Quick Combat Questions

Iocun

@Daeir: You didn't really answer @Sena's question though. The question was not whether you think it should be an instakill, but merely whether it being one would make it better.

Likewise, do you believe a truelock must be curable?

We can't give you a "constructive, logical reason for why having permanent afflictions makes sense", as this is a game made up of its own internal rules and anything in it can be considered to make sense unless there is something about it that causes it not to make sense within this particular game world.

If you consider the fact that it can allow you to get away while still requiring you to resort to death to cure it to be griefy, then simply don't run away.

Anedhel

Iocun said:

@Daeir: You didn't really answer @Sena's question though. The question was not whether you think it should be an instakill, but merely whether it being one would make it better.

Likewise, do you believe a truelock must be curable?

We can't give you a "constructive, logical reason for why having permanent afflictions makes sense", as this is a game made up of its own internal rules and anything in it can be considered to make sense unless there is something about it that causes it not to make sense within this particular game world.

Yes. I think that idea that only monks can kill people if their arm is broken with mind sense hasn't gotten enough time in the limelight!

Caladbolg

Daeir said:

I'm not saying it should be an instant kill, but the actual affliction/state itself should be timed, at least. Escaping at that point is already difficult enough, and you essentially escape to die to heartstop or an ally rather than the person who should have gotten the kill. I just don't see the point in having them permanent - it just griefs the person who has it. Congratulations, you escaped from a very difficult scenario mere seconds away from death, but you're going to die anyway because this shit is uncurable, so enjoy your heatstop or ally-inflicted death. Having it timed for a reasonably long duration (5 minutes or so) still affords some counterplay without death being the sole option.

As much as I think it should be healable. because a permanent affliction in my mind seems a bit weird as far as the game flow goes. It does still give you a chance to run when they do it. it gives them the chance to just leave and let the afflictions kill you.

If enlightenment was healable then the occultist (as far as I know) wouldn't be able to hinder you after using it to stop you from running away.  If that happens then Enlighten would be pretty much useless as everyones going to run heal it come back or something of the such. and we'd go back to the dark days of artied out meteor/warping and no one wants that ._.

Jovolo

ENLIGHTENMENT IS THE "DEAD-TO-RIGHTS" ABILITY. Unravel was implemented MUCH LATER ON to enable Occultists a way to actually instant kill from ENLIGHTEN in a way that wasn't trying to warp or behead them. It is, very much so, completely comparable to a true lock (except easier to escape from once the "lock" is in place - thus, Unravel!).

Why is it griefing? Why is it unnecessary? Why is it a "terrible mechanic"? It's bloody cool flavour and there's nothing wrong with it.

My god.

Jhui

Daeir, forums aren't your thing when you're in complain mode.

What you should be saying is this: "Thank god enlighten isn't an instakill, and they still have to unravel afterwards!  I'm rarely hindered at the time of enlighten so i can easily trigger this to earring to my buddy or CT DELIVER!.  Poor occultists, they will never get me!  I make tons of friends afterwards, too, because I give someone precious experience to kill me."

Iocun

I don't understand your argument. If you hate being able to escape and then having to kill yourself, why do you escape? There's nothing preventing you from just staying and allowing the occultist to kill you. If you call this situation "griefy", then you griefed yourself by running.

Enlightenment gives you a choice between staying and dying to the person who defeated you, or trying to escape if you're so intent on rather giving a friend the XP for killing you/robbing the occultist of the satisfaction of the kill. I don't get how having a choice can be considered griefy.

You also didn't respond to what you think about locks in that respect.

Nemutaur

Daeir said:

I think that a truelock is nominally harder to achieve in nearly every circumstance over enlightenment, though I say this having never played an Occultist to that point. Comparing them is pretty silly. Locks can also be abated by external abilities from other people (fool, hallelujah, so on) - enlightenment can't.

The choice between stay and die to the occultist or flee and die to a friend is not much of a choice. That is my problem. What is so wrong with giving enlightenment a long, static duration so as to allow an avenue out of the dead-or-dead choice that you currently have?

It is a choice, at least you get to deny the Occie the gain of exp, completing the contract or satisfaction of killing you himself. Truelocks well lets say you could try to tumble back to your home city to get fooled/devotion cured but chances are you are not getting that far. I'd much rather try to walk home with enlightenment and usually the mental affs that are associated with it, much better odds.

Once there I could heartstop if I don't want to die to a friend, get into the arena (as long as this isn't fixed) assuming a friend could magician/priestess/heal me up nicely so that I could get in, kick a rat and hope that by boar tattoo doesn't cure me up faster than that little pest can get me (can you imagine dying to a rat on death sight, lovely entertainment and you'll still be laughing about it in 2015).

Just because true lock can be cured doesn't mean enlightenment should be. If Achaea really worked like that then all classes would just be generic copies of one another with different flavour text. Just because a blade master can prone somebody after the break doesn't mean a monk should get the same blah di blah blah blah.

