Quick Combat Questions

Xith

Achaeans are so helpful.

Shecks

Can you use multiple (different) stat elixirs at the same time?

Tecton

Shecks said:

Can you use multiple (different) stat elixirs at the same time?

You can, yes.

Exelethril

Is the proc chance for gravehands/tentacles/piety/overgrowth 33%?

Rakon

Yes.

Exelethril

Hmm, which classes can use Fitness? Knights, monks and blademasters?

Sena

Knights, monks, blademasters, druids, sentinels.

Kuy

Sena said:

Knights, monks, blademasters, druids, sentinels.

While it's not exactly the same, a serpent's shrugging can be used to the same capacity and is stopped via the same methods.

Jovolo

That's just active curing. Fitness directly cures asthma.

Naah

In drawn out fights (Damn you serpents) if find myself running out of willpower quickly.

Maybe I should just learn to prep faster or something; but it's more and more common when I try to duel/spar (in delos arena) when I run out of willpower and ultimately die.

Is it worth it to keep kaitrance/mind lock up for the duration of the spar; or should I activate it when I'm ready?

Xer

Depending on who you fight, I would be wary of keeping a mind lock up. Since I've never been a Monk, I can't comment on willpower issues, but uh... I know I made Cooper rage as a Shaman by taking advantage of the fact that I knew he had a mind lock on me. 

Iakimen

Naah said:

In drawn out fights (Damn you serpents) if find myself running out of willpower quickly.

Maybe I should just learn to prep faster or something; but it's more and more common when I try to duel/spar (in delos arena) when I run out of willpower and ultimately die.

Is it worth it to keep kaitrance/mind lock up for the duration of the spar; or should I activate it when I'm ready?

As I've only seen you fight Ellodin, I can only make limited observations. Nonetheless:

If you were locking, should probably use the lock. Saw no evidence of usage. Certainly mind travel would've been effective, since he wasn't utilizing area boundaries. I do not think you have the weaponry required to utilize mind command (and no, whirlwind is not a good substitute). Note that mind locking is a double-edged sword against a Serpent, and other classes - failing to utilize it properly at the beginning simply makes it grow worse as it goes on, due to lower willpower and the frequent need to use equilibrium against Serpents.

Kai trance can be kept - though, again, I rarely saw you using it, too little to perhaps merit it's upkeep.

Other issues likely would've been other active abilities you had on upkeep and the lack of an amulet/trans philo/megalith tattoo.

Xli

Kai trance needs to be kept up to gain kai - you can't just put up trance and then cripple / enfeeble / choke / etc. If you're not making use of kaido, you're missing out on a whole bunch of useful abilities, especially against snakes with high dex / weaving / etc who will dodge your Tekura

Cooper

Trance should be kept up in every fight you ever have. It's your defense and offense. Mind lock should never be kept up for an entire fight. It will destroy your willpower and is not useful until you go for the kill, but only in rare situations.

Kross

Cooper said:

Trance should be kept up in every fight you ever have. It's your defense and offense. Mind lock should never be kept up for an entire fight. It will destroy your willpower and is not useful until you go for the kill, but only in rare situations.

Just to add to that, luckily if you find yourself in a crappy situation, 90% of the useful abilities in telepathy are usable while in room with the target. So, for those terrible times when magical retardation drops...batter like mad until you can cure out or annoy the other guy enough to dampen.

Shecks

Kuy said:

Sena said:

Knights, monks, blademasters, druids, sentinels.

While it's not exactly the same, a serpent's shrugging can be used to the same capacity and is stopped via the same methods.

Lol no.

Kuy

Shecks said:

Kuy said:

Sena said:

Knights, monks, blademasters, druids, sentinels.

While it's not exactly the same, a serpent's shrugging can be used to the same capacity and is stopped via the same methods.

Lol no.

Shrugging can be used to cure out of a lock in the same manner of fitness.  The difference is that fitness will always and only cure asthma, where shrugging can cure any venom-related (I believe this is the restriction) affliction.  While it will sometimes cure something not lock-related, it will often break you free the same way fitness will.

This is only furthered in the fact that shrugging is prevented the exact same way fitness is: being off equilibrium or having the weariness affliction.

It would seem, actually, that shrugging is arguably more powerful than fitness.  This is because it can be used in far more cases than fitness, as it is basically a tree tattoo that is stopped with weariness instead of paralysis.

So yes, since fitness is no longer a defense, and fitness's primary use is to cure asthma when otherwise locked, shrugging can be used to the same capacity - to cure out of a lock.

