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  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,741 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Really, I'm willing to shelve the debate on Knight combat until we see what we get when the knight weaponry rework comes around.

    JovoloAlexandre
  • WessuxWessux ChattanoogaMember Posts: 510 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Trey said:
    Really, I'm willing to shelve the debate on Knight combat until we see what we get when the knight weaponry rework comes around.
    We've waited a year since they announced it and there is no sign of it coming soon.
    Invest in a 9mm retirement plan.
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,741 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    image

    AlexandreWessux
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Give Riding a sweepkick like move, so knights can prone you then prone DSL. You'd sacrifice speed for perfect accuracy, just like every other party bypass.

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
      1. IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        edited April 2014
        A woolly mammoth whips its legs around in a sweeping manner, knocking a stocky pony to the ground.
        Alexandre
      2. MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean
        wait, magi have parry bypass?
      3. MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean
        so true.
        Jukilian
      4. CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        Aerek said:
        I don't see why that's an issue. Every other dedicated limb-prep class has an ability to ignore parry outright, these days. Near as I can tell, Knights are one of the few remaining classes that still have to work to circumvent it, and a good opponent who knows the bypass methods can shut us down pretty effectively. (Other Knights can be especially difficult) Getting single hits through parry via RSL is still less effective than Monks' RHK, Sylvans' Vinewreathe, Blademasters' Airfist, and Druids' Hydra Bind, but makes it possible to prep those opponents who know how to foil our usual bypass methods.

        Personally, I think it's an elegant solution. I don't think we need an ability that completely negates parry like Airfist or Vinewreathe does, because we do have other methods at our disposal, but when those other methods prove ineffective against an experienced opponent, it would be nice to have a fall-back method so we could at least complete a disembowel attempt, even if it makes us sacrifice the rest of our offense to use it. It would also give a reason to carry some of the more damaging weapons, which would be neat.
        Airfist isn't 100% against parry, it's actually worthless percent and you use voidfist para instead..

        True story.

        Dalran
      5. JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,304 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        When did 50% become worthless? Guess I shouldn't sweepkick, worthless ability
        image
      6. CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        edited April 2014
        About the time you hit Parry 50 times in a row, is 100% against guarding though!


        Hell your better off doing pommel neck pommel neck slash or pommel/knees on enemy attack then slashing to bypass parry as a bm.

      7. NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Was gonna suggest deterministic alternatives for air/voidfist, but then work. :(
      8. CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        Nim said:
        Was gonna suggest deterministic alternatives for air/voidfist, but then work. :(
        The problem with Airfist is the rng effect of it. Sure you might be able to fully prep someone off airfist one time and the next person you hit them for 5 minutes straight with airfist up and think to your self, why am I doing this void para.

        Knights problem with this is the fact that preping let's take Draqoom for example is 3 legslashes left 3 legslashes right in mir,thyr and Sanya if I remember correctly.

        Draqoom with my current rapiers (74/74) is 18 hits, 16 if runed (84/84) While knights pretty much can bypass parry with afflictions, (causing them to eat something other than para) It takes at min 3 hits. to preform meaning to bypass parry (at least with my speed rapiers) is 6 seconds to hit one limb.

        in other words if Draqoom just does guard right leg, using that method to get around takes.. almost two minutes to prep one limb. assuming you never get hindred and just do that combo the entire time. (when in reality that shit ain't happenin.

        Still I liked my classlead of allowing a two hander to bypass parry since Knights can't venom stack that way and it reduces there speed by a ton. but guess other people wanna razeslash randomly to bypass parry >_>

      9. JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,304 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        I always assumed a knight's prep was so long because they can choose to be very offensive during their prep, or very hindering. If you had to deal with that on top of avoiding the disembowel chain every 30 seconds... ouch. 

        image
      10. CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        Jacen said:
        I always assumed a knight's prep was so long because they can choose to be very offensive during their prep, or very hindering. If you had to deal with that on top of avoiding the disembowel chain every 30 seconds... ouch. 

        Which is why I liked my classlead of a two hander bypassing parry >.> No double venoms no offensive or hindering ability >_> Razeslash bypassing parry really doesn't make sense to me unless the change would be to raze parry for the slash. which would stop speed from being able to be razed. not sure why it can be razed to start with though.

