Classleads

Iocun

Yes. Holocaust bypasses parry.

Mithridates

so true.

Caladbolg

Aerek said:

I don't see why that's an issue. Every other dedicated limb-prep class has an ability to ignore parry outright, these days. Near as I can tell, Knights are one of the few remaining classes that still have to work to circumvent it, and a good opponent who knows the bypass methods can shut us down pretty effectively. (Other Knights can be especially difficult) Getting single hits through parry via RSL is still less effective than Monks' RHK, Sylvans' Vinewreathe, Blademasters' Airfist, and Druids' Hydra Bind, but makes it possible to prep those opponents who know how to foil our usual bypass methods.

Personally, I think it's an elegant solution. I don't think we need an ability that completely negates parry like Airfist or Vinewreathe does, because we do have other methods at our disposal, but when those other methods prove ineffective against an experienced opponent, it would be nice to have a fall-back method so we could at least complete a disembowel attempt, even if it makes us sacrifice the rest of our offense to use it. It would also give a reason to carry some of the more damaging weapons, which would be neat.

Airfist isn't 100% against parry, it's actually worthless percent and you use voidfist para instead..

True story.

Jacen

When did 50% become worthless? Guess I shouldn't sweepkick, worthless ability

Caladbolg

About the time you hit Parry 50 times in a row, is 100% against guarding though!

Hell your better off doing pommel neck pommel neck slash or pommel/knees on enemy attack then slashing to bypass parry as a bm.

Nim

Was gonna suggest deterministic alternatives for air/voidfist, but then work.

Caladbolg

Nim said:

Was gonna suggest deterministic alternatives for air/voidfist, but then work.

The problem with Airfist is the rng effect of it. Sure you might be able to fully prep someone off airfist one time and the next person you hit them for 5 minutes straight with airfist up and think to your self, why am I doing this void para.

Knights problem with this is the fact that preping let's take Draqoom for example is 3 legslashes left 3 legslashes right in mir,thyr and Sanya if I remember correctly.

Draqoom with my current rapiers (74/74) is 18 hits, 16 if runed (84/84) While knights pretty much can bypass parry with afflictions, (causing them to eat something other than para) It takes at min 3 hits. to preform meaning to bypass parry (at least with my speed rapiers) is 6 seconds to hit one limb.

in other words if Draqoom just does guard right leg, using that method to get around takes.. almost two minutes to prep one limb. assuming you never get hindred and just do that combo the entire time. (when in reality that shit ain't happenin.

Still I liked my classlead of allowing a two hander to bypass parry since Knights can't venom stack that way and it reduces there speed by a ton. but guess other people wanna razeslash randomly to bypass parry >_>

Jacen

I always assumed a knight's prep was so long because they can choose to be very offensive during their prep, or very hindering. If you had to deal with that on top of avoiding the disembowel chain every 30 seconds... ouch. 

Caladbolg

Jacen said:

I always assumed a knight's prep was so long because they can choose to be very offensive during their prep, or very hindering. If you had to deal with that on top of avoiding the disembowel chain every 30 seconds... ouch. 

Which is why I liked my classlead of a two hander bypassing parry >.> No double venoms no offensive or hindering ability >_> Razeslash bypassing parry really doesn't make sense to me unless the change would be to raze parry for the slash. which would stop speed from being able to be razed. not sure why it can be razed to start with though.

Wessux

Caladbolg said:

Jacen said:

I always assumed a knight's prep was so long because they can choose to be very offensive during their prep, or very hindering. If you had to deal with that on top of avoiding the disembowel chain every 30 seconds... ouch. 

Which is why I liked my classlead of a two hander bypassing parry >.> No double venoms no offensive or hindering ability >_> Razeslash bypassing parry really doesn't make sense to me unless the change would be to raze parry for the slash. which would stop speed from being able to be razed. not sure why it can be razed to start with though.

