Classleads

Jovolo

Please cite where I said "parrying torso always prevents Heartseed, even against Sylvans with diadem."

Then realise I never said that and drop the stupid argument.

Iakimen

Jovolo said:

Please cite where I said "parrying torso always prevents Heartseed, even against Sylvans with diadem."

Then realise I never said that and drop the stupid argument.

Saying that you win against heartseed by parrying torso kind of means "parrying torso always prevents Heartseed, even against Sylvans with diadem." Winning is a generic statement, not a generalization that applies only to a few specific or even the majority of cases.

I realize that you're feeling a bit defensive when you're being called out on improper wording, but I dislike it when people give the wrong impression of playing defensively in combat - the forums abound enough in poor advice. You don't need to add to it.

Antonius

Not like it's the first time Jovolo has demonstrated that he's incapable of communicating ideas properly and then gets defensive when people don't know what he actually meant.

Jovolo

I said "pretty much" - note: This does not mean 100% - The entire tone of the phrase is "-ish". If anyone asked me to elaborate, I would have been fine with elaborating as I did above (a bit) when you mentioned it. I don't appreciate you calling me out on shit I didn't do, even continuing to do so after I already explained myself, and then going on to derail a thread with an argument because of it just to satiate your white-knighting ego. 

If you want to discuss Heartseed, there's already a thread for that. Let's agree to disagree if you seriously feel like this needs to continue for some reason, because I'm done with whatever the hell this is

Cooper

Jovolo doesn't understand how much damage Sylvans are putting out right now, and that the 'alternate curing' he talks about means you are prone on the ground for a very long time and will just die to the straight damage Sylvans deal out.

Jovolo

Ffs. You are not on the ground for "a very long time" unless the Sylvan is doing literally nothing to attack you - if they attack you, you apply and stand up four seconds later. And if they do this, vinewreathe will end making Heartseed a non-threat (because salve balance is quicker than Heartseed). Stop with the witch hunt ok. 

I understand they deal out a lot of damage! Hence my classlead to attempt to lower their dps. I've never said anything about their damage being fine. You only have to go back a few pages in this thread to know that.

Aktillum

Can we rename this thread to "Sylvans" because that's what the past 6 pages have been about ffs

Ernam

Aktillum said:

Can we rename this thread to "Sylvans" because that's what the past 6 pages have been about ffs

There's really not much more to say. Pretty much everyone seems to agree that sylvan damage is way too high, except for active sylvan players, who all agree that it is not.

Nakari

actually, most of us didn't seem to really contest that, either. I only took issue with some of the proposed fixes, though I probably don't count as active, so w/e.

Still, I do find it funny that the sylvan class seems to have become the scape-goat for attempts at balancing. Every time someone complains about occultists afflicting too fast or something, some occultist comes and says that's not the case and then everyone goes back to sylvan bashing. I trust the admins to check out the numbers, though. I certainly wouldn't complain about having some rage-inducing abilities on par with other rage inducing classes.

Bonko

Me summing up this thread:

Exelethril

How does anyone put on that much make up and not suffocate? 

Caladbolg

Jovolo said:

Yes you do, though.

Unless they invest 850 credits on a Diadem to bypass vinewreathe wearing off and standing up/shielding/flying/parry torso stopping their strategy, in which case alternate curing is needed. Who cares, Heartseed is fine. 

If you think "Prioritising torso" will save you from heartseed, then you don't understand how surviving (a properly set-up) heartseed works.

Level  : 84 (17.3%)  "2nd Circle of Celestial Power"                        |

| Age    : 222         Birthdate: 8th Scarlatan, 430AF    Class: Paladin      |

| Gender : Male        Race     : Satyr Brute                    Full member 

You are wearing:

      talisman190394      an Aldar talisman

One item was shown.

If I bought one as a Paladin why the hell wouldn't you add in one for a class that uses equib?

Wessux

Because money is hard to come by sometimes.

