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Class Tweaking

GaraoGarao Member Posts: 460 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
edited February 2013 in The Matsuhama Arena
Hello. I'm making this thread solely for the purpose of proposing and discussing ideas about balancing and/or tweaking classes in certain ways to allow proper discussion and thought to go into creating classleads as opposed to creating a whole bunch of threads individually. To keep this organised, all I ask is that you head your comments like so:

<Class here> tweaks: 

<Comment>. 

Thanks!

Post edited by Garao on
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Comments

  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, NorwayMember Posts: 5,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    <Apostate> tweaks:

    <Hunt not stopped by shield>.

    Thanks!

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    Cahin
  • GaraoGarao Member Posts: 460 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited February 2013
    I will apparently not start. 

    Blademaster tweaks: 
    • Make a person afflicted with voidfist unable to be impaled for its duration. Interesting for both allies and balancing voidfist, neck, impale 'lameness'. 
    • Remove bleeding from impale while impaleslashed.
    • Lower the 'dry' bladetwist bleeding damage to 200 and keep broken torso at 350. (not strong on this idea)
    Occultist tweaks: 
    • Change transcendent Domination ability or the way Pit of Golgotha works. For example: Give pit a windup cost of four seconds before it activates, and if the occultist summoning the pit dies or leaves the room before it completes, the pit is cancelled. A maximum of three people in the room can be pitted at one time. Make a successful summon render anymore pits impossible to be called in the room for 120 seconds after the initial pit. 
    Bard tweaks: 
    • Change the function of songbird to that of a seek, deliver and retrieve class ent. 
    • Make pesante strip deafness and stun for .3 seconds
    • Change voicecraft balance to 2.5 seconds (after weaponry has been fixed to make rapier high-end not gross.)
    Serpent tweaks: 
    • Change bite balance to be quicker than herb balance, 1.3 - 1.4 seconds. 
    • Not a serpent ability, but show a third person message for when lifevision procs on an illusion and drastically lower the chance for a successful lifevision proc.
    • Make shrugging on/off forceable if it is not already, or just remove it entirely. 
    Sylvan tweaks: 
    • Remove the 'bug' in heartseed where it is cured if the victim stays away from the heartseeder for x amount of time. 
    Monk tweaks: 
    • This is an highly idealistic idea, but remove the extra damage from artefact knuckles and keep the limb damage. 

    I already got a little bored and there'll be more later probably, but I'm interested to hear ideas :)


    RangorAkia
  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, NorwayMember Posts: 5,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You forgot to say "Thanks!" 

    I think it is important if we stick to tradition and uphold the sanctity of this thread

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    RajanAveri
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Illusions:
    Because illusions lose more and more potency as systems get better, lifevision should probably get a nerf.

    Chivalry tweaks:
    Delete Cleaving.
    Falcons are too awesome.

    Apostasy tweaks:
    Give daeggers 66% chance to break a shield.
    Add a Tapdance ability for Baalzadeens. Would be funny.

    Jester tweaks:
    Change jitb to finish if peace has been afflicted after it's started.
    Suicide mice.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    Wessux
  • GaraoGarao Member Posts: 460 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    RHK stripping mounted is a good idea, WWK's accuracy is pretty awful and parry head makes it too easily disabled so RHK would be a nice workaround. +1

  • VadimusesVadimuses Member Posts: 1,133 @ - Epic Achaean
    Illusions aren't losing potency, if you think that way then you're doing it wrong. There are huge untapped areas of illusions people still aren't using.

    Pretty useless to say that in a thread of 'I want buffs for myself!' but just throwing it out there for any mislead souls.
    ZeonAradorWessux
  • GaraoGarao Member Posts: 460 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Illusions are losing potency. Compare the effectiveness of illusions two years ago up against how their effectiveness now. but to say they aren't still potent is wrong, I agree there. Lifevision still needs tweaking nonetheless.

  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well 'cure' illusions are largely useless now, yeah. I didn't take obfuscation into account though.
    Mask - 750 credits
    Talisman - 800 credits. And since the talisman works on those who have it as a class skill I guess it's technically the more powerful artifact. Might be good as is.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,691 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2013
    I still use several cure illusions successfully, but yes, many of them have become much less useful recently, which is a bit of a pity, seeing how hard and specific they were to pull off to begin with and how elegant their successful use really was.

    Using a successful cure illusion requires an excellent grasp on cure/curing system mechanics, knowing when exactly your opponent has herb balance, what his priorities are, whether he uses alchemical cures or forestal ones for a particular affliction, and tailoring your illusioning to all these variables with perfect timing. If you got these things really down and then things are changed in such a way to make those illusions still much worse than just straight old illusioning high priority afflictions, that's always a bit of a downer.
  • CahinCahin Member Posts: 1,213 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There are still many illusions that are mechanically hard to anti-illusion to the point of either deciding to mark it as an illusion and ignore it entirely or cure it normally if it does occur.