The classlead is to make it so if they don't have shield or rebounding that razeslash will have the first sword "counter" their parry and the second sword bypassing. This slows your venom stacking and offensive abilities. Also if you hit me with a bastard sword as a knight that is a free dsb. It's a little over 4 seconds balance, so I delph you, impale you, dsb before you have time to finish writhing off.


Edit: Also the gecko method for knights is 50/50 unless your opponent has bad prios.

Wessux

Jacen said:

I always assumed a knight's prep was so long because they can choose to be very offensive during their prep, or very hindering. If you had to deal with that on top of avoiding the disembowel chain every 30 seconds... ouch. 

If this were the case monk's prep should take hours not seconds.

Iocun

Parry has a real problem these days.

In theory, parry is an awesome mechanic, because it's potentially a tactical minigame in itself, in which two parties attempt to guess their opponent's next move and prevent it. That sort of mechanic is so great because it's one of the few defensive measures that scripts generally won't be better at than a clever human - or at most insignificantly so.

The reason this only is a theoretical fact and not the case in practice is that "avoiding the next hit" is usually not a major concern in limb-based combat. The major concern is to avoid a particular limb being hit altogether, as this happens to be the most efficient way to prolong overall prepping time. This leads to static parry, which isn't very interesting as a defensive tactic, and merely serves as an annoyance to the preppers. And in order for static parrying not being overpowered, limb-breaking classes rightfully ask for ways to circumvent parry - which in the end leads to parry actually affecting combat ever less.

Small "fixes" to improve or downgrade the individual classes' abilities to circumvent parry don't fix the underlying issue of static parrying being superior to "predictive parrying", which is, IMHO, what should truly be looked at, if we want parry to remain an interesting, useful, yet not OP ability.

One of the main reasons why "predictive parrying" isn't very useful is that limb preppers don't rely on momentum, whereas those that do rely on momentum (e.g. damage knights) aren't actually hindered by parry, since they don't target limbs in the first place. Seeing as there's already a trend towards placing a greater focus on momentum (e.g. kai changes, limb damage wearing off), I would consider experimenting with bonuses based on getting multiple targeted hits on a target in a row (without said target's parrying being disabled).

If, for instance, using cleverly targeted attacks would increase the momentum damage potential of knights, this would act as an incentive to use variable targeting and variable parrying and would, as a side effect, serve to make the threat of damage a means to prep limbs. We'd end up with knights that aren't either momentum damage knights or limb breakers, but knights which use both of those things to complement each other, which is IMHO much more interesting anyways.

I've wanted to classlead something in that direction for a long time now, but I haven't really come up with a good thought-out mechanic for it yet.

Aerek

That would be ideal, but I wouldn't know how to keep it far. Knights can already run close to unmanageable if you don't have good cutting defense, so adding a bonus for momentum seems risky.

To be fair, I do like the nuances that have come from static parry. All of the tricks and methods that Knights have developed over the years to get around parry are a great example of why I like this game, and I would hate for a new ability or change to make all of that IC R&D obsolete and unnecessary. My dream solution would be one that is slower or less effective than our existing venom and limb break tricks, so that we keep using those in most cases, but that provides a fail-safe for the foes that know all of our tricks and leave us feeling helpless and frustrated.

Ernam

I have two ideas for Parry.  They are both called Strikeslash, but are two different implementations.

First Implementation: ------------

Strikeslash <target> 

• Works like RSL.  Performs a "strike" followed by a slash.

• Assumes a targeted limb prior to use (akin to DSL/RSL)

• The "strike" strikes the arms of the target, disabling their parry for the current attack only (allowing a single, unparriable slash to go through).

Second Implementation: --------- (I like this one better)

Strikeslash <target> <limb>

• Is not at all like RSL/DSL.  Completely separate attack.

• If the target is parrying the targeted limb, their arms are struck, and their Parry is disabled for 3 seconds.

• If the target is -not- parrying the targeted limb, it does essentially nothing (like a missed BBT).

