Class Tweaking

Mizik

Kenway said:

 I think that tactically positioning yourself on the battlefield makes combat a lot more interesting. 

You -ing serious? No, an -even playing field- makes for interesting combat. Otherwise you have one person in room A, we'll call this 'In his grove', and in another room person B, which we'll call 'Outside of the forest'. Exactly 0 combat takes place.

I hate you.

Kenway

I meant more the fact that as a Runelorist you want to avoid water and the enemy wants to get you onto water.

Wasn't referring to heavily fortified room vs not heavily fortified room.

SCREW. GROVE SUMMON.

Thatisall.

Valden

As a Runewarden I've gotten to the point where if they insist on sitting in water rooms for a spar in the arena then I'll just sit over here with a prepped room shooting you until you move, or die, or I run out of arrows and heartstop.

Kenway

@Valden that's about as exciting as Mizik's scenario.

Kaie

Iocun said:

I still use several cure illusions successfully, but yes, many of them have become much less useful recently, which is a bit of a pity, seeing how hard and specific they were to pull off to begin with and how elegant their successful use really was.

Using a successful cure illusion requires an excellent grasp on cure/curing system mechanics, knowing when exactly your opponent has herb balance, what his priorities are, whether he uses alchemical cures or forestal ones for a particular affliction, and tailoring your illusioning to all these variables with perfect timing. If you got these things really down and then things are changed in such a way to make those illusions still much worse than just straight old illusioning high priority afflictions, that's always a bit of a downer.

I agree with Iocun. Illusions are still viable and yes, many can still be done but, just because you can do something doesn't make it useful in practice. It's difficult to time and pull off a lot of illusions that I use without life vision procing and destroying my setup already. So, I can imagine for serpents who's pk is usually very reliant on them it's even more frustrating. I actually rarely use illusions on clases with lifevision simply because it's a guessing game and the odds are life vision caught it anyway. It needs toned down just a bit with how curing systems work now.

Also, a third person message at least wouldn't hurt since you'd know your illusion failed and you don't continue beating a dead horse.

Kaie

I have a lot of Ideas on this topic.
Jester Tweaks

Mickey: I think it might mix things up a bit if mickey actually consumed herb balance when eaten making it so the opponent can't insta-eat the intended herb. Since Jester's don't have an impatience ability it shouldn't result in any crazy locks.

Jack-in-the-box I wouldn't be upset if they shortened the amount of time it takes for Jack in the box to go off. It's like 10 seconds for it to hit currently but, the whole class is pretty much hindering based so 10 seconds is more than enough to get away from it. I'd say maybe bring it down to like 8 seconds. Close to the same as death tarot. It's not like it'd make a huge difference, if 10 seconds is too long we're gonna use death anyway. It's just cooler to watch the box.

Additional skill: Crossbows actually fit in well with the jester theme so, it'd be cool to see Jester gain crossbows as class skill. It'd open the door to new ideas and skills aswell. Plus those rarely see action since most classes that can use them jump straight into darkbows. Then you can impliment new skills to accompany the crossbow such as nailing the opponent's foot to the floor with the crossbow for additional hindering or  preventing tumble until you've writhed out of it. lol
seriously though, they'd be fun.

Xith

Jitb is 12 and is the most unstoppable timed kill in the game (possibly excluding cleave). What could use fixing is still the peace problem. A handful of classes can give peace which will stop jitb at any stage of the winding. I had a priest pacify me after 11 seconds of the winding when my bombs and everything kept them stuck in a killroom that long. And then they just negate what takes 12 seconds to wait for. That's still a problem. One of the longest timed kills and it shouldn't be stopped by last-second peace.

Crossbows: if it's not for damage it can't be a crossbow. I think slingshotting bombs is pranky and hindery, wish for slingshot - 500 gold. 5 balance to launch a bomb line-of-sight.

