Classleads

Cooper

@Kuy - you literally cannot disembowel someone who tumbles right now. That is the Knight finisher, and it does not work on anyone that tumbles as they should.

@Jarrod - Just like when you fight against Jesters and Shamans, there comes a time in their offense where if you haven't killed them they are going to kill you. That's how it should be. Your job is to kill them before their prep is finished. Every other class in the game can get in multiple kill attempts in the time a Knight preps you for a DSB. Occultists get probably 10 chances to build full moment, serpents get about the same, sentinels will be able to prep/hinder a Knight nearly permanently, etc.

There are other theoretical ways for a Knight to kill you - pipe/rift locks being the main one, but those are prevented by having decent curing. Runewardens and Paladins can put out huge damage, but if that damage is going to kill you then you don't have to worry about DSB because they aren't going to bother with it. But that won't work on most people who are high leveled and know what they are doing. Proper shielding and rebounding and hinder puts a stop to that. 

Momentum classes have the advantage that they can lock you MUCH faster than you can prep them. Prep classes have the advantage of where they prep you and if you stick around you die.

Implying/arguing/thinking that if a prep class preps you and you stay for their kill execution you should be able to survive it is just...really, really stupid. How else are they supposed to kill people?

Kuy

Again, I will repeat myself, @Cooper.  I do not disagree that there is a problem with Disembowel.

However, the idea that "I do x, then I do y, then I do z, then I push this button and my opponent is dead" is not only not interesting, but ridiculous.  It takes skill to prep.  It should take just as much skill to learn when and how to execute the kill for which you have prepped.

Iocun

Cooper said:

@Jarrod - Just like when you fight against Jesters and Shamans, there comes a time in their offense where if you haven't killed them they are going to kill you.

If that's how those classes were supposed to work, we'd still have obliterate. In fact, except for certain special cases, all killing moves of jesters/shamans can still be survived.

Your job is to kill them before their prep is finished. Every other class in the game can get in multiple kill attempts in the time a Knight preps you for a DSB. Occultists get probably 10 chances to build full moment, serpents get about the same, sentinels will be able to prep/hinder a Knight nearly permanently, etc.

Multiple kill attempts, all of which can be defended against. I don't mind the slower prepping classes having killing moves that are harder to defend against than the individual attempts of fast momentum classes, but again: we don't want stuff to end like obliterate.

Moving classes in the direction of slow preps and unhinderable finishers is inherently problematic, because that's what causes defensive fighting. If you want to increase the dangerousness of some class, don't just tie it to the finishers, but at least partly to momentum.

Lilian

@Daeir please no, as a bard I hate having deafness stripped on my target when I am not ready to undeafen them to the point where I don't even like using bagatalia anymore. Don't need riposte triggering pesante thanks!.. Maybe have riposte apply the venom if you keep your rapier envenomed. (going back to my hole now.)

Antonius

I agree with what Iocun said. Parrying isn't an interesting mechanic right now. If we give everybody the means to bypass it then we may as well just remove parrying entirely and adjust limb damage down accordingly.

I briefly considered an idea that's similar to what he suggested, but with momentum based increases to limb damage dealt as opposed to an actual damage increase, which I think has fewer problems.

Essentially every so many doubleslashes the amount of limb damage you deal per strike would double. Parrying would reset that bonus, so there's an incentive to actually switch your parry.

The issue there is that for some people they could switch parry to other limbs, but then switch back to the limb they want to protect, by virtue of having fast attacks. Maybe allow people to see when you switch your parry to another bodypart, but not what you're actually parrying.

Static parrying is then the absolute worst option. You can set it on a leg and forget about it, but if they have total freedom to hit all your other limbs then they'll eventually be able to stack the bonus to the point where they can break your limbs in one doubleslash each, at which point there's not much you can do to prevent them from proning and killing you.

I considered both a flat bonus and a per limb bonus, I'm not sure which I prefer. Could also make things like shielding so many times within X seconds, or not attacking at all for a certain amount of time, reset the bonus so there's a downside to super defensive fighting.

Caladbolg

Jarrod said:

You misunderstand. All rapiers are dainty compared to real swords.

And this is why im learning to prep with a warhammer.

Aelios

Aerek said:

RE: Solution #1
Making the tumble-off damage respect torso damage essentially means that you get disemboweled if you do tumble, and you get disemboweled if you don't tumble. I don't think I need to explain why that's bad.