• This would allow at least two un-parryable DSLs directly after this attack.

Thoughts?

Trey

Ernam said:

I have two ideas for Parry.  They are both called Strikeslash, but are two different implementations.

First Implementation: ------------

Strikeslash <target> 

• Works like RSL.  Performs a "strike" followed by a slash.

• Assumes a targeted limb prior to use (akin to DSL/RSL)

• The "strike" strikes the arms of the target, disabling their parry for the current attack only (allowing a single, unparriable slash to go through).

Second Implementation: --------- (I like this one better)

Strikeslash <target> <limb>

• Is not at all like RSL/DSL.  Completely separate attack.

• If the target is parrying the targeted limb, their arms are struck, and their Parry is disabled for 3 seconds.

• If the target is -not- parrying the targeted limb, it does essentially nothing (like a missed BBT).

• This would allow at least two un-parryable DSLs directly after this attack.

Thoughts?

It's not a terrible idea, the second in particular, but it's also not even close to enough time for two DSLs. One tops, which isn't terrible, but it won't do what you want.

Rangor

Classleads closed, too late for good ideas now @Ernam

Aerek

For reference, if we assume I have a 2-second DSL and it takes 14 hits to break my opponent, it can take me as long as 40 seconds to prep someone's parried limb by breaking both arms and going for the leg, (Assuming they have sub-optimal priorities that let me prep the leg in one go) or 56 seconds using the gecko bypass, (Assuming it works every time, but really it's 50/50)

With that in mind, the first option is functionally identical to the proposed RSL change, and would take 30 seconds to prep the parried limb. That's a little more effective than anything we currently have, which would make all of our current methods obsolete. I'd like to avoid that if we can, so this implementation could be cool if the balance on it was something long-ish, like 3.5 or 4 seconds, (3.2 or 3.6 with Nimble) so the total time-to-prep was something like 38-43 seconds. (Same length as our current methods, but without any damage or venom build-up)

The second method would take me 27 seconds if I just alternated between SSL/DSL. (Assuming 2.5 seconds on SSL) or 19.5 seconds if I get 2 DSLs for every SSL. I think that's a bit too effective. I'd rather go with the first idea, which is basically what Exelethril proposed.

Cooper

You won't be using a rapier on that rsl, it will be a battleaxe. You'll actually be prepping quite fast.

Edit: referring to the rsl bypass idea

Aerek

Yeah, that's a concern I posted last page, and something I don't really have an answer for.

Eld

Aerek said:

Klendathu said:

Just because every other class has an ability, doesn't mean every class should have it. Monks, for example, have no ability to strip shield, other than a mind throw or hammer tattoo. Betcha people would be (have been!) up in arms if anyone should suggest a shield-stripping attack for a monk.

If it were just one class that had it, and that was something special and unique to that class, I would agree with you. But in this case, Monks, Sylvans, Druids, Blademasters, Magi, and Dragons all have abilities that bypass parry with 100% efficiency. Knights are one the only classes left that don't have one of these 100% reliable methods. Don't get me wrong, Knights have a lot of tricks we can use to get around parry, but when an opponent knows all of those tricks, we can locked out of a fight pretty easily.

Just as a note, airfist is only 100% against guarding. Not sure what the actual rate is on parry, but would guess somewhere around 50%. Doesn't have much affect on your point, though, since blademasters have enough options that parrying isn't much of a concern anyway. 

Aelios

Okay, so... NEW discussion, since disembowel was brought up... : 

Report #231

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Submitted by: Aelios         Status      : Submitted

Skill       : Chivalry       Ability     : Disembowel

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Problem:

As it stands, anyone can completely negate the torso damage modifier of a disembowel with a simple tumble. Once the prep work for a disembowel is in place, if someone tumbles on a leg break - or at all - before the in room Disembowel is complete, the tumble-forced disembowel will not take into account torso damage modifiers. This is a problem because, with a decent amount of health, you can guarantee not ever dying to a disembowel (broken torso or not) by simply tumbling. Any and all work put in to break the torso is 100% negated at this point, and the three knight classes (Infernal, Runewarden, Paladin) have zero counters for it. Out of those three classes, Runewarden must solely rely on Disembowel as a kill method, as there are zero alternatives, making killing anyone with sizable health or above quite an almost impossible feat.