As to the tone of your response, I'm left feeling that nit-picking will be done about Shrugging's potential to cure a "useless" affliction instead of a locking affliction.  To that, I say two things: First, I am not saying that Shrugging is the same thing as Fitness.  I am saying it can be used the same way.  Second, Shrugging can be used before you are locked, allowing you the room to cure impatience or part of the kelp stack that may be used to stack asthma.  Not to mention the combination of Tree + Shrugging theoretically makes an Occultist's ability to stack afflictions rather difficult, since their kill methods involve the number of afflictions instead of the particular afflictions.

Also, Hi.  I don't think we've met.  My name is Kuy, and I value logic and reason above just about all else.  Responses to my posts of "Lol no" will lead to me dragging your tag through long-winded discussions that generally end with citing basic principles of logic and boring most people into submission.  This can, however, be avoided by accompanying your posts with, surprisingly enough, valid, well-thought out reasons to your objections.

Shecks

@kuy fair enough - wasn't really trying to be dickish there, but I considered that comment blatantly wrong. With you having explained it, I agree with most of your post, and I also agree that shrugging is a fantastic curing skill. However, specifically for using shrugging to stop a venom lock, it is nowhere even close to fitness, as proper use of fitness and anti-illusion makes a venom lock virtually impossible, while shrugging simply may, sometimes, slightly disrupt one.

No need to get into the dirty details, Iocun did that for us in another post, where he very clearly explained this exact thing. At the end of the day, asthma is the key to a venom lock, making an ability to cure it 100% of the time) without herbs really powerful. There's also the fact that it can be used every two seconds.

Shrugging does have the advantage of not telling he other guy what you cured, which is a nice benefit, but when it comes to preventing locks, fitness is the best ability in the game other than -maybe- dragonheal.

Caladbolg

Anyone know what kind of attacks have a high base damage compared to the % damage?

I'm trying to compare low life for the base heal shin gives me vs more life for surviving more base damage attacks.

Cooper

Every part of the venom lock is important. Any of the lock afflictions cured will let you cure the rest. It doesn't matter which one you cure which is why shrugging is just as strong as fitness.

Jovolo

Shrugging is more powerful than fitness. The only time this is arguable, really, is if the target has several additional afflictions ("Buffers"). In the same way Tree suffers from this weakness, as you can't specify what you want to cure and you have a progressively higher chance of curing an irrelevant affliction. However, if you've been using Tree and Shrugging appropriately up to that point, it is almost impossible to secure any stack on a Serpent, and the method to prevent this active curing? - Also prevents Fitness. 

Not to mention you can actively Tree/Shrugging and continue to hinder your opponent because you'll suffer no penalty to your offence, unlike the minimum two second balance cost of fitness.

Fitness is still strong, though. Of course.

Jhui

Spot on.  Shrugging is 2 tree tattoos. it essentially ruins any form of momentum a person could hope to achieve. It's 100% broken, and was put in place to appease all the cry-babies that lost old shrugging.  It should be stronger than fitness, but not what it currently is.

Personally, anyone should prefer new shrugging to old, because it can eliminate many, if not all kills that are affliction related (outside of delph ganks, or delph break kills).  People are fucking retarded if they argue the opposite.

To put this in comparison, I would probably prefer serpent curing to priest curing.  That is 1 passive curing + 1 active curing.  The point being, shrugging is a completely separate balance and has no effect on your offense.  Serpents should only die to damage at this point, which they are also strong against, via dodging and scales.

Strata

Jhui said:

Spot on.  Shrugging is 2 tree tattoos. it essentially ruins any form of momentum a person could hope to achieve. It's 100% broken, and was put in place to appease all the cry-babies that lost old shrugging.  It should be stronger than fitness, but not what it currently is.

Personally, anyone should prefer new shrugging to old, because it can eliminate many, if not all kills that are affliction related (outside of delph ganks, or delph break kills).  People are fucking retarded if they argue the opposite.

To put this in comparison, I would probably prefer serpent curing to priest curing.  That is 1 passive curing + 1 active curing.  The point being, shrugging is a completely separate balance and has no effect on your offense.  Serpents should only die to damage at this point, which they are also strong against, via dodging and scales.

A cool-down, yes. Weariness stops it, yes. Can be done off balance/equilibrium, no.

ex-hide

You conceal yourself using all the guile you possess.

e-shrugging

You have recovered balance on all limbs.

[System]: Running queued command: SHRUGGING

Focusing inward, you purge your body of afflictions.