Garao

Mickey consuming full herb balance is too strong, but it could be (herb balance - 1second, speed timer + 2seconds) though, and it'll increase its usefulness tenfold.

Jitb is 12 seconds and death is 8, not 10 and 6. They're both fine, though, and there's some reasons off the top of my head why jitb might be 12 seconds regarding salve balances and tumble with puppetry mangle. Like... I don't really think those timers need to be changed. Also if peace if getting you then it's an unprepped jitb, totally reasonable to stop it considering it's like the only thing.

Aktillum

Mickey is intended as a hunger attack. People can starve surprisingly fast from smoke bomb + mickeys. Jester is really meant to be a kill asap class. The 1v1 is only as strong as how cheap you're willing to be. Jester is definitely full of underhanded tactics that people hate and will never want to fight you again. Primarily a "jumper" class, imo. 1v1 full puppet strategies are definitely viable but not ideal.

Xith

Aktillum said:

Mickey is intended as a hunger attack. People can starve surprisingly fast from smoke bomb + mickeys. Jester is really meant to be a kill asap class. The 1v1 is only as strong as how cheap you're willing to be. Jester is definitely full of underhanded tactics that people hate and will never want to fight you again. Primarily a "jumper" class, imo. 1v1 full puppet strategies are definitely viable but not ideal.

Or as expensive as you're willing to be, rather. Each bomb and mickey are 20 gold each.

I guess they're cheaper than mutton.

Don't know how viable hunger attacks still are, but the nausea has to proc for it to do that damage, and if they aren't in aeon that's going to get cured quickly anyway. I'd rather mickey consumed herb balance. Otherwise it has no use in sticking the aeon, let alone affecting them under it.

Mickey balance is 1.8 with nimble. Sluggish is 1.2. So slipping it during aeon has almost no merit.

Seftin

Xith said:

Aktillum said:

Mickey is intended as a hunger attack. People can starve surprisingly fast from smoke bomb + mickeys. Jester is really meant to be a kill asap class. The 1v1 is only as strong as how cheap you're willing to be. Jester is definitely full of underhanded tactics that people hate and will never want to fight you again. Primarily a "jumper" class, imo. 1v1 full puppet strategies are definitely viable but not ideal.

So slip it before and just repeat till pass out... Or as expensive as you're willing to be, rather. Each bomb and mickey are 20 gold each.

I guess they're cheaper than mutton.

Don't know how viable hunger attacks still are, but the nausea has to proc for it to do that damage, and if they aren't in aeon that's going to get cured quickly anyway. I'd rather mickey consumed herb balance. Otherwise it has no use in sticking the aeon, let alone affecting them under it.

Mickey balance is 1.8 with nimble. Sluggish is 1.2. So slipping it during aeon has almost no merit.

Didn't add my comment for some reason, slip mickey, aeon kalmia till hunger rinse and repeat till pass out with smokebomb maybe

Kaie

Mickey isn't that threatening really. Hunger attacks are a one time thing. You might get some one once with it assuming they don't run to the nearest store when they get notified they are starving. After that they will either not fight you or carry food with them. As far as aeon and starving goes, smokebombs do a really good job at starving people out alone. Coupled sure, they would be fast but, you're gonna eat as soon as you puke. It's one of those things that sounds good on paper but in practice is tedious. If it consumed herb balance it would open up new strategies mostly it would shine in aeon (if you manage to stick it) where you'd be slowed down on eating out of asthma. This all assuming you reach the point where you're in aeon WITH asthma.  So, it'd act more as a hindering agent than a tool for spaming you into locks. Not sure about doubling herb balance though. That would be pretty strong for holding some one down with an affliction.

I try not to think about how certain skills interact with certain arties. Arties are a kind of expensive investment intended to give the owner an edge in combat so, it's only reasonable to expect an edge. That being said, not everyone owns arties, especially not  true newbies who want to break into it so I feel a primary focus should be on how the class can stand up on it's own with just it's 3 class skills before looking at how it fairs combined with artifacts and additional skillsets.

