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  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    it shouldn't, flying takes balance, and if you're fighting without a tentacle tattoo or any other way to drag them to the ground, that's pretty much their own fault
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • KuyKuy Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Valdus said:

    It seems to me that everybody complained about Monk damage, but there was a rather resistant outcry to lowering monk damage since there are a lot more Monks than there are Sylvans.

    I agree with @Kuy. My concern is that since people are suddenly dying to Sylvans they're going to get nerfed back into obscurity because there aren't enough Sylvan players to argue against the nerfs.

    Monk damage is crazy as well, yes. However, Lothiac-level sylvan damage is simply too much. It's one of those cases where you just don't stand a chance if you're not on his monetary tier. While anecdotal, as a shaman I can at least survive against Kross (another artied monk) if I play super super carefully. That doesn't happen against the sylvans I've ever fought. But anecdotal evidence is worth about nothing.

    Coming from my still limited experience, I really like @Alrena's suggestion of lowering (preferably greatly) the amount of damage a targeted thornrend does.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
    JhuiDartega
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Flying is annoying at least because you can just put a paperweight down on your enter key with 'fly' in the command input and you'll negate their offense.

    This is true for a lot of classes though, so it's hard to say if anything needs to be done about it or if it's another one of those 'if someone doesn't want to die and is smart they'll get away' situations.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,942 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Flying being stopped by tentacles was rejected last classlead round and nothing has changed since.
    Kuy said:
    People keep saying Sylvans were irrelevant until recently.  I don't think that's because of the classlead changes to them.  I think it's more because some people who know what they are doing became sylvans and lots of folk still struggle with heartseed.

    The damage is just icing on the cake.
    Sylvan was irrelevant because it was almost mechanically impossible for them to kill anybody. Saying it's because "some people who know what they are doing became sylvans" seems pretty insulting to the Sylvan(s) who did all of the work involved with actually making it a viable class.
    AlrenaTharvis
  • ValdusValdus AustraliaMember Posts: 598 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I think the last thing @Kuy wanted to do was insult anyone. =/

    Viva la Bluef.
    Kuy
  • KuyKuy Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    Flying being stopped by tentacles was rejected last classlead round and nothing has changed since.
    Kuy said:
    People keep saying Sylvans were irrelevant until recently.  I don't think that's because of the classlead changes to them.  I think it's more because some people who know what they are doing became sylvans and lots of folk still struggle with heartseed.

    The damage is just icing on the cake.
    Sylvan was irrelevant because it was almost mechanically impossible for them to kill anybody. Saying it's because "some people who know what they are doing became sylvans" seems pretty insulting to the Sylvan(s) who did all of the work involved with actually making it a viable class.
    Contrary to popular belief, not everything everyone says is meant to be derogatory.  Sylvans didn't have any top-tier fighters who understood the intricacy of the class's mechanics.  Then suddenly they did.  Then suddenly everyone know how to pull of a reliable instakill against most of the playerbase's population.

    The other option is that Sylvans did have these people, but they just didn't do anything.

    So, which interpretation is more palatable to you: all the Sylvans before sucked ass, or there just weren't many Sylvans who gave two fucks about fighting?

    It sincerely bothers me that you'd think I would insult anyone but Strata.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
    Valdus
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,814 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm insulted, @Kuy. Go back to lolsternia
  • KuyKuy Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aegoth said:
    I'm insulted, @Kuy. Go back to lolsternia
    Then people will bitch about Shuck again.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • AlrenaAlrena Member Posts: 647 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited April 2014
    @Kuy he's saying that before the Heartseed changes came through, nobody would ever die to it as the timer on it was just too long and made it very easy to cure (I personally just paused system and applied restoration manually, and I never died). On top of that, thornrend was Strength based, while every other ability was Intelligence based. This made going for damage much harder, if not impossible.

    Sylvan -has- become more appealing because now, it -is- possible to kill all but the most inexperienced people, and so more people have changed to Sylvan for combat purposes. This is a mix of the appeal of a class that is relatively unexplored yet, and the fact that Heartseed is the most badass way to kill people, obviously. (partially joking, but Sylvan is a very appealing class with the flavour of Viridian and heartseed, at least in my opinion)

    I suppose the real question is: is Sylvan's momentum damage as they prep worse than a Monk's burst damage? Or, removing the comparison between classes, is momentum damage worse than burst damage?
    image
    Exelethril
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    Flying being stopped by tentacles was rejected last classlead round and nothing has changed since.
    Kuy said:
    People keep saying Sylvans were irrelevant until recently.  I don't think that's because of the classlead changes to them.  I think it's more because some people who know what they are doing became sylvans and lots of folk still struggle with heartseed.