Nim

Because veils/cats/flowerpots.

Wessux

@Exelethril‌'s knight razeslash idea to bypass parry if shield and rebounding aren't up is a great idea in my book.

I've been tossing it around in my head and it seems pretty balanced. You sacrifice some affliction momentum and damage but it allows knights to prep a little faster. At optimal timing with average health it's still takes 30 or so seconds for one limb. That's still slower than all other limb prep classes.

And above all it doesn't change what knights can do, just allows knights to not take 5 minutes to setup a prep.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Nemutaur

Wessux said:

@Exelethril‌'s knight razeslash idea to bypass parry if shield and rebounding aren't up is a great idea in my book. I've been tossing it around in my head and it seems pretty balanced. You sacrifice some affliction momentum and damage but it allows knights to prep a little faster. At optimal timing with average health it's still takes 30 or so seconds for one limb. That's still slower than all other limb prep classes. And above all it doesn't change what knights can do, just allows knights to not take 5 minutes to setup a prep. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Maybe if speed were down as well, getting shield and rebounding down isn't hard if your opponent is attacking you.

Wessux

I disagree. A monks can completely set me up in 30 seconds. So can sylvans, magi, dragons, sentinels, druids, bards, and blademasters. Knights would only get the one limb. You also can just turtle down with the two making it much slower. The only place I see this as a problem is with some infernal setups, but really an infernal can do them even without the change. This just makes it so a knight can pull off one setup in the time everyone else to do one and a half instead of one to their three or four.

Aerek

I don't see why that's an issue. Every other dedicated limb-prep class has an ability to ignore parry outright, these days. Near as I can tell, Knights are one of the few remaining classes that still have to work to circumvent it, and a good opponent who knows the bypass methods can shut us down pretty effectively. (Other Knights can be especially difficult) Getting single hits through parry via RSL is still less effective than Monks' RHK, Sylvans' Vinewreathe, Blademasters' Airfist, and Druids' Hydra Bind, but makes it possible to prep those opponents who know how to foil our usual bypass methods.

Personally, I think it's an elegant solution. I don't think we need an ability that completely negates parry like Airfist or Vinewreathe does, because we do have other methods at our disposal, but when those other methods prove ineffective against an experienced opponent, it would be nice to have a fall-back method so we could at least complete a disembowel attempt, even if it makes us sacrifice the rest of our offense to use it. It would also give a reason to carry some of the more damaging weapons, which would be neat.

Klendathu

Just because every other class has an ability, doesn't mean every class should have it. Monks, for example, have no ability to strip shield, other than a mind throw or hammer tattoo. Betcha people would be (have been!) up in arms if anyone should suggest a shield-stripping attack for a monk.

Rangor

That's been suggested several times actually.

Wessux

Klendathu said:

Just because every other class has an ability, doesn't mean every class should have it. Monks, for example, have no ability to strip shield, other than a mind throw or hammer tattoo. Betcha people would be (have been!) up in arms if anyone should suggest a shield-stripping attack for a monk.

I can get behind that mentality....... until I fight a knights and laugh as they try all the bypass parry methods on me and fail. Dsb can be dodged and tends to be easily survived by high health/super artied people. I'm fine with that, what I'm not fine with is the amount of time a knight puts into his prep compared to other people.

Other classes setups you can't just tank, you either dodge or die. Knights you can tank and dodge, and it take 4-5 times longer against talented combatants. Far longer prep for far less reward.

Aerek

Klendathu said:

Just because every other class has an ability, doesn't mean every class should have it. Monks, for example, have no ability to strip shield, other than a mind throw or hammer tattoo. Betcha people would be (have been!) up in arms if anyone should suggest a shield-stripping attack for a monk.

If it were just one class that had it, and that was something special and unique to that class, I would agree with you. But in this case, Monks, Sylvans, Druids, Blademasters, Magi, and Dragons all have abilities that bypass parry with 100% efficiency. Knights are one the only classes left that don't have one of these 100% reliable methods. Don't get me wrong, Knights have a lot of tricks we can use to get around parry, but when an opponent knows all of those tricks, we can locked out of a fight pretty easily.