Disrupt, as far as I know, would also stop it. I shrug more often than usual and that can either be good or bad depending on my opponent. Saying it can eliminate many, if not all kills that are affliction related is a bit of an overstatement.

As far as dodging and scales go: Runewarden and monk damage? Uhhh... Yeah.

Occultists are going to have difficulty not because of shrugging, but because any serpent who knows what s?he is doing will do whatever is necessary to slow you down or otherwise enable themselves to cure. Which means you've lost momentum and have to start all over again. Serpents do this several times during a fight in order to achieve lock. Some class match-ups are better than others. I don't see a problem with Occultist vs. Serpent aside from fool tarot being pretty much useless since it is stopped by paralysis. Occultists too easy to lock.

Antonius

Serpent isn't some unique class where its players are the only fighters in the game who "will do whatever is necessary to slow you down or otherwise enable themselves to cure." Shrugging is an absolutely huge advantage against a class like Occultist that relies on afflictions, even if you do have to wait, at most, ~2 seconds to recover balance and/or equilibrium from attacking or whatever.

Jovolo

Strata said:

Jhui said:

-snip-

A cool-down, yes. Weariness stops it, yes. Can be done off balance/equilibrium, no. [1]

ex-hide

You conceal yourself using all the guile you possess.

e-shrugging

You have recovered balance on all limbs.

[System]: Running queued command: SHRUGGING

Focusing inward, you purge your body of afflictions.

Disrupt, as far as I know, would also stop it. I shrug more often than usual and that can either be good or bad depending on my opponent. Saying it can eliminate many, if not all kills that are affliction related is a bit of an overstatement. [2]

As far as dodging and scales go: Runewarden and monk damage? Uhhh... Yeah.

Occultists are going to have difficulty not because of shrugging, but because any serpent who knows what s?he is doing will do whatever is necessary to slow you down or otherwise enable themselves to cure. [3] Which means you've lost momentum[4] and have to start all over again. Serpents do this several times during a fight in order to achieve lock. Some class match-ups are better than others. I don't see a problem with Occultist vs. Serpent aside from fool tarot being pretty much useless since it is stopped by paralysis. Occultists too easy to lock.

1. The main point here is in comparison with fitness. Literally everything you mentioned as a weakness of Shrugging here is also a weakness of fitness. The point of it being its own balance, is that it doesn't actually -cost- you any balance or equilibrium. You can tree;shrug;dstab or tree;shrug;evade very easily, if you need to. You can only Fitness - wait two seconds - Fitness - wait two seconds.

2. Disrupt also stops fitness. Shrugging prevents affliction kills because of the way affliction kills work - you build up momentum by sticking certain afflictions on your opponent and forcing them into a choice of what they have to cure; if you do this well enough, it's very difficult for your opponent to actually avoid a lock unless they take advantage of class abilities in active or passive healing, or escape abilities. Shrugging is strong because it can be used to prevent the serpent from ever actually reaching this point of the pinnacle of affliction combat - to cure A, B, or C. 

3. "knowing what you're doing" isn't a trait solely belonging to Serpent's. As this is the case, that means Occultists should have huge difficulty in killing anybody that really knows what they're doing. To be fair, this is also quite true; but not to the extent of it actually being practically impossible to kill a Serpent that can utilize tree, shrugging, and evade in a skillful manner. Imagine an Occultist fighting a Serpent who uses shrugging effectively, and a Serpent who doesn't use shrugging at all. The HUGE difference here should be evidence enough for you. 

4. Similar to my second point. The thing with shrugging is that an Occultist (and any other aff class) can't lose momentum, because it's very difficult to gain any in the first place. 

And yeah, Knight damage is huge if the opponent is someone like Kest or Antonius, as it's highly unlikely they're going to ever have you dodge - but you should try fighting a serpent with weaving up and 16+ dexterity as a Monk or with ~150 to-hit weapons. I wanted to die. Frankly, I hate dodging as a mechanic. It'd be so much simpler if dodging was removed and damage was decreased in line with it, but I have a love affair with affliction combat so I'm inevitably biased. //personalopinioninput

Arador

Dodging as a mechanic has always bothered me as it can so badly screw up critical blows. Having fought a few high dex serpents with weaving and rebounding up, just standard setup is a pain in the rear of note. Getting past parry is a nightmare to say the least. If they focus on sticking clumsiness, you might as well just go home or heartstop. Either you end up missing a blow on the break or a critical venom is dodged. And of course if you do manage to get all your blows to land in time....shrug and goodbye vivisect chance even without restore. So you have to go for DSB and say hello to parry. The moment you get any affliction momentum, rebounding comes to say hello and it is back to square one.