RE: Solution #2
If they start a tumble while impaled, it's too late already, and you'll disembowel them. People tumble off because they start tumbling long before you've impaled them, which means this won't help at all.

RE: Solution #3
This runs the same problem as #1. Either the damage is not comparable to a real disembowel, which means folks still won't die to it, or it is comparable to a disembowel, which means it's essentially impossible to escape a disembowel.

Re: Solution 1

But that's already the case. If someone tumbles, at any point if they become impaled while in-room, they're getting disemboweled. The problem comes from the fact that if you tumble on ANY break from a Knight, they will not be able to pull off a DSB that includes torso damage. Zero chance. It won't happen. 

Either A, you commit to the double break finisher required to execute a DSB, and have the target tumble out, curing both legs, getting a "wrist slap" DSB worth 50% of health. (( http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Cr1BGbbK )) versus (( http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=RCMMMSrw ))

Or B, you ease off to keep your prep of at least one leg, and forsake the DSB chance at all.

Re: Solution 2

Not particularly. If scaled right, it would narrow the gap of tumble possibilities. This works by causing additional time to complete a tumble increase while impaled. (5 seconds without, +1 second if impaled during tumble)

Re: Solution 3

What I've come across more often than not is that many individuals (Dragons, Monks, Apostates, etc) with any decent amount of health completely survives any Disembowel bar a Level 2 torso break. 

Jarrod

@Caladbolg don't lie, you're doing that so you can yell, "YOU WANT ME TO PUT THE HAMMER DOWN?" right before you start shatter.

Agrias

@Caladbolg‌ always put the hammer down. With eleven long-haired friends of Jesus in a chartreuse microbus.

Valdus

You have a sword driven into your belly. Tumbling away would literally cause the blade to be wrenched from you, opening the wound and spilling your jiggly innards all over the place.

I see no reason why the Disembowel from a tumble shouldn't respect the torso damage modifier.

Ernam

Valdus said:

You have a sword driven into your belly. Tumbling away would literally cause the blade to be wrenched from you, opening the wound and spilling your jiggly innards all over the place.

I see no reason why the Disembowel from a tumble shouldn't respect the torso damage modifier.

You're asking to make DSB different from every other ability in the game (and simultaneously ridding people of literally the only way to survive it) based on what the ability looks like in-character?

Well, in response, I'd like to suggest that tattoo balance for tattoos on your legs should be longer, since it takes longer to touch your legs.  Also, Axekick should be 8 times faster, since it's really fast and easy to actually perform an axekick.

Jacen

Without saying whether it should or should not respect torso damage, I can say that your reason is invalid for the argument. Combat shouldn't be designed to be realistic, it should be designed to be balanced with other combat abilities. You've got to have an escape possibility or else you have no reason to stay and fight a knight after X amount of time. Likewise, fighting as a knight would simply be a matter of surviving until X time has passed, upon which you've won the fight.

Mithridates

Hey @Jacen instead of posting on the forums come defend Hashan :P

Caladbolg

Jacen said:

Without saying whether it should or should not respect torso damage, I can say that your reason is invalid for the argument. Combat shouldn't be designed to be realistic, it should be designed to be balanced with other combat abilities. You've got to have an escape possibility or else you have no reason to stay and fight a knight after X amount of time. Likewise, fighting as a knight would simply be a matter of surviving until X time has passed, upon which you've won the fight.

That's what the willpower drain stragety is for.

Jacen

Mithridates said:

Hey @Jacen instead of posting on the forums come defend Hashan :P

We'll just let you have your little tea party at the ass end of Hashan.

Aerek

Valdus said:

You have a sword driven into your belly. Tumbling away would literally cause the blade to be wrenched from you, opening the wound and spilling your jiggly innards all over the place.

I see no reason why the Disembowel from a tumble shouldn't respect the torso damage modifier.

Because death would become inescapable for 90% of the playerbase? Sure, it's frustrating when someone consistently tumbles off an impale, but tumbling is the only way to escape a disembowel. If tumbling off dealt the same damage as actually getting disemboweled, then getting disemboweled would be effectively unavoidable, and the only way to survive a Runewarden or Paladin becomes "be a Dragon and just tank it".

I don't think you really want to do that.

Strata

I don't see what the big deal with runie is anyway. Isn't it just lunge lunge thurisaz thurisaz thurisaz dsl curare/pref dsl curare/pref dsl curare/pref on a loop?

Ernam

Strata said:

I don't see what the big deal with runie is anyway. Isn't it just lunge lunge thurisaz thurisaz thurisaz dsl curare/pref dsl curare/pref dsl curare/pref on a loop?