Dunn

I went to bed and this is still continuing. This is not the thread for it and there is clearly no message sinking in. I don't understand how enlightenment is griefing YOU, the enlightened, when you are then able to deny the Occultist the satisfaction of killing you him/herself. Even if that were true, both parties are being griefed. Just stop.

Cynlael

Push it.

Iocun

I don't think a comparison to a truelock is silly at all. Both are final states that someone can get you in through afflicting, both can be defended against with good curing/general defence, and both have the main property of stopping you from curing anything beyond that point. I don't think either one of them is distinctly harder to achieve than the other, but that depends on many factors, such as class constellations.

Locks can be cured by other people, but that doesn't typically make such a huge difference in the majority of fights. Sure, it occasionally does happen that an afflicter locks an opponent and he gets away and gets cured, but in the majority of cases you stay locked until you die. Enlightenment may be all in all a bit more "secure" than a true lock (due to external healing and passive curing), but that doesn't mean that truelocks are balanced around this insecurity. What balances them are all the ways in which they can be prevented, and the same goes for enlightenment.

Eld

Nemutaur said:

...

Once there I could heartstop if I don't want to die to a friend, get into the arena (as long as this isn't fixed) assuming a friend could magician/priestess/heal me up nicely so that I could get in...

Arena doesn't work.

Makarios

I'll interject here and mention that there is a way to cure enlighten (that isn't a finite resource).

I'll leave finding it up to you all!

Penwize

HONOURSF MAKARIOS:

Makarios, the Master Troll (male Immortal).
He was born before time was counted.

Dunn

UNRAVEL MIND OF MAKARIOS

Trevize

Makarios said:

I'll interject here and mention that there is a way to cure enlighten (that isn't a finite resource).

I'll leave finding it up to you all!

When I was last an occultist (ages ago) it faded after 24 hours or so, and also went away if you killed the occie. Not sure if either still apply.

Then again, back then, you could give it away with bedevil. (not enlightenment itself, but every other affliction - including whispering madness)

Caladbolg

Makarios said:

I'll interject here and mention that there is a way to cure enlighten (that isn't a finite resource).

I'll leave finding it up to you all!

And now to test that method that worked like 10 years ago.

Eld

On a related note, can an occultist only unravel someone who they themselves have enlightened, or can one enlighten and another unravel off of it?

Florentino

The latter.

Seftin

I figured it out. Shake flask (infinite starbursts) sip voyria from the flasks that magically refill. Bam. Enlightenment.

Nakari

is the sawbones trait worth it?

Seftin

I think so personally - as an infernal I used it and it really helped. It gives you states of damage like lightly damaged, heavily damaged etc this then lets you know which limbs are prepped and displays crippled for broken limbs. Useful for avoiding fake applies/ etc, though depends on class.

As a knight/blade master I would always take it, a monk probably not.

Arador

Worth it for a Knight. Especially now that limb damage can reset.

Nakari

bah, I should really specify class. I'm considering it for sylvan. On one hand, it would be even easier to track the states with number of hits, I'd imagine. On the other hand, it's not too hard to re-prep a limb anyhow. Though from what's being said it sounds like it would be pretty handy

How bad's the restore eq increase?

Arador

Like 2 seconds at the high end IIRC. Since you ever really need restore when dueling Infernals, do not worry about it. Though Sylvan preps so fast, I would not call it a must have.

Rom

Between having free parry bypass and simplified limb damage, I'd say that trait slot is best used differently for Sylvan. Have loved it as Sentinel and knight though!

Edit: Restore increase isn't bad since I've only ever restored with it to prevent vivisect or have been forced (very preventable). Can be annoying of course but it isn't often relevant.

Antonius

I wouldn't bother with it as any "4 hits is a break" class, you're just not going to get anywhere near the benefit from it that a Knight or Blademaster would.

Kafziel

Yeah I wouldn't take it for sylvan. Sylvan has it easy as far as limb prep is concerned because like Rom said 1) free parry bypass, 2) 4 hits to break but also 3) for legs you can rend/swing staff target and the swing staff will only work when the limb breaks, so fake applies are mostly irrelevant - you can just break and then count 4 from there

Kafziel

How are they relevant to the topic at hand (sawbones/limb damage)?

Anedhel

Sawbones is the best thing.

Caladbolg

Seftin said:blade master I would always take it, a monk probably not.

I bearly use it as a blademaster, It's easy enough to reset limbs with compassslash and knees then impale when they don't stand into impaleslash for resetting limbs.

As far as the now that limbs reset thing goes, since they have a set time of resetting you can code it into your limb counter to automatically reset if you haven't hit that leg in x amount of time.

----

But for my question. Since Priests can give me hamstring and impaleslash when I give it to them can they also give enlightement back to occultists?

I thought hamstring/Impaleslash was kinda weird not sure if that's a bug or not.