Shrugging is still very powerful at avoiding kills. I agree with the sentiments above and wish the skill could be looked at. 

As a physical class, I would gladly trade a bit of damage for the ability to actually hit a high dex serpent (jester as well for that matter but because so few fight it is not as common a problem). As far as I can see, changing dodging so that the venom and the limb damage still goes through but the health damage itself is reduced to a half or even a third should be a decent compromise. I feel bad for Monks as they get dodged more but I feel even worse for Knights because even if we are dodged less, our setup time is much, much longer and if you add in parry and rebounding, yeah....

The way dodging is now, it is even worse than old shrugging because there the health and limb damage actually still went through.

Antonius

Dodging and shrugging have nothing to do with each other. Serpents didn't start dodging more because shrugging was changed. A lot of them are speccing dexterity now because of the other changes that came along at the time, but on the whole I'd say they don't dodge knights much more often than they did before (one or two points of dex isn't that big a deal). So it's not worse than old shrugging; it's a lot better, because when you DO hit them you can at least guarantee that the venom will also take effect.

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for Knights who complain about dodging while willingly using ~150 to-hit weapons. That's a choice you make, you could - and perhaps should - sacrifice damage and speed, particularly as an Infernal with Frenzy, for better accuracy.

Arador

I know the increased dodging is because of the DEX respec. Was just very rare before and common now. As for the weapon issue, that is still a problem with the forgings system and good weapons are a bit more rare with no Salik types Forging like crazy. Perhaps if weapons are reworked a bit this will change but currently pickings are slim and expecting people to be willing to pay credits for being able to hit a serpent or to take massive speed knocks is a bit silly.

Yes there are options, they just seem a bit narrow and focused around an RNG mechanic that can completely screw your entire 5 minute setup. For monks, there are less options still.

"Find better weapons " is fine for me. I can afford them. But not really fair to smaller guys.

Shecks

I have noticed a trend among basically every single monk player I've encountered since I've come back.

Everyone knows it, its the simple double leg prep, game over strategy.

So far hindrance is useless, since nearly everyone I fight shield spams until they have zero afflictions.  Inevitably the leg breaks and you are toast, unless you have an icewall that you can tumble through.

So, if a monk firewalls (no icewall to tumble with) is dead-set on not having more than 2-3 afflictions, and/or shields spams on every snap, and continues to prep legs slowly working towards that guaranteed win, how can he be beaten?

This isn't a rant, its an honest question, because I see monks lose occasionally, and I seriously can't figure out how to beat this strategy that is so easy a mentally challenged six year old could do it.  Please help me figure out how to beat this, it's starting to drive me a little crazy.

Shecks

Jhui said:

Spot on.  Shrugging is 2 tree tattoos. it essentially ruins any form of momentum a person could hope to achieve. It's 100% broken, and was put in place to appease all the cry-babies that lost old shrugging.  It should be stronger than fitness, but not what it currently is.

Personally, anyone should prefer new shrugging to old, because it can eliminate many, if not all kills that are affliction related (outside of delph ganks, or delph break kills).  People are fucking retarded if they argue the opposite.

To put this in comparison, I would probably prefer serpent curing to priest curing.  That is 1 passive curing + 1 active curing.  The point being, shrugging is a completely separate balance and has no effect on your offense.  Serpents should only die to damage at this point, which they are also strong against, via dodging and scales.

This is wrong, I lock serpents all the time, who are using shrugging every 10 seconds.  It is not possible to lock someone who is using fitness correctly, as has already been discussed.  The same goes for other affliction setups.  @Cooper You're wrong about every part of a lock being equal.  They are not.  I'm not going to write a book about it here, (again, because its already been done in several threads), but asthma is by far the most pivotal part of a lock.  Further shrugging can easily grab an affliction that isn't even part of the lock.  Better yet, you might be off shrugging balance for the entire lock prep, which only takes about 6-8 seconds.  With fitness, this isn't possible, unless your curing is dumb and you keep DSLing until your limbs stop working right.

Your argument is like saying that someone having at tree tattoo makes it impossible to lock them, or kill via any affliction setup.  Obviously this isn't true, and I prove on a daily basis that people who have shrugging can easily be locked.  To be honest I don't even really notice it that much.  I'd take a shield tattoo over shrugging any day of the week.