My concern is not that "other classes have this, so we need it too!" it's that other limb prep classes cannot fail to achieve their setup, and Knights can. You can always tumble away from a Monk's AXK setup or cure out of a Sylvan's Heartseed setup, but you can't actually prevent a Monk from prepping your legs, or prevent a Sylvan from prepping your legs and torso. It's a physical impossibility to do that; they'll always be able to set you up and attempt their finisher, often within 30 or 60 seconds. Against a Knight, though, if you know when to run, shield, or web, and if your curing priorities are optimized against us, it can be very close to impossible for us to ever touch that parried leg. So while a Monk will be able to attempt his BBT/AXK setup against an opponent every minute or so, a Knight can fight someone for 10 or 20 minutes and never even get to try a disembowel, and that's where I see the inequity.

Thus, I think Knights do need some sort of fall-back method for dealing with parry. When all of our other tricks fail, we need some sort of sub-par, last-choice method that does work consistently so that we can at least try our finisher, and I think the RSL classlead is at least a fair starting point for discussion. It sacrifices damage and venoms just to get a single hit on the parried limb, which means it would always be inferior to the Knights' usual methods when using rapiers. My only concern is that RSL'ing with a high-damage weapon like a battleaxe could actually be faster prepping than the traditional methods, since RSL isn't tied to weapon speed. Perhaps RSL could be modified by weapon speed to avoid that situation.

Nim

Although the battle-axe concern is legitimate, it could be a cool way to give knights weapon variety.

I do like the idea of a tradeoff between offensive output (damage + afflictions) and parry bypassing though. It might make randomly switching parrying a viable means of tanking otherwise absurd knight damage/hindering.

Jovolo

A reason I'm hesitant to endorse a 100% parry bypass for Knight is that a lot of the complaints stem from the apparent fact that "Disembowel is a literal impossibility on someone with good reactions and curing". - Parry bypass isn't going to help that, it's just going to identify the problem more readily because more people will be able to attempt a disembowel quickly in a fight, and it draws away from the actual problem and just wastes time. So for one, I think we're concentrating on the wrong problem, where parry provides an interesting (in my opinion) mechanic for Knight's to have to bypass an opponent's defense in order to get their quad prep, but the obvious fact is that this takes too long. An increase in limb damage from Swordplay seems to me, to be a good option to pursue there. 

My second issue comes from the impending weaponry overhaul which will affect Knights more than any other class, and could do a great deal to make any potential parry bypassing slashes, or whatever the current notion might be, either imbalanced, boring, or redundant. 

My main problem though is that I envision a combat scene where it will become easy for Knights to turtle and parrySlash their way to whatever prep they need, and then suddenly burst with limb breaks into what is now a very realistic rift-locking environment with vardrax and the classlead to make addiction consume both herbs and minerals, or disembowel, or damnation if Condemn and Hellsight classleads go through, or vivisect, focus-lock or even just arm breaks and damage. I'd prefer it if we could think of something that requires momentum in order to assuredly 100% bypass parry for Knights like Nairat methods, or paralysis/slickness, rather than just an 'RSL that negates parry'. Shrug.

Trey

Really, I'm willing to shelve the debate on Knight combat until we see what we get when the knight weaponry rework comes around.

Wessux

Trey said:

Really, I'm willing to shelve the debate on Knight combat until we see what we get when the knight weaponry rework comes around.

We've waited a year since they announced it and there is no sign of it coming soon.

Trey

Ernam

Give Riding a sweepkick like move, so knights can prone you then prone DSL. You'd sacrifice speed for perfect accuracy, just like every other party bypass.

Iocun

A woolly mammoth whips its legs around in a sweeping manner, knocking a stocky pony to the ground.

Mithridates

wait, magi have parry bypass?