      11. WessuxWessux ChattanoogaMember Posts: 510 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        edited April 2014
        Caladbolg said:


        Jacen said:

        I always assumed a knight's prep was so long because they can choose to be very offensive during their prep, or very hindering. If you had to deal with that on top of avoiding the disembowel chain every 30 seconds... ouch. 


        Which is why I liked my classlead of a two hander bypassing parry >.> No double venoms no offensive or hindering ability >_> Razeslash bypassing parry really doesn't make sense to me unless the change would be to raze parry for the slash. which would stop speed from being able to be razed. not sure why it can be razed to start with though.

        The classlead is to make it so if they don't have shield or rebounding that razeslash will have the first sword "counter" their parry and the second sword bypassing. This slows your venom stacking and offensive abilities. Also if you hit me with a bastard sword as a knight that is a free dsb. It's a little over 4 seconds balance, so I delph you, impale you, dsb before you have time to finish writhing off.


        Edit: Also the gecko method for knights is 50/50 unless your opponent has bad prios.
        Invest in a 9mm retirement plan.
      12. WessuxWessux ChattanoogaMember Posts: 510 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        Jacen said:

        I always assumed a knight's prep was so long because they can choose to be very offensive during their prep, or very hindering. If you had to deal with that on top of avoiding the disembowel chain every 30 seconds... ouch. 


        If this were the case monk's prep should take hours not seconds.
        Invest in a 9mm retirement plan.
      13. AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        That would be ideal, but I wouldn't know how to keep it far. Knights can already run close to unmanageable if you don't have good cutting defense, so adding a bonus for momentum seems risky.

        To be fair, I do like the nuances that have come from static parry. All of the tricks and methods that Knights have developed over the years to get around parry are a great example of why I like this game, and I would hate for a new ability or change to make all of that IC R&D obsolete and unnecessary. My dream solution would be one that is slower or less effective than our existing venom and limb break tricks, so that we keep using those in most cases, but that provides a fail-safe for the foes that know all of our tricks and leave us feeling helpless and frustrated.
        -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
        NimWessux
      14. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        edited April 2014
        I have two ideas for Parry.  They are both called Strikeslash, but are two different implementations.

        First Implementation: ------------

        Strikeslash <target> 
        • Works like RSL.  Performs a "strike" followed by a slash.
        • Assumes a targeted limb prior to use (akin to DSL/RSL)
        • The "strike" strikes the arms of the target, disabling their parry for the current attack only (allowing a single, unparriable slash to go through).


        Second Implementation: --------- (I like this one better)

        Strikeslash <target> <limb>
        • Is not at all like RSL/DSL.  Completely separate attack.
        • If the target is parrying the targeted limb, their arms are struck, and their Parry is disabled for 3 seconds.
        • If the target is -not- parrying the targeted limb, it does essentially nothing (like a missed BBT).
        • This would allow at least two un-parryable DSLs directly after this attack.



        Thoughts?

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
            Exelethril
          1. TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,741 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Ernam said:
            I have two ideas for Parry.  They are both called Strikeslash, but are two different implementations.

            First Implementation: ------------

            Strikeslash <target> 
            • Works like RSL.  Performs a "strike" followed by a slash.
            • Assumes a targeted limb prior to use (akin to DSL/RSL)
            • The "strike" strikes the arms of the target, disabling their parry for the current attack only (allowing a single, unparriable slash to go through).


            Second Implementation: --------- (I like this one better)

            Strikeslash <target> <limb>
            • Is not at all like RSL/DSL.  Completely separate attack.
            • If the target is parrying the targeted limb, their arms are struck, and their Parry is disabled for 3 seconds.
            • If the target is -not- parrying the targeted limb, it does essentially nothing (like a missed BBT).
            • This would allow at least two un-parryable DSLs directly after this attack.



            Thoughts?
            It's not a terrible idea, the second in particular, but it's also not even close to enough time for two DSLs. One tops, which isn't terrible, but it won't do what you want.