Engage and Hugalaz, n00b.  (but yes, that's basically it)

(The whole "I'm going to run to the next room for no reason at all, but I'm tooootally not propping" strategy is always a goto as well.)

Antonius

Strata said:

I don't see what the big deal with runie is anyway. Isn't it just lunge lunge thurisaz thurisaz thurisaz dsl curare/pref dsl curare/pref dsl curare/pref on a loop?

That doesn't always work: https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/c4a97f29

Valdus

Aerek said:

Valdus said:

You have a sword driven into your belly. Tumbling away would literally cause the blade to be wrenched from you, opening the wound and spilling your jiggly innards all over the place.

I see no reason why the Disembowel from a tumble shouldn't respect the torso damage modifier.

Because death would become inescapable for 90% of the playerbase? Sure, it's frustrating when someone consistently tumbles off an impale, but tumbling is the only way to escape a disembowel. If tumbling off dealt the same damage as actually getting disemboweled, then getting disemboweled would be effectively unavoidable, and the only way to survive a Runewarden or Paladin becomes "be a Dragon and just tank it".

I don't think you really want to do that.

You have convinced me. I agree 'just tank it' isn't an acceptable strategy.

The question then becomes what to do about it?

Ernam

Antonius said:

Strata said:

I don't see what the big deal with runie is anyway. Isn't it just lunge lunge thurisaz thurisaz thurisaz dsl curare/pref dsl curare/pref dsl curare/pref on a loop?

That doesn't always work: https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/c4a97f29

Awesome.  I don't know what's more sad... that he thinks this might work to kill you, or that it actually does work on other people.

Wessux

Dsb is fine as is. Just need a faster/more reliable way to prep.

And @Strata if that is killing you, you're not fighting defensively enough. And for god sakes you're a serpent, defensive fighting is what you're class is good at.

Jarrod

Running? Yes.

Fighting defensively? No.

Strata

Yeah I was just joking earlier with that but since you all took it so seriously... Burst affliction class fighting defensively? No... that... doesn't.... work. I'm usually balls to the wall until I'm either dead or really really really really really really really close to dead before I try to run away.

Wessux

Running is a way of fighting defensive, in my book at least. Also serpent is burst affliction not momentum. Most serpent locks I've seen take about 6-12 seconds to execute. That's after sealing all of your hypnosis afflictions, which could take forever. But you don't have to sit in the room the whole time for that.

Wessux

Daeir said:

That is 6-12 spartds of escalating momentum, which is extremely easily interrupted at certain key points. Break that momentum, and they have to start over.

Has nothing to do with fighting defensively on your part.

But for the sake of arguing, if you can't stay in the room for that long then you are doing something wrong.

Aegoth

I ranted about this in Rants, however on a more professional note: I would really like to ask @Makarios and @Tecton to reconsider their stance on classlead # 269. 

Sandling as it is right now can only be used in extremely limited situations, those being: forest, grassland, jungle. It cannot be used anywhere else, and so anyone with this knowledge can take advantage of that. As well, if the magi/sylvan has ONE arm shriveled, then the spell cannot be cast. This makes it easy to stop if you prep your opponent correctly. In the end, approving classlead #269 takes away a very important situational advantage to magi, who already have a much higher skill requirement than most classes (in that magi takes an immense amount of creativity and luck to even fight on par with a lot of top tier).

I urge the classlead administration to take back their approval of this classlead and really ask themselves: Are we just catering to someone who is lacking situational awareness and tactical know-how, or is there REALLY a problem with this skill?

Alrena

Well, it's a bit more than those areas. It's mostly impossible to use on Road, Urban, Any type of underground. Which is still a big percentage of high-frequency combat. (And every duelling ground).

The best part is that the person who made that classlead, actually simply refused to fight me wherever I could sandling, thus solving the problem.

Edit: I'm more amazed that it's totally fine for Gravehands to stick around through DRAGONFORMING. Just wait for elder dragon necro's to put them up and dform. We better be keeping soul rezz if this is how it's gonna be. 

Mithridates

We all know Leviticus is a wuss. Dunno why people listened to him. It's one of the few ways that a magi can actually survive getting teamed.

Alrena

Mithridates said:

We all know Leviticus is a wuss. Dunno why people listened to him. It's one of the few ways that a magi can actually survive getting teamed.

Only if they forget to bring a shovel... it's not like we vanish into thin air, like -some- classes!