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Aegoth

with Ring of Magus, Priest magic resistance, MR enchantment, trans constitution, algiz, I can reduce Lothiac's thornrend damage to about 1k and Alrena's lvl 1 collar thornrend to about 850-900. For reference, I have 4782 health with lvl 2 belt, bracelet and sip ring. That's a lot of investment on my part, though, so take it as you will.

Valdus

Jovolo said:

Removing the int bonus just is not a good change, lol. Changing it to "unblockable" damage type or cutting damage type that scales with int and collar and adjusting the formula to be properly effective considering high-end reduction but not broken against Bards/Monks and then also accounting for broken limbs is probably the best way to go. They don't really need the dps on thornrend they currently have. They already get bees, hailstorm and entities to negate many a persons sip in the first place. They have very effective, supremely quick prep that is very hard to prevent unless you're like two, maybe three of seventeen classes - lowering dps and increasing their burst during breaks and heart seed is the way to go. I can't think of any reason to not go for that other than being scared of not killing people during prep.

After further thought, I'm now of the strong opinion that simply changing the damage type would be enough of a change. I don't feel that the initial damage of the Thornrend shouldn't be a viable tactic in and of itself. I also feel that people complain more about Burst far more than sustained damage over time.

I also don't feel that extensive work to make it equal against classes tanky to Cutting (Knights etc) and less cutting resistant (Bard/Monk) is necessary. Those classes have the skills to survive/mitigate/avoid damage. It's also okay for the game to have classes that are 'squishier' than others.

So, yeah. Cutting damage boosted by Int and Collars. And that's even IF Thornrend needs a change. It seems like all these complaints are from people who have no defense versus Magic.


I also think Heartseed should do more damage when curing with two broken legs. As it is, it's pretty low.

Dartega

I have max level sip/regen + ring of magus and trans constitution and Lothiac style damage is still a bit absurd to fight against. In contrast, I can tank artie magi without needing to leave the room. Pretty sure Lothiac managed to kill me off straight thornrends in one of our fights after a leg broke. 

Rangor

Easier if makarios just does the numbers. Sylvan pretty boring class though. Damage and heartseed only viable strategies to go for. Remove damage from being potent and you got a shitty class.

Why isn't anyone being this unobjective when it comes to occies, monks and sentinels? Plz step it up.

Aegoth

Could be worse Rangor... Magi just have damage and we can't even hold people still.

Asmodron

Im wondering why we have  3 pages of discussion over 1 sylvan report....

Move along people, topic is getting stale.

Kross

Aegoth said:

Could be worse Rangor... Magi just have damage and we can't even hold people still.

Freeze ground, icewall, tentacle tattoo, instant limb cripple staff strikes not enough for you to keep someone put? Granted, it's no piety/tentacles/gravehands but you're better off than monks

Zuko

If we lose hunting runes, I may cry

Valdus

Zuko said:

If we lose hunting runes, I may cry

I've always been a fan of classes being able to buff other classes. It encourages player interaction. It allows Runewardens/Priests/etc to feel good being able to contribute to helping people. It's a nice perk.

I definitely don't feel like it imbalances anything.

Aepas

Sooo... Freezepound anyone?

Aegoth

Kross said:

Aegoth said:

Could be worse Rangor... Magi just have damage and we can't even hold people still.

Freeze ground, icewall, tentacle tattoo, instant limb cripple staff strikes not enough for you to keep someone put? Granted, it's no piety/tentacles/gravehands but you're better off than monks

If it were enough, people wouldn't have a lulzy ez time escaping mages. It's a pretty common consensus that mages are very very easy to escape if you do even a modicum of prep, so sadly I shall have to say that it's not enough. Mages also can't do 5k+ damage in one hit/combo :P

Rangor

Aegoth said:

Kross said:

Aegoth said:

Could be worse Rangor... Magi just have damage and we can't even hold people still.

Freeze ground, icewall, tentacle tattoo, instant limb cripple staff strikes not enough for you to keep someone put? Granted, it's no piety/tentacles/gravehands but you're better off than monks

If it were enough, people wouldn't have a lulzy ez time escaping mages. It's a pretty common consensus that mages are very very easy to escape if you do even a modicum of prep, so sadly I shall have to say that it's not enough. Mages also can't do 5k+ damage in one hit/combo :P

You just need more arties.

Holo at 10, hailstorm, trigger holo to hammer.

Terra

Rangor said:

Aegoth said:

Kross said:

Aegoth said:

Could be worse Rangor... Magi just have damage and we can't even hold people still.

Freeze ground, icewall, tentacle tattoo, instant limb cripple staff strikes not enough for you to keep someone put? Granted, it's no piety/tentacles/gravehands but you're better off than monks

If it were enough, people wouldn't have a lulzy ez time escaping mages. It's a pretty common consensus that mages are very very easy to escape if you do even a modicum of prep, so sadly I shall have to say that it's not enough. Mages also can't do 5k+ damage in one hit/combo :P

You just need more arties.

Holo at 10, hailstorm, trigger holo to hammer.

Wat. When did they take away retardation?

Rangor

plz, no one dies to retardation anymore.

Edoren

@Rangor i beg to differ. :P ...Oh wait we're talking about the vibe?

Iocun

Rangor said:

plz, no one dies to retardation anymore.

Yeah, nowadays people tank retardation like crazy. It's probably the damage reduction from speed elixir. Should probably buff retardation damage a bit.