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Solution #1:

Tumble / Impale disembowels take into account torso damage, and would work the same as an in-room disembowel.

Solution #2:

Add an additional limb's balance cost to tumble if impaled.

Solution #3:

Increase the base damage of a Disembowel, allowing a better "chance" to kill your target if they've got high health and tumble.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kross

Stop using dainty ass rapiers?

Aelios

Kross said:

Stop using dainty ass rapiers?

76/172/249 's.

Jarrod

You misunderstand. All rapiers are dainty compared to real swords.

Aerek

RE: Solution #1
Making the tumble-off damage respect torso damage essentially means that you get disemboweled if you do tumble, and you get disemboweled if you don't tumble. I don't think I need to explain why that's bad.

RE: Solution #2
If they start a tumble while impaled, it's too late already, and you'll disembowel them. People tumble off because they start tumbling long before you've impaled them, which means this won't help at all.

RE: Solution #3
This runs the same problem as #1. Either the damage is not comparable to a real disembowel, which means folks still won't die to it, or it is comparable to a disembowel, which means it's essentially impossible to escape a disembowel.

Cooper

After 2+ minutes of prep, you should be able to kill your opponent if they stick around without them being able to do much about it.

Jarrod

Cooper said:

After 2+ minutes of prep, you should be able to kill your opponent if they stick around without them being able to do much about it.

This is bad logic. The only way to 'reset' this situation is to wait 5 minutes for limbs to reset. What you're suggesting is that every two minutes the knight's opponent should be forced to take a five minute break or die.

Kuy

Cooper said:

After 2+ minutes of prep, you should be able to kill your opponent if they stick around without them being able to do much about it.

I disagree with this sentiment (not saying there's nothing wrong, mind you - I just disagree with this).

Momentum classes have to keep at it from start to finish without messing up part way through.

Prep classes, as a fact, do not.  A prep class can run out, spam shield, or do any other sort of sly trick to turtle up without losing much in the way of progress.

Because of this discrepancy, just because you were able to prep your opponent does not mean you should now have a guaranteed kill on them.  By signing up for a prep class, you are signing up to learn BOTH the prep and the execution of whatever kill method you choose to use.  There should never be a time when the execution is 100% guaranteed with only the effort of prep; all prep classes should be required to not only perform their prep well, but also perform the execution that follows equally as well.

To be quite frank, from all the logs I've witnessed, there are very few people I would ever trust to claim that there is, in fact, a problem with the knight classes (perhaps barring Infernal, from the looks of banter).  The rest of those knights who piss away and moan and complain tend to only show their ability to stack insane amounts of damage (which, mind you, I support when set up properly - not merely artie-ing your soul away, spending 2k cr on rapiers, and leaning on your thurisaz/hugalaz/dslwithcurare+prefarar macro) or to perform only the lamest tactics (for example, spamming nothing but double epteth or relying on delphinium dsls after a totem hit).

(Luckily, a lot of the people that are trustworthy on the subject also claim there is a inherent problem, so at least you have that going for you.)

Hasar

Delph dsls off a totem, I wouldn't classify that as lame, really. If you're fighting a runewarden and don't check for a prop or don't have metawake on before moving to them, that's your fault.

Double epteth is annoying though.

Mithridates

Hasar said:

Delph dsls off a totem, I wouldn't classify that as lame, really. If you're fighting a runewarden and don't check for a prop or don't have metawake on before moving to them, that's your fault.

Double epteth is annoying though.

so annoying