    Man, if that serpent bite speed change goes through I'll have to start buying sileris again.

    XithTael
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,691 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cahin said:
    There are still many illusions that are mechanically hard to anti-illusion to the point of either deciding to mark it as an illusion and ignore it entirely or cure it normally if it does occur.
    Most of them, actually, but that's not really important. It's not difficult to have a working illusion, but to have a working illusion that significantly helps you with your goal, assuming they have good priorities and cure well otherwise. There are many illusions that will go through, but won't provide you with a significant benefit if they do. And if they cure cleverly, there are also several potentially powerful illusions they can ignore at the cost of also ignoring some real things, but those real things being ignored doesn't actually harm them much. This does leave a relatively narrow gap of illusions that are truly powerful in offence.
  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, NorwayMember Posts: 5,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Iocun said:
    Cahin said:
    There are still many illusions that are mechanically hard to anti-illusion to the point of either deciding to mark it as an illusion and ignore it entirely or cure it normally if it does occur.
    Most of them, actually, but that's not really important. It's not difficult to have a working illusion, but to have a working illusion that significantly helps you with your goal, assuming they have good priorities and cure well otherwise. There are many illusions that will go through, but won't provide you with a significant benefit if they do. And if they cure cleverly, there are also several potentially powerful illusions they can ignore at the cost of also ignoring some real things, but those real things being ignored doesn't actually harm them much. This does leave a relatively narrow gap of illusions that are truly powerful in offence.

    Being an apostate with a staff of illusions is an amazing thing.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    Iphis
  • LothienLothien Montréal, QuébecMember Posts: 257 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Garao said:

    Sylvan tweaks: 
    • Remove the 'bug' in heartseed where it is cured if the victim stays away from the heartseeder for x amount of time.
    This is fixed.
    Garao
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,691 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2013
    Daeir said:
    Please make dstab speed tied to the speed of the dirk instead of being arti-only :(

    I'm still really entry-level into Serpent melee combat but the difference between even a normal dirk and a level 1 artefact dirk is gigantic when chasing herb balance and it makes me legitimately sad to take upwards of 25 seconds to chase herb balance when an artefact dirk almost halves that time, when there is no recourse other than to spend exorbitant amounts of time and/or money in order to obtain a viable alternative.

    Doing this will make Serpents and forgers happy, at least us lowbie Serpents who cant/aren't willing to shell out such extreme quantities of money for a combat staple.
    It simply doesn't quite work that way. Abilities depending on weapon stats makes combat with those abilities not cheaper at all, but more expensive. Dstab would have to be balanced around top speed dirks in order to prevent it from becoming OP. Extraordinarily good weapons tend to cost extraordinarily much. In order to be somewhat competitive, you'd have to spend lots of money on good dirks (which also decay). You do know how ridiculous rapier prices can get, for instance?

    Limiting the market by only having a single dirk speed plus improved artefact variants allows for easier balancing and leads to less excessive prices. What they should do is simply narrow the gap between the different dirk speeds and make normal dirks faster (again).
    [Deleted User]Tael
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Fix alchemists.
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aina said:
    Fix alchemists.
    Or unfix, depending how you look at it. Because granted, my Svo clotting is broken, but their bleeding can get pretty outrageous.

    I've heard Reave is impossible but I've yet to put that to the test.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited February 2013
    <Blademaster> tweaks: 

    Impale: Disable the ability to impale off Paralyze. (Don't see why it's needed tbh)

    Voidfist: Needs complete reworking. to op or never works one or the other.

    Arash: Increase accuracy along with it's other effects.

    Mir: Decrease the damage taken by a bit and increase speed by a bit

    Thyr: Decrease damage taken a bit or increase damage done a bit

    Strikes needs reworked, Can currently strike .1 second before balance returns.

    Airfist: Increase the chance to bypass parry. Stop the 100% against guarding and instead prevent guardings stun+throw to ground from going through.

    Retalationstrike:Make it stop hitting Pinchblock

    Multislash: 1:Allow all three blades to be infused
    2:Increase damage lower balance time and make it only hit on prone (Finisher style)
    3:Increase damage increase bleed and make it only hit on prone (Finisher style)
    4:Allow it to target limbs with the targeting ability in weaponry.

    Health/Mana Transmute: Instead of base go off percentage of max.

    Phoenix: Make it a soulcage type instead.

    Burst: 1:Made into a ranged type attack
    2:Decrease balance time
    3:Increase damage with less base on int

    <Occultist> tweaks: 

    Delete class too op

    <Weapon> tweaks: 

    Make all weapons have a much smaller stat range for better balancing.

    <General> tweaks: 

    Make fake applies give a different message or do that whole vision check and see how close to breaking a limb really is, While making limb breaking classes alot easier there is little to no point in hiding limb breaking formula's from the mass when balance is the issue.