    The damage is just icing on the cake.
    Sylvan was irrelevant because it was almost mechanically impossible for them to kill anybody. Saying it's because "some people who know what they are doing became sylvans" seems pretty insulting to the Sylvan(s) who did all of the work involved with actually making it a viable class.
    I killed people as a Sylvan before the changes, so I have to agree with @Antonius. You suck @Kuy your not my friend anymore!

    image
  • CahinCahin Member Posts: 1,246 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Xer said:
    As a note, no one needed to know how to cure Sylvan heartseed before its timer got buffed because you could cure both broken legs, torso and heartseed in the standard way and heartseed still wouldn't kill anyone if it were done in time. I think it got buffed from 12 to 11? Something along those lines. The buff to heartseed time is what allows artied Sylvan to kill people with it assuming most standard curing. But now I go back to my hidey hole and study for my finals so I can maintain my scholarships and not have to live on 10 dollars a day for food lol.
    @Xer That's all they pay for you selling those Dysons?

    Hasar
  • XerXer LangleyMember Posts: 804
    edited April 2014
    Lol, I'm just slave labour to the university as a grad student T_T Pouring out that coffee, marking papers like a monkey, and going to meetings for the free food.

    And I actually have more than that lol, was an exaggeration - 10 a day for food is plenty if you cook for sure, but at present, all of that time is spent on studying for finals. I'm more than fine - IF I maintain my grades and my scholarships haha
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    e^(iπ) + 1 = 0
    Sheltan
  • CahinCahin Member Posts: 1,246 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Xer So they don't even pay you for the Dyson airblade gig?  That's terrible man.

  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,372 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    never had an issue facing sylvan damage, always found it easy to hinder in 1 v 1. Don't really see it as an issue in groups because it ain't fun if there is no risk. I fight monks that do more damage every 2 seconds, and prep quicker. 

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    ValdusAchimrstIsera
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,336 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You haven't fought in months, if not years. You haven't faced new sylvan damage yet.

    Aepas
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,372 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    i have raided eleusis every day for a week!

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    AchimrstIsera
  • KafzielKafziel Member Posts: 658 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Iakimen said:
    Certainly, if a change is made by the administration, it is up to the playerbase to adapt to the changes, not to use classleads to change it back into a state more suitable for them.
    Not sure I follow the logic here.

    As to the general topic of sylvan damage, I don't think it's just that the damage is ridiculous on the higher end, it's that it's ridiculous on the higher end WHILE doing 4-5s of salve balance every 10 seconds, also not being stopped by rebounding/parry, and then with bees/wildgrowth/freeze ground and the potential to be instakilled off limb breaks. And that's not even getting into sylvan defence, which imo is one of the best in the game (barrier/reflect/sandling/grove return etc). I actually find artied magi damage more threatening, but you can just walk away from a magi and they have to focus in vibes or fight without them. Against a sylvan you're eating wildgrowth/frozen ground just to get away, and then 99% of the time they lose nothing if just they follow you and you're back at square one.

    I'd be all for a way of making it more strategic (greatly increase the amount of damage cured heartseed with broken limbs does, for instance) and toning down base thornrend a bit.
  • ValdusValdus AustraliaMember Posts: 598 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I'm still of the opinion with @Blujixapug that if you change the damage type to cutting while having it still scale with Int and artifacts (Because face it, Achaea needs revenue and if you remove reasons to buy artifacts you are literally removing revenue) the problem would be solved.

    Viva la Bluef.
  • IakimenIakimen Member Posts: 104 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 2014
    Kafziel said:
    Iakimen said:
    Certainly, if a change is made by the administration, it is up to the playerbase to adapt to the changes, not to use classleads to change it back into a state more suitable for them.
    Not sure I follow the logic here.

    I'm not sure how that was difficult to understand, in all honesty. I am saying that I see poor adaptation from the fighting playerbase to the new Sylvan, despite the fact that once adapted to, the new Sylvan isn't difficult to deal with - it just requires some actual defensive play on setups, unlike the old Sylvan. Current classleads and thoughts with Sylvan thornrend nerfs seem to arise from a lack of understanding and a desire to change it back to a realm that most people are familar with (cutting type with an increase from intelligence, for example - that's just a suggestion I've heard that's been popular lately), despite the fact that, to my knowledge and experience from fighting artied Sylvans, thornrends are easy to deal with if you're at a roughly equivalent  skill and artefact level. I don't particularly care about the unartied vs artied Sylvan matchup - comparing and basing fair combat mechanics off of a match-up that already has a significant one-sided advantage is a tad naive, in my opinion.