Not to say I think there should be crazy artifacts that secure massive damage or near instakills with no prep. Just saying that I don't like how sometimes it feels like arties weigh in more than the actual skillsets.

Kaie

Another tweak I'd like to see with Jester is, changing puppet strip to be able to target specific defenses such as mass and levitation. Would make it easier to do things with balloon handoff and butterfly bombs which currently isn't even an option except on newbies because you have to upkeep blackout and strip through like 13 defs to some of which are constantly being redeffed even in blackout making it next to impossible to perform and not worth the effort.

Xith

Yeah, few scenarios for strip:

Currently: 1/15 fashions. Strips 1 random. Not hidden out of room. 2s balance?

I recommend:

a) 2/20 fashions = targettable strip

b) 1/15 fashions = strip 2 random defs

c) 2/20 fashions = strip 3 random defs

Just isn't worth the fashions to use right now with 1 random def per 1 fashion.

Arditi

3 random defenses?

The only thing approaching that level of defense removal is Behead.

Xith

Arditi said:

3 random defenses?

The only thing approaching that level of defense removal is Behead.

Yeah, if you want you can read my post again. Maybe let it sink in. That's 2 fashions for 3 defs instead of 1 for 1. a.k.a recommending 1.5 per fashion. The skill is underpowered, so those were the recommended fixes.

Garao

If that were to happen we'd have to bring mind strip in line with it

Mishgul

And demon and angel strip but not basilisk negate because druids are OP

Vaehl

Yeah, from what I've seen, Druids are the best strippers.

Xith

Garao said:

If that were to happen we'd have to bring mind strip in line with it

No, the issue with the unbalance is the value of a fashion. Puppet strip is random and therefore useless when you could save those fashions for:

- command

- imbibe

- sleep

- paralyse

- reckless

or just getting enough for your actual useful skills. Mind/demon strip don't have the same costs. You can use them on a whim from the start of a battle.

But the fashion cost of a strip is what we're looking at here. That's where a puppetry ability's value is determined. It's why mangle was increased from 4 to 6 fashions. Puppet slow removing speed reduced from 10 to 1 fashions, etc.

If we have to blackout (tree(1) + blackout(4)) just to sift through random defenses hoping we hit levitation, mass, cloak, or something we need to remove. That's actually 6+ fashions to accomplish one goal. if you got 1.5 or 2 strips per fashion, it could even be useable outside blackout. Small buff, but probably necessary.

Mishgul

haha don't have a cost. 

Jacen

I thought the whole point of Jester was to keep your opponent in the same room. Why are you trying to remove defenses that hinder your opponent's movement?

Xith

Jacen said:

I thought the whole point of Jester was to keep your opponent in the same room. Why are you trying to remove defenses that hinder your opponent's movement?

Said no jester ever.

But seriously, strip levitation + mass for balloonhandoff/butterflybomb. No longer a valid tactic but even so.

Stripping cloak is an obvious one. Saves you the puppet summon.

I don't know which of the defenses I mentioned "hinders my opponent's movement". But you'd be wrong either way. Half of Jester is leaving the room.

Kaie

What? What does stripping cloak have to do with puppet summon? Cloak negates neither Empress or Summon.  I honestly want it for Balloon handoff+butterfly. It's just too funny if some one damages out to being slammed into the ground like a basket ball. It's not half bad damage for the price and not op since only newbies will be obliterated by it, requiring setup for it to even be used like that. Like, reckless or being trapped in aeon with other afflicitons (at which point worse things can happen to you).  The thing is you can open doors to damage kills via jester. Serpent has a better chance of damage killing than Jester currently which seems to be an option for all classes.. and serpent is THE affliction class.