    <Monk> tweaks: 

    Axekick: Make the punches following axk for 2-3 seconds afterwards deal less damage (Because 80%+ axk combos are stupid) On second thought this would be a complete nerf to axk in general. Instead the strength modifiers need to be looked at so it doesn't effect non artied monks as much.
    Post edited by Caladbolg on

    ZeonTael
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Caladbolg said:

    <General> tweaks: 

    Make fake applies give a different message or do that whole vision check and see how close to breaking a limb really is, While making limb breaking classes alot easier there is little to no point in hiding limb breaking formula's from the mass when balance is the issue.
    Yes to that, but make the vision skill a 13 second balance.



    Xith takes some salve from a vial and rubs it on his right leg.
    4465h.100%, 3700m.100%, 13240e, 12836w 55% excd- 01:11:15.870
    You glance over Xith and see that his limbs are all completely healthy.
    4465h.100%, 3700m.100%, 13240e, 12836w 55% ecd- 01:11:17.369
    Xith sets a jack-in-the-box on the ground and quickly winds it while whispering, 'Caladbolg.' The cheerful music of a lute begins to emanate from it.
    4465h.100%, 3700m.100%, 13240e, 12836w 55% ecd- 01:11:17.924

    [...]

    You have recovered balance on all limbs.
    0h.0%, 3700m.100%, 13240e, 12836w 55% ecd- 01:11:30.324
     
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    Caladbolg
  • DornDorn Member Posts: 100 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    <Blademaster> tweaks: 

    Impale: Disable the ability to impale off Paralyze. (Don't see why it's needed tbh)
    Without impale off paralyze, certain classes become obnoxiously difficult or impossible to secure a pre-impaleslash on.

    Voidfist: Needs complete reworking. to op or never works one or the other.
    I've suggested a few possible tweaks to make it more balanced while retaining its utility both in 1v1 and groups. My favorite so far is removing the 'failed cure' possibility, and just having it extend herb balance by 1s.

    Arash: Increase accuracy along with it's other effects.
    Not so sure about this one, but I don't have any particular problems with it I guess?

    Mir: Decrease the damage taken by a bit and increase speed by a bit
    Mir is already a very powerful stance, it doesn't need to be made more powerful.

    Thyr: Decrease damage taken a bit or increase damage done a bit
    Avoidance levels adds a small amount of damage reduction, IIRC? Maybe make Thyr add a few levels of avoidance bonus, bit more in-theme with the stance.

    Strikes needs reworked, Can currently strike .1 second before balance returns.
    This might be possible but I don't think it's very effective. I guess you could use it with Pommelstrike to strike/pommel/strike, but they're going to cure one or both afflictions before your next strike anyway, so.

    Airfist: Increase the chance to bypass parry. Stop the 100% against guarding and instead prevent guardings stun+throw to ground from going through.
    I guess I'd be okay with this one - slight nerf against Monks, slight buff against everyone else.

    Retalationstrike: Make it stop hitting Pinchblock
    No. If you're fighting a Monk and worried about pinchblock, turn off retaliationstrike. It's not even that effective a defense anyway, if it needs buffs anywhere I'd say it needs them in damage.

    Multislash: 1:Allow all three blades to be infused
    2:Increase damage lower balance time and make it only hit on prone (Finisher style)
    3:Increase damage increase bleed and make it only hit on prone (Finisher style)
    4:Allow it to target limbs with the targeting ability in weaponry.
    1: Would it get the benefit of three infusions for one infuse cost, or would there need to be code reworking to allow stacked infusions?
    2+3: Either of these could work. A damage-finisher is basically all I use Multislash for at the moment anyway, making it our answer to Axekick would be nice.
    4: ...This would require a good bit of tweaking on numbers, and also require me to redo my limbcounter all over again to add in its math. Why am I excited about that idea?

    Health/Mana Transmute: Instead of base go off percentage of max.
    Hrm. This would be an interesting one. I'm assuming that 100 shin != 100% transmute?

    Phoenix: Make it a soulcage type instead.
    And this I like too, though with the Shin cost that would be a bit unusual - a Soulcage you have to set up mid-fight, at the cost of all your Shin, at a point where you likely won't need it. If that cost stayed, would the Phoenix last until triggered, or fade after a time?

    Burst: 1:Made into a ranged type attack
    2:Decrease balance time
    3:Increase damage with less base on int
    I'd be okay with all of these.

    <General> tweaks: 

    Make fake applies give a different message or do that whole vision check and see how close to breaking a limb really is, While making limb breaking classes alot easier there is little to no point in hiding limb breaking formula's from the mass when balance is the issue.
    If the vision check required balance/equilibrium and consumed equilibrium, even for just 0.5s, I'd be more than okay with a vision ability that picked up on limb damage thresholds. It rewards those who have reliable limbcounters with a slightly faster offense while allowing an easier entry into combat -and- making those very same limbcounters simpler to set up.