Wessux

No one has mentioned this so maybe I'm crazy and misinformed, but resistances top out at 25%ish. So saying constitution, resistance ring, resistance skill, and priest blessing is a little pointless because after the ring you aren't getting much more.

Again I could be wrong but whatever. Also some more numbers. With algiz, resistance, and venom. They have 18 int and a diadem.

1300 targetted thornrend 2.2 seconds
500-600 bees 3ish seconds
ef 200-300 4ish seconds.

At 4440hp
Lvl 1 ring +human I'm sipping for 650-900 4 seconds
Moss at 350 six seconds
Boar 220 not sure but around 6 seconds

In 20 seconds I'm taking an average of 16250 damage and only healing an average of 6280. That's 10000 damage extra! And in that time they prepped two limbs and are working on the third.

This is in fact a little ridiculous. Just under 4 times my health in the time it takes them to setup two limbs. A little over twice my health over what I can heal in that time. Something needs to be done, what I don't know, but something.

P.s. Some of the times may be a little off, but that's a decent little outline so people have some perspective.

Jarrod

From various threads, I'm pretty sure resistance isn't capped at 25%.

However, resistance only affects 50% of the total damage, so '100%' resistance means half damage taken.

This could be wrong, but I feel like this has been stated a few times.

Wessux

I feel I remember reading @Sena math on the subject but I can't find it.

Sena

I've never heard of resistances having a cap, and if there is one, 25% seems very unlikely.

Resistances apply to the full damage. If you're hit by an attack that does 1000 damage, and you have algiz (10% resistance), you'll take 900 damage (or around 910 damage with nimble/quick-witted, since they reduce resistances by 10%, making algiz 9%). It's armour that only applies to part of the damage, but it's not generally 50% (it's different for each attack).

Alrena

@Wessux did that Sylvan have any further arties? Almost 30% damage is... too much when you have algiz and magic resistance. I remember an unartied sylvan doing no more than 25% damage, and I had no runes or magic resistance as magi. (too lazy to enchant)

Wessux

No further arties.

Rangor

@wessux double epteth+nairat rune = 0  thornrends ever.

Wessux

Sena said:

I've never heard of resistances having a cap, and if there is one, 25% seems very unlikely.

Resistances apply to the full damage. If you're hit by an attack that does 1000 damage, and you have algiz (10% resistance), you'll take 900 damage (or around 910 damage with nimble/quick-witted, since they reduce resistances by 10%, making algiz 9%). It's armour that only applies to part of the damage, but it's not generally 50% (it's different for each attack).

I feel like this was talked about when the resistance minor traits were around. But hell, like I said could be crazy.

Wessux

Rangor said:

@wessux double epteth+nairat rune = 0  thornrends ever.

I like people to have fun, and want to fight me again. I don't want them to just get bored and heartstop.

Alrena

Wessux said:

@wessux double epteth+nairat rune = 0  thornrends ever.

I like people to have fun, and want to fight me again. I don't want them to just get bored and heartstop.

Sticking Para from time to time will also slow a sylvan down. Knights honestly should not have any problem with Sylvans. I'm still not entirely sure your numbers are correct. You have the resistance ability, more health, algiz rune and I have a lvl 1 collar and 18 int. Still on @Aegoth, who has similar health to you, I do the same damage, though you have more resistances to magic damage than he had, and I had a boosting artie. I'm just confused, really.

Wessux

Everyone cures paralysis first and even at 1.9 dsl speed you will always have balance to cure it. You don't fight many people if you think that helps at all. If it were the case then fights with other knights would come down to whoever gets the first dsl in wins.

I could be wrong about the arties, but I don't believe I am. I wish I saved a log of it.

Cooper

Without her arties on and with mine on melodie took me from full to 0 in about 13 seconds (no transmute, with it I could last about 30 seconds but have no mana).

Dunn

@Jhui can attest to the damage with and without arties on both the sylvan and defender.

We tested with level 3 collar on/off, level 3 sash on/off for the aggressor.

He has sip ring, ring of magus, miniskills, etc. Tested with various on/off combos of these.

I nuked him with thornrend and bees.

Vadimuses

Strata said:

Alrena said:

... So pointless, that 90% of achaea doesn't know how to deal with heartseed. ...

Hopefully a fix for that will be in store for the 90% you speak of. Personally, I am working on getting into that 10% by replacing svo's salve curing with a completely custom system - something I should have done a year ago.

Myself and Lothiac have sent logs. He still doesn't see that there is a problem. For one, there is no autodetection of class - so when fighting sylvans you have to manually enable sylvan class tricks (not sure what that will do anyway).

Anti-illusion on heartseed just increases the time it takes for the system to recognize it. Meaning if you're fighting sylvan, might as well turn it off.

I have a log from fighting Twil where he managed to get torso in before heartseed - which means you're dead. But -might- have been survivable had svo not completely ignored salve priorities and wasted 2 salve applies on other things before resto'ing torso.

Didn't mean to derail - but... Not sure what the big fuss about sylvan damage is. Just break some shit and heartseed. Only people on custom built systems will survive it. If they're on svo, they're dead.

I do see there's a problem, and I posted on it: http://svo.vadisystems.com/2014/03/heartseed-priorities. The tl:dr; is that people apparently don't know how the systems priorities work. There'll be a fix for it, and you an quite fix it yourself by scripting Svo priorities.