    Sylvan defense isn't particularly relevant here. I won't deny its strength, but as we're regarding the issue of how artied thornrends may be too strong, their defensive capabilities aren't important - or more, they are important in their ability to turtle and slow-prep, but slow-prep also naturally means that their innate damage from thornrends in itself is slowed, and so thornrend damage in turn shouldn't be an issue (as for whether you think the Sylvan's ability to slow-prep is a problem, that's different). Thornrends aren't at all difficult to slow down - while they have one of the faster preps and solid damage, they are inferior to classes like BMs/fast Knights/Sentinels, that have the innate advantage of being a prep class that can actively hinder during their prep. Certainly though, I'd agree that running away from a Sylvan isn't as simple as walking - but it's not that difficult, either. Wildgrowth is simple enough to get away from, and I've never fought a Sylvan and allowed them to keep frozen ground during the fight - that's highly detrimental for you if you do plan on running.

    To be frank, I haven't seen anyone die to artied Sylvan damage who are defensively specced (constitution, ring of magus, magic resistance ring, possibly resistance, sip ring) short of a holocaust setup, and without playing defensively at proper moments (e.g fly, tumble behind an obstruction while curing heartseed, etc.). Perhaps if I see logs I may change my opinion.
    ValdusIsera
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2014
    Level 1 belt, level 2 sip, level 1 hp regen, lvl 1 bracelets, SoA
    50/20 scalemail
    5460 max health

    Died to Lothiac in <6 thornrends (+bees) @ 1.7k per thornrend. I think I was at like 35% health before getting balance back from my second fashion.

    Not mad cause he's way more artied than me.

  • ValdusValdus AustraliaMember Posts: 598 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Aktillum said:
    Level 1 belt, level 2 sip, level 1 hp regen, lvl 1 bracelets, SoA
    50/20 scalemail
    5460 max health

    Died to Lothiac in <6 thornrends (+bees) @ 1.7k per thornrend. I think I was at like 35% health before getting balance back from my second fashion.

    Not mad cause he's way more artied than me.
    None of that except perhaps the sip ring and your health is useful in this instance, since the armor doesn't effect Thornrend because it is Magic damage type.

    Does SoA absorb Thornrend? If so, add it to the other ways to mitigate Thornrend damage that Iakimen listed.

    Viva la Bluef.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Valdus said:
    Does SoA absorb Thornrend?
    No, it only absorbs cutting and blunt.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,942 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Valdus Health regen is relevant, but at less than six thornrends you're not going to get much use from it. Probably only one tick, maybe two if you're really lucky on timing.
  • ValdusValdus AustraliaMember Posts: 598 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Antonius said:
    @Valdus Health regen is relevant, but at less than six thornrends you're not going to get much use from it. Probably only one tick, maybe two if you're really lucky on timing.
    Ah, I must have skimmed over the level 1 health regen. Yes, it is indeed relevant.


    Still, I'm not surprised that zero mitigation versus Magic results in a strong Thornrend. The damage type is the issue, rather than the damage itself.

    Viva la Bluef.
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Iakimen said:

    To be frank, I haven't seen anyone die to artied Sylvan damage who are defensively specced (constitution, ring of magus, magic resistance ring, possibly resistance, sip ring) short of a holocaust setup, and without playing defensively at proper moments (e.g fly, tumble behind an obstruction while curing heartseed, etc.). Perhaps if I see logs I may change my opinion.

    That's con-spec horkval, level 2 sip ring. Obviously I wasn't playing defensively there, not in Mir and I think my magic resist ring had faded. Definitely hurts if you're not ready for it. Haven't had much of a chance to see how hard it will be to survive when expecting that much damage.
    Josoul
  • ValdusValdus AustraliaMember Posts: 598 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I want to see some numbers versus people with good magic resist, if anyone has some.

    Viva la Bluef.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,942 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'll see if I can find a Sylvan to test with when I get home from work (so in about seven hours). Level three belt, bracelets, sip ring, level two health regen, perma boar, resistance, magic resistance ring, Trans Constitution, ring of the magus. Basically as tanky as it's possible to get without respeccing for sip traits and constitution over strength.
    ValdusMelodie
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    ask Twil, @Antonius
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

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