

Trey said:

Tharvis said:

yeah, I have a short email with Tecton about it. My gift customization is still possible because I requested it -before- the post, so all customization requests after the post at the beginning of this thread will probably be shot down

I wish I hadn't spent so much time trying to get a monster suit over the last decade now. Hindsight,  but I guess 50cr isn't terrible as a burden. Hopefully the class loyal ones are still on offer.

From what I've people have said earlier in this thread, paying 50cr to make a set non-decay is also out. So either we customise a decaying set for 50cr or wait for artefact armour.

That's essentially everything, yup yup.

Grandue

Tibitha said:

From what I've people have said earlier in this thread, paying 50cr to make a set non-decay is also out. So either we customise a decaying set for 50cr or wait for artefact armour.

Which is interesting. 

Why wouldn't armor and weapons be able to be made non-decay now that they all have exactly the same stats. If clothes, bracelets, shoes, toys, packs, necklaces, quarterstaves, pipes, vials, bowls, and pretty much everything else can be made non-decay, why can't weapons and armor. Obviously it made sense back when they had such varying stats and you could essentially make an uber-rapier better than a lvl3 arty if you could non-decay it, but now that everything has the same stats, why not? 

I'm sure there is probably a reason I'm not thinking of, just curious.

Addama

Grandue said:

Tibitha said:

From what I've people have said earlier in this thread, paying 50cr to make a set non-decay is also out. So either we customise a decaying set for 50cr or wait for artefact armour.

Which is interesting. 

Why wouldn't armor and weapons be able to be made non-decay now that they all have exactly the same stats. If clothes, bracelets, shoes, toys, packs, necklaces, quarterstaves, pipes, vials, bowls, and pretty much everything else can be made non-decay, why can't weapons and armor. Obviously it made sense back when they had such varying stats and you could essentially make an uber-rapier better than a lvl3 arty if you could non-decay it, but now that everything has the same stats, why not? 

I'm sure there is probably a reason I'm not thinking of, just curious.

The reasoning is that, by having a set of non-decay weapons, you're basically opting out from the in-game economy.  One of the perks of the new Forging system is that it reduces decay times and forces people to buy more weapons more often, which offers an avenue for forgers to make money, and not just the super-active eight-hours-a-day forgers.

Being able to pay 50 credits to opt out of ever having to buy weapons/armour 1) doesn't benefit the in-game economy and 2) isn't worth it anyway because you're not going to be buying weapons/armour for 50-300 credits based on their ridiculous RNG.

It's a change I welcome - the super-wealthy don't get to opt out of buying things from producing players.

E: Unless they buy artefact weapons/armour, I guess - oh shi...