Classleads

Antonius

I'm not a fan of abilities that can only be used in specific environments, especially when that's used as the justification for making them powerful. Saying "Just don't fight in it" isn't a valid response, because a lot of the time that just means you don't fight at all.

Makarios

Re: sandling

Being able to do something to remove you from combat while prone that requires the other person to burn a nontrivial amount of balance to counter that also does not prevent you from healing is never going to be something we can reallistically balance against prep classes. This is why prone angel aura was removed, why flight abilities do not work prone, prone burrow was removed, etc.

Creative solutions to problems are definitely a good thing, but when the solution is "fight in these environment types or don't fight" there is likely an issue. (This is why old thornspray was also changed.)

That said, it likely won't just be a nerf. There'll probably be some relaxing of the general restrictions put on the ability.

Rangor

Maul accuracy rejected I bet they haven't seen how horrid it is.

Trey

Makarios said:

Re: sandling

Being able to do something to remove you from combat while prone that requires the other person to burn a nontrivial amount of balance to counter that also does not prevent you from healing is never going to be something we can reallistically balance against prep classes. This is why prone angel aura was removed, why flight abilities do not work prone, prone burrow was removed, etc.

Creative solutions to problems are definitely a good thing, but when the solution is "fight in these environment types or don't fight" there is likely an issue. (This is why old thornspray was also changed.)

That said, it likely won't just be a nerf. There'll probably be some relaxing of the general restrictions put on the ability.

Really, as long as it still respects (road) in the same way that burrow does, giving it more situations to use it in while removing prone might be an even trade. 

Dunn

2012 nvr 4get

Aegoth

@Makarios, thank you for the response! It eases my worries

Santar

It'd probably be safe to add in movement to sandling, since you can A. Farsee people that are burrowed now, and B. Follow them and dig them up. Not fast movement, obviously, but one room every 2 seconds on a standard balance would be pretty good balance for sandling.

Jacen

Santar said:

It'd probably be safe to add in movement to sandling, since you can A. Farsee people that are burrowed now, and B. Follow them and dig them up. Not fast movement, obviously, but one room every 2 seconds on a standard balance would be pretty good balance for sandling.

Maybe I messed something up, but I actually tested burrow stuff with Twil just a second ago, and I could only farsee his area, not his location, while we were in the same area.

Makarios

Hrm, that's likely an issue with farsee. We'll check it out when making any changes to sandling.

Dunn

It makes sense given that burrow is a 'separate area'. Works for the standard sense abilities, which show the room, but not the farsee ability that shows the area if they are out of your area.

Santar

Yeah, now that I think of it, you're right that farsee will only show their area, since burrowed counts as a different area even if you're in the area they're burrowed.

I use scry/dragonsense though, so doesn't affect me. Change farsee to detect exact room of people that are burrowed in your area for people who don't have scry bowls and it'll be good.

Jacen

So then... should mindsense pick them up? I wasn't detecting him at all while he was burrowed. 

Santar

I don't see why not. Scry and dragonsense do it fine afaik. I know at least one of them worked for me.

Alrena

Santar said:

It'd probably be safe to add in movement to sandling, since you can A. Farsee people that are burrowed now, and B. Follow them and dig them up. Not fast movement, obviously, but one room every 2 seconds on a standard balance would be pretty good balance for sandling.

Already able to move with sandling by using BURROW <direction>.

You glance at the ground and utter a sharp syllable. Immediately, the ground begins to churn, and a pair of hands reaches up to pull you beneath the earth.

You are surrounded by utter darkness, and can see nothing. The smell of minerals and dirt fills your nostrils.

You see some loose soil to the north and up.

(p) 5199h, 5592m, 22326e, 26883w xdbk 3.7%  N|U 19:47:28.552(-250m, 4.3%) 

You have recovered equilibrium. (2.855s)

(p) 5199h, 5592m, 22330e, 26895w exdbk 3.7%  N|U 19:47:31.406burrow n

You are surrounded by utter darkness, and can see nothing. The smell of minerals and dirt fills your nostrils.

You see some loose soil to the northeast, east, and south.

(p) 5199h, 5592m, 22280e, 26895w edbk 3.7%  E|NE|S 19:47:32.304

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (2.225s)

(p) 5199h, 5592m, 22300e, 26907w exdbk 3.7%  E|NE|S 19:47:34.529burrow s

You are surrounded by utter darkness, and can see nothing. The smell of minerals and dirt fills your nostrils.

You see some loose soil to the north and up.

(p) 5199h, 5667m, 22250e, 26907w edbk 3.7%  N|U 19:47:35.259(+75m, 1.3%) 

I'd also like to point out that Sandling is 100% preventable by every single prep class out there, and a whole lot easier than Kai Cripple too!

Santar

That's a relatively recent buff to that ability, then. Used to be that you couldn't move during it. I vaguely recall it getting buffed now. 

I think it's a fine ability in that case then.

Jovolo

Yeah a change to sandling seems weird to me. It's almost useless in groups if one of the persons is smart enough to just DIG, while also being preventable in both 1v1 and group combat to a reasonable degree (arm cripples/breaks). I'm really really hating this trend into making all class offenses really similar across the board, in both execution and defense against. It's just boring.