    <Monk> tweaks: 

    Axekick: Make the punches following axk for 2-3 seconds afterwards deal less damage (Because 80%+ axk combos are stupid) On second thought this would be a complete nerf to axk in general. Instead the strength modifiers need to be looked at so it doesn't effect non artied monks as much.
    I still kind of like the 'change Axekick damage to be reliant on limbs broken' idea I suggested in a classlead, but in general I agree Axekick needs looking at.



    My thoughts/responses in italics.
  • NemutaurNemutaur GermanyMember Posts: 1,068
    Caladbolg said:


    <Monk> tweaks: 

    Axekick: Make the punches following axk for 2-3 seconds afterwards deal less damage (Because 80%+ axk combos are stupid) On second thought this would be a complete nerf to axk in general. Instead the strength modifiers need to be looked at so it doesn't effect non artied monks as much.
    Yeah, the strength scaling of axekick really needs to be looked at. It's very horrible at 12 strength but gets out of hand as you approach 17+ strength
    Xith
  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Problem with making daegger hunt ignore or bypass shield, though, is this:

    envenom daegger with delphinium x20
    daegger hunt
    ---wait for it---
    deadeyes sleep sleep

    It would lead to unblockable sleep locks.

    Though, it certainly would encourage people to keep mana-draining metawake on, which isn't a bad thing for apostates.
    image
  • ZeonZeon Member Posts: 757 @ - Epic Achaean
    Or i could turn on metawake and afk.

                   Party right, party hard,

                                            Sing and dance, perfect bard.

                                                                     Prefarar loop, accentato whore,

                                                                                             Buy a new rapier, get nerfed some more.

    Tvistor
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,691 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh, and here was me thinking the daegger hunt not stopped by shield idea was just a joke...

    Dorn said:
    If the vision check required balance/equilibrium and consumed equilibrium, even for just 0.5s, I'd be more than okay with a vision ability that picked up on limb damage thresholds.
    I'm all for a limb assessment ability, which is why I classleaded it after all, but it would have to come at an eq cost of much higher than 0.5 seconds. Should be at least 3 seconds, really, to discourage using it excessively, rather than just to check occasionally and relying on limb counting inbetween. (Particularly considering that people who rely strongly on breaks tend to rely less on momentum, so eq loss doesn't hinder their offence that much.) 
    Nemutaur said:
    Yeah, the strength scaling of axekick really needs to be looked at. It's very horrible at 12 strength but gets out of hand as you approach 17+ strength
    As I've said before, I don't believe axekick should do great damage at all. BBT is monk's "burst damage on prone target" ability and works perfectly fine for that purpose. Having two such abilities only makes for harder balancing and is unnecessary. Axekick should do damage comparable to other kicks, have balance comparable to other kicks, always give guaranteed level 1 head damage, but still only work on prone targets. Actually, make it give guaranteed level 2 head damage.
    JhuiTaelZeonCaladbolg
  • DornDorn Member Posts: 100 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    WRT eq cost: As long as it had an eq cost -at all- it would be fine. I'd like it to be relatively short so that newbies can use it to rely on, but it would also have to be long enough to encourage them to find better ways. 0.5s seems the minimum to cause any kind of significant disruption (that's going to basically neutralize any benefit of fast rapiers for Knights), longer wouldn't be unreasonable. 3s seems excessive, perhaps 1.5-2s? That makes it basically half your attack rate, and while most limb classes don't rely on momentum, we can certainly make use of momentum to hinder a momentum class' offense (see: Knights stacking paralysis, Blademasters opening with a pom-chain and trying to maintain paralysis or spamming hands, Monks... Okay I guess Monks don't care).

    Of course, if you make it require only equilibrium, then taking 3s or even longer becomes more fair.



    WRT Axekick: If it's basically just a 'guaranteed headbreak kick', what's it for? I don't think Monks really care about head breaks. Not even level 2 breaks, really. Especially since if you've got them prone you probably broke legs, so they're going to be putting salve balance there first.

    Could make it cause one level of damage, and become an insta if it hits with a level 2 break already in place. That would force people to choose between curing head (and risking extra BBTs) or curing legs (and risking an instakill axekick). Add a fun flavour message or two ("As you bring the heel of your foot down upon Iocun's head, you feel his skull shatter under the impact. His body jerks sharply before falling limp.", "As Nemutaur's heel comes down on your head, you feel bone splinter as your skull shatters like an egg.", "Iocun's head has exploded from the force of Nemutaur's axekick.") and you're done. Essentially it becomes kind of like a Monk vivi - you need to alter your curing for it or you'll probably die to it very easily, but curing against it opens you up to other options.
    Rajan
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