The issue isn't really the cost of strip either. Strip only requires 15 fashions.. and uses 1. Hrm, maybe that's a bit high but, supposing you lower the fashion cost.. the real issue with it as a viable means to strip those 2 defenses surfaces again. It's that you have to sift through like 30 defenses, some of which constantly get put back up because they are noticeable in prompt. that means you can easily burn through 40 fashions for an albeit funny, but still heavily unreliable kill attempt. I tested this out thoroughly before when I had a laugh at the idea of murdering some one with it. The end result is.. I ran out of fashions like 4 times to even strip.. from a loaded doll. Got levitation and mass down maybe twice in my several attempts and shaved the person down to like 1500 health because of reckless. This was a person just letting me try it by standing there. Now imagine if they were trying to prevent it. It's impossible currently which makes balloonhandoff pretty dumb.

Eld

Kaie said:

What? What does stripping cloak have to do with puppet summon? Cloak negates neither Empress or Summon.

He said it saves you the puppet summon, i.e. allows you to touch brazier instead of using the fashions for Summon.

Caladbolg

Kaie said:

Another tweak I'd like to see with Jester is, changing puppet strip to be able to target specific defenses such as mass and levitation. Would make it easier to do things with balloon handoff and butterfly bombs which currently isn't even an option except on newbies because you have to upkeep blackout and strip through like 13 defs to some of which are constantly being redeffed even in blackout making it next to impossible to perform and not worth the effort.

I think this is the reason Puppet slow was changed to only consume 1 fashion if it stripped speed instead, While being able to strip certin defenses is far to over powered. Seemingly having the ability to strip some defenses for an increase cost in fashions seems viable. Especially since getting a puppet of someone in a raid situation doesn't seem plausible. But being able to do Puppet strip Levitation or puppet strip mass doesn't seem like such a big deal. Ideally

Allow strip to remove :Venom, Sileris, Levitation, Speed, Mass ext ext. Would seemingly be a fine idea if Jester could take advantage of it since I know I run around with 30-40 defenses most of the time. and if it actually helped Jester combat there shouldn't be a 1/30 chance to hit a defense that they can instantly put back up.

Kaie said:

What? What does stripping cloak have to do with puppet summon? Cloak negates neither Empress or Summon.  I honestly want it for Balloon handoff+butterfly. It's just too funny if some one damages out to being slammed into the ground like a basket ball. It's not half bad damage for the price and not op since only newbies will be obliterated by it, requiring setup for it to even be used like that. Like, reckless or being trapped in aeon with other afflicitons (at which point worse things can happen to you).  The thing is you can open doors to damage kills via jester. Serpent has a better chance of damage killing than Jester currently which seems to be an option for all classes.. and serpent is THE affliction class.

The issue isn't really the cost of strip either. Strip only requires 15 fashions.. and uses 1. Hrm, maybe that's a bit high but, supposing you lower the fashion cost.. the real issue with it as a viable means to strip those 2 defenses surfaces again. It's that you have to sift through like 30 defenses, some of which constantly get put back up because they are noticeable in prompt. that means you can easily burn through 40 fashions for an albeit funny, but still heavily unreliable kill attempt. I tested this out thoroughly before when I had a laugh at the idea of murdering some one with it. The end result is.. I ran out of fashions like 4 times to even strip.. from a loaded doll. Got levitation and mass down maybe twice in my several attempts and shaved the person down to like 1500 health because of reckless. This was a person just letting me try it by standing there. Now imagine if they were trying to prevent it. It's impossible currently which makes balloonhandoff pretty dumb.

To be fair though you shouldn't be looking for idea's that work on newbies. You should be trying to come up with something to better the class in general. Adding in other methods to kill with though would make combat more enjoyable for everyone.. because let's be honest who wants to fight the guy who's not fighting back and just fashioning?

Mishgul

I like how this thread turned into noobs trying to buff one of the griefiest classes in the game

Garao

Yup

Caladbolg

Mishgul said:

I like how this thread turned into noobs trying to buff one of the griefiest classes in the game

Says the guy who illusioned Voyria 400 times GRIEF!!

Garao

'pp'