Ernam

Alrena said:

I'd also like to point out that Sandling is 100% preventable by every single prep class out there, and a whole lot easier than Kai Cripple too!

Assuming you're talking about a double arm break, then sandling is only actually (effectively) preventable by monks and blademasters, and not for very long.

Hasar

Break arm/leg break arm/leg.

?

And even just one arm stops it, fairly certain.

Ernam

Hasar said:

Break arm/leg break arm/leg.

?

And even just one arm stops it, fairly certain.

That's why I said "effectively".  Because in the hopes of preventing sandling, you deviate from almost all viable kill setups.

Santar

I thought the only viable kill setup vs. a mage was to wait until retardation and then use cripple?

Alrena

Ernam said:

Hasar said:

Break arm/leg break arm/leg.

?

And even just one arm stops it, fairly certain.

That's why I said "effectively".  Because in the hopes of preventing sandling, you deviate from almost all viable kill setups.

You're talking about Monk here, as other classes can simply add in epteth (I do that as Sylvan against other Sylvans/Magi and Monks myself already) on breaks. As for Monk... I'm sure there are times monks also prep arms, rather quickly, to get ahead in terms of salve balance. 

Santar said:

I thought the only viable kill setup vs. a mage was to wait until retardation and then use cripple?

Does not work on Siren magi, as they can prone seduce, which is very strong in retardation in all honesty. Also perhaps the only time that racial ability comes in handy. 

Rom

Rangor said:

Maul accuracy rejected I bet they haven't seen how horrid it is.

Both pound classleads went through, we pound now.

Maul accuracy would have been huge for low-might metamorphs though, hurt my heart watching Benson fight before he could use a handaxe. Not sure how to strike a proper balance between what newbies need and what isn't considered too strong for the experienced.

Valdus

Regarding Thornrend and Sylvan damage.

Decision:
No promises on any solutions, but we'll investigate the numbers on thornrend and adjust accordingly
if needed.


Now we can all stop complaining about Sylvan damage.

Caladbolg

Alrena said:

Ernam said:

Hasar said:

Break arm/leg break arm/leg.

?

And even just one arm stops it, fairly certain.

That's why I said "effectively".  Because in the hopes of preventing sandling, you deviate from almost all viable kill setups.

You're talking about Monk here, as other classes can simply add in epteth (I do that as Sylvan against other Sylvans/Magi and Monks myself already) on breaks. As for Monk... I'm sure there are times monks also prep arms, rather quickly, to get ahead in terms of salve balance. 

Santar said:

I thought the only viable kill setup vs. a mage was to wait until retardation and then use cripple?

Does not work on Siren magi, as they can prone seduce, which is very strong in retardation in all honesty. Also perhaps the only time that racial ability comes in handy. 

Is Seduce Peace, Pacifism or a different affliction?

Sena

Lover's effect (can't harm the siren who seduced you, no problem attacking anyone else, cured by bellwort/focus).

Aerek

With zero sarcasm/passive aggression, can someone explain this to me? A few of us were just talking about how powerful Infernal's Vivisect is at present in the combat forum, so this one caught me by surprise.

Report #52
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by: Carmain        Status      : Approved                 Priority : 3
Skill       :                Ability     : Necrolysation
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem:
In the current climate, due to evolving systems and combat logic amongst people becoming more
efficient, infernals are lacking a way of capitalising on their setups. They lack a shieldbreaker to
prevent people avoiding disembowel, and restoring and not applying restoration while off equilibrium
has been shown to be a successful method of avoiding vivisect, especially since restore was reduced
to only partially take into account partially damaged/mangled limbs, so that cleave was taken out of
the equation. If logs are required to prove this, they can be provided.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solution #1:
Necrolysation could be an ability to add a 50% fail rate to restore. So if someone uses restore
while necrolysed, there is a 50% chance for each individual limb to be cured. For each limb not
cured, the equilibrium cost will be reduced as if that limb was not broken. This will lessen
reliance on a trigger to restore on limb breaks. To make it effective, the ability should be delayed.
 Once activated, the infernal will lose equilibrium and be unable to do anything for 2 seconds, at
the end of the 2 seconds, he regains equilibrium and it will inflict the target, as well as give a
message. The cure should either be a ten second wear off, or applying to torso so that the ability
retains it's usefulness. It would cost a hefty amount of essence, around 10%
Solution #2:
increase the equilibrium cost of restore to it's previous state.
Solution #3:
If the head is damaged, restore has a chance to fail entirely.  This will add an extra defensive
dimension when fighting infernals, and people will have to be more wary of how they are defending.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Decision:
Approved for investigation into further restore eq modifiers.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not applying restoration salves while off-EQ is the only way to avoid Vivisect. Are we trying to make Vivisect actually unstoppable? I'm not trying to be snarky, I would legitimately like to understand the underlying logic behind the classlead and the approval.

Mithridates

Man if they make restore cost a long eq time I'll be unstoppable in retardation against people that actually use it.

Exelethril

Why was that even approved? Infernals already get a guaranteed disembowel and forced restore 

#160%

Dunn

Investigation does not imply implementation.

Exelethril

Yeah, that was the gist of my point. Not sure why it was approved for investigation in the first place.