          2. RangorRangor Member Posts: 3,222 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Classleads closed, too late for good ideas now @Ernam :(
            image
            Nim
          3. AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            edited April 2014
            For reference, if we assume I have a 2-second DSL and it takes 14 hits to break my opponent, it can take me as long as 40 seconds to prep someone's parried limb by breaking both arms and going for the leg, (Assuming they have sub-optimal priorities that let me prep the leg in one go) or 56 seconds using the gecko bypass, (Assuming it works every time, but really it's 50/50)

            With that in mind, the first option is functionally identical to the proposed RSL change, and would take 30 seconds to prep the parried limb. That's a little more effective than anything we currently have, which would make all of our current methods obsolete. I'd like to avoid that if we can, so this implementation could be cool if the balance on it was something long-ish, like 3.5 or 4 seconds, (3.2 or 3.6 with Nimble) so the total time-to-prep was something like 38-43 seconds. (Same length as our current methods, but without any damage or venom build-up)

            The second method would take me 27 seconds if I just alternated between SSL/DSL. (Assuming 2.5 seconds on SSL) or 19.5 seconds if I get 2 DSLs for every SSL. I think that's a bit too effective. I'd rather go with the first idea, which is basically what Exelethril proposed.
            -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
            Wessux
          4. CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 5,075 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            edited April 2014
            You won't be using a rapier on that rsl, it will be a battleaxe. You'll actually be prepping quite fast.

            Edit: referring to the rsl bypass idea

            AerekWessux
          5. AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Yeah, that's a concern I posted last page, and something I don't really have an answer for.
            -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
            Wessux
          6. EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Aerek said:
            Klendathu said:
            Just because every other class has an ability, doesn't mean every class should have it. Monks, for example, have no ability to strip shield, other than a mind throw or hammer tattoo. Betcha people would be (have been!) up in arms if anyone should suggest a shield-stripping attack for a monk.
            If it were just one class that had it, and that was something special and unique to that class, I would agree with you. But in this case, Monks, Sylvans, Druids, Blademasters, Magi, and Dragons all have abilities that bypass parry with 100% efficiency. Knights are one the only classes left that don't have one of these 100% reliable methods. Don't get me wrong, Knights have a lot of tricks we can use to get around parry, but when an opponent knows all of those tricks, we can locked out of a fight pretty easily.


            Just as a note, airfist is only 100% against guarding. Not sure what the actual rate is on parry, but would guess somewhere around 50%. Doesn't have much affect on your point, though, since blademasters have enough options that parrying isn't much of a concern anyway. 
          7. AeliosAelios Member Posts: 449 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            edited April 2014
            Okay, so... NEW discussion, since disembowel was brought up... : 

            Report #231
            -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Submitted by: Aelios         Status      : Submitted
            Skill       : Chivalry       Ability     : Disembowel
            -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Problem:
            As it stands, anyone can completely negate the torso damage modifier of a disembowel with a simple tumble. Once the prep work for a disembowel is in place, if someone tumbles on a leg break - or at all - before the in room Disembowel is complete, the tumble-forced disembowel will not take into account torso damage modifiers. This is a problem because, with a decent amount of health, you can guarantee not ever dying to a disembowel (broken torso or not) by simply tumbling. Any and all work put in to break the torso is 100% negated at this point, and the three knight classes (Infernal, Runewarden, Paladin) have zero counters for it. Out of those three classes, Runewarden must solely rely on Disembowel as a kill method, as there are zero alternatives, making killing anyone with sizable health or above quite an almost impossible feat.
            -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            Solution #1:
            Tumble / Impale disembowels take into account torso damage, and would work the same as an in-room disembowel.

            Solution #2:
            Add an additional limb's balance cost to tumble if impaled.

            Solution #3:
            Increase the base damage of a Disembowel, allowing a better "chance" to kill your target if they've got high health and tumble.

            -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            "You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."

             -Albert Einstein

            Hanley
          8. KrossKross Member Posts: 779
            Stop using dainty ass rapiers?
          9. AeliosAelios Member Posts: 449 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            Kross said:
            Stop using dainty ass rapiers?

            76/172/249 's.

            :(

            "You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."

             -Albert Einstein

          10. JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            You misunderstand. All rapiers are dainty compared to real swords.
            image
            Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

            Kross
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