Quick Combat Questions

Kuy

How many bricks are in this wall, anyway?

Cooper

If you shrug impatience you can focus the anorexia and eat asthma and then smoke immediately

If you shrug anorexia you can eat kelp for asthma and smoke immediately (or eat goldenseal for impatience if you want)

If you shrug asthma you can smoke for the gecko and apply for anorexia and eat for impatience

No matter what you cure of the lock afflictions you can cure the rest.

Also, you have a much easier time locking people with a dex focused build (I think you have dex artie too?) and a thoth's fang. Against 98% of people all you have to do is hypno them and then spam a random combination of paralysis/asthma/gecko/slike/vernalius/clumsiness and randomly snap somewhere in the middle and you'll lock them.

Jovolo

Obviously, the people you're fighting who use shrugging every ten seconds (what the hell?) aren't aware of how to actually cure against a Serpent, as a Serpent.

If they did, you wouldn't think it was so average.

Shecks

I know you guys seem to have it in your head that shrugging is some kind of super-ability... but I'm telling you, as an affliction class, it really is pretty unimportant.  Yes its good, but not that good.  Its unreliable, and has a third-person message.  A third of the classes in the game have hidden passive healing which has -no- requirements to use, and don't show the afflictor that they were healed.  I can't possibly imagine how you could say that shrugging is better than passive healing.

And again, you're shouting about how shrugging kills momentum (which it really doesn't impact that much in my experience), but why can that argument not be made about shielding?  If you want to get rid of shrugging because it kills momentum, then you should want to get rid of shield tattoos as well.  These skills are there specifically to stop momentum tactics from working, and its up to the opponent to compensate for it and react accordingly.  It doesn't mean its game over, just because the guy shrugged once.

Cooper

Shrugging is arguably better than passive healing because you choose when to activate it. An Apostate might have siphon up, but it might not go off before the damage is done in the lock. A lot of the passive curing has been slowed down, too - it's not nearly as powerful as it used to be (Priests still dumb).

Either way, getting to choose exactly when to shrug is extremely powerful, especially as you can combine it with tree tattoo, shielding, evade, dstabbing curare at the speed of light, etc.

You can't compare shield and shrugging. Shield takes 4s of EQ - meaning for at least the next 4 seconds, you can't attack your opponent either, which kills their momentum too. Shrugging doesn't have a balance or EQ cost associated with it, meaning it only helps your own momentum instead of killing it like touching shield would.

And, well, it does mean game over for a lot of classes if the person shrugs once. It makes them immune (if used smartly with proper curing) to Apostates, Infernals, Occultists, Serpents, and Shamans. It will also make life very difficult for most other classes (even monks - you're going to stand up 1 second faster when used properly, which can sometimes be the time necessary for that next bbt or axk, but not always of course).

Edit: You also want to look into what voyria does for you (thanks Jarrod).

Edit2: Forgot I was in dragon when testing shield, it's about 4s not 3.3s.

Naah

Shecks, everything you just stated about combat in the above post, just makes me want to disagree.

And: Get tankier. If a monk can kill you with two legs broken, you're either doing it wrong, or you're not diagnosing for the torso break.

I at least need to break an arm and torso to get a kill; and I'm lucky if I can stack an enfeeble against a serpent without getting locked first.

I shield and rebound a lot against serpents, and against @Strata it barely phases him; momentum is very important.

Edit: And if you're arguing with multiple top combatants about whether or not something is overpowered, BL-Broken, then I think you're fighting an uphill battle.

Rexia

Shecks said:

I have noticed a trend among basically every single monk player I've encountered since I've come back.

Everyone knows it, its the simple double leg prep, game over strategy.

So far hindrance is useless, since nearly everyone I fight shield spams until they have zero afflictions.  Inevitably the leg breaks and you are toast, unless you have an icewall that you can tumble through.

So, if a monk firewalls (no icewall to tumble with) is dead-set on not having more than 2-3 afflictions, and/or shields spams on every snap, and continues to prep legs slowly working towards that guaranteed win, how can he be beaten?

This isn't a rant, its an honest question, because I see monks lose occasionally, and I seriously can't figure out how to beat this strategy that is so easy a mentally challenged six year old could do it.  Please help me figure out how to beat this, it's starting to drive me a little crazy.

Glad to know I'm not the only having this problem. Once I have two legs broken, I'm guaranteed dead and short of buying every health raising/healing artefact in the game, I'm not sure what I could possibly do to change that situation.

Since their limb preps are uncurable by anything except time, and my damage is curable by ginseng/clotting/health/etc it becomes almost a guaranteed win for any monk who knows enough to prep limbs and leave the room when they get in trouble.

I really have no idea what to do to prevent this.

Kross

The limb prepping mechanic with monk is one of the two most notable ways to kill our opponents. It's either that, or enfeeble/choke and hope for the best.

1) Learn to pre-apply (sorry monks out there, kills might get tougher). If you can count your own limbs to know when you've been prepped, or notice the trend when you fight, you will know when that monk is about to double leg break you. So when you feel this is coming on, apply restoration to leg. We'll still break the limb and possibly get a bbt, but you'll stand before the following bbt/axe.

2) Prioritize your curing the right way. I don't know how many times people prioritize anything over curing legs. If you want to heal your legs to stand up faster, then do it.

3) (Serpents) Hypno more than just your afflictions. Fitness requires and takes balance. So force the action. Yes, you can even force them to touch their tree! (Shecks, you should know this, you force people to touch a gem of negation all the time).

4) Mount if you can. Mounting raises your dexterity and makes it annoyingly difficult for a monk to prep you. Not to mention, they cannot sweep from here, so we either have to banish your mount, whirlwind kick you from it(lol), kai cripple, or JPK from another room. Not to mention, if you can parry your head while mounted, this removes one full way of being dismounted. Anyone that can swiftmount (and most that can vault, I believe?) can remount after healing the kai cripple before we get eq back to sweep and break legs.

5) You have a shield tattoo  also. Monks have no way of getting through your shield, other than ranged damage like kai choke, or telepathy. The longer you're getting battered, crushed and chokes, the longer your limbs aren't getting broken.

6) For the really flavorful, and those of you who can watch rebounding...reset your own limbs. Weaponry has a pretty nifty skill called shatter. If you can track your lolmonk's rebounding to avoid it, why not track it to HIT it. Iocun did this to me in our spars and it pissed me off to the point where I stopped using rebounding against him completely. He'd wait til my rebounding came up, shatter his own left leg or right leg, cure it while I was curing his dstabs, and my counter would be thrown off as well as his limb reset completely. Yes, it's a stretch, but with enough practice i'm sure you'll be great too.

Kuy

Rexia said:

Shecks said:

I have noticed a trend among basically every single monk player I've encountered since I've come back.

Everyone knows it, its the simple double leg prep, game over strategy.

So far hindrance is useless, since nearly everyone I fight shield spams until they have zero afflictions.  Inevitably the leg breaks and you are toast, unless you have an icewall that you can tumble through.

So, if a monk firewalls (no icewall to tumble with) is dead-set on not having more than 2-3 afflictions, and/or shields spams on every snap, and continues to prep legs slowly working towards that guaranteed win, how can he be beaten?

This isn't a rant, its an honest question, because I see monks lose occasionally, and I seriously can't figure out how to beat this strategy that is so easy a mentally challenged six year old could do it.  Please help me figure out how to beat this, it's starting to drive me a little crazy.

Glad to know I'm not the only having this problem. Once I have two legs broken, I'm guaranteed dead and short of buying every health raising/healing artefact in the game, I'm not sure what I could possibly do to change that situation.

Since their limb preps are uncurable by anything except time, and my damage is curable by ginseng/clotting/health/etc it becomes almost a guaranteed win for any monk who knows enough to prep limbs and leave the room when they get in trouble.

I really have no idea what to do to prevent this.

You need to cure your torso damage.  It's hidden when it breaks.

Jhui

if you're not mounting against a monk (outside of BM/Dragon/monk because they can't really mount) you're going to die easier.

Jacen

Can't cure the torso break if it comes with a breaking combo and a single broke torso bbt will kill you. 

Cooper

@Naah I intentionally didn't point out to Shecks that the opportunity cost of having max/high dex was having low con and dying to damage easier (a lot easier).

It's just like if I went 100% strength and then complained that I couldn't kill anyone with kai choke or mind crush. Or if I specced int and couldn't kill knights with axk anymore.

Or if you spec quick-witted as a serpent and complain that your dstab isn't fast enough.

etc.

Kross

Breaking the torso hidden into a breaking combo would mean that you're either breaking three other limbs, or pent-breaking. I cannot sweep/double leg/torso break at the same time. Sure, I can sweep/break one leg/torso. But you'll most likely cure and stand before I can do anything with it.

Anyone with around 4500+ health and decent armor or damage mitigation/sipping won't die from one broken torso bbt.

Dunn

With a tfang you can fullspec con and still stab fast enough. Pretty sure.

Jacen

4824 health, low blunt armor (18%), was on the receiving end of a >84% lvl1 torso bbt from Iakiman last night.

Jovolo

Vitality to tank the first bbt and have enough kai on the second attempt to cripple.

Kross

Jacen said:

4824 health, low blunt armor (18%), was on the receiving end of a >84% lvl1 torso bbt from Iakiman last night.

Did you die? And if so, where was your health before the bbt? I'm generally curious because I almost never kill anyone  these days with a single lvl1 torso bbt.

Cooper

@Jovolo In monk 1v1 you don't let the other monk use kai cripple or kai heal in your break combo. They will also take your vitality down before attempting their full kill combo. Plus if a monk is crippled they are likely going to use axekick after curing legs instead of waiting the 2+ seconds to bbt, because after a bbt you're going to die to the axk anyway. (assuming equal arties).

Jacen

Jovolo's right, I didn't have vitality up for some reason. Also because of the way he broke, I should have realized he was only going to get one bbt/axk (swk arm leg, sdk arm leg) and could have numbed then ran. 

Arms were broken so no heal/cripple, and my SoA was unwielded by the arm breaks so no extra mitigation from that, but yeah, I could have numbed thru it.

@Kross, I died on the bbt, I had 84% health (4069) when he bbt'd me, but I didn't have vitality up.

edit: grammar

Kaden

Kross said:

6) For the really flavorful, and those of you who can watch rebounding...reset your own limbs. Weaponry has a pretty nifty skill called shatter. If you can track your lolmonk's rebounding to avoid it, why not track it to HIT it. Iocun did this to me in our spars and it pissed me off to the point where I stopped using rebounding against him completely. He'd wait til my rebounding came up, shatter his own left leg or right leg, cure it while I was curing his dstabs, and my counter would be thrown off as well as his limb reset completely. Yes, it's a stretch, but with enough practice i'm sure you'll be great too.

Shatter bypasses rebounding if I remember correctly and is a moot point since you have to pause curing to let shatter go through (meaning paralysis or sweepkick will stop it immediately). All you really need is a blunt weapon (even that's not necessary, really) and rebounding to screw with limbcount (don't even need to reset the limb. Just mess up the count). Just a normal targeted attack should do it, which is really why you should never use rebounding as a prep class unless you're reasonably certain it's safe (i.e. serpents who aren't Iocun, damage knights, etc.) or you're in group combat.

Edit: Heck, you don't even have to watch out for it. Just being another weapon-based prep class gives you a chance to ruin their prep by accident.

Shecks

Cooper said:

@Naah I intentionally didn't point out to Shecks that the opportunity cost of having max/high dex was having low con and dying to damage easier (a lot easier).

It's just like if I went 100% strength and then complained that I couldn't kill anyone with kai choke or mind crush. Or if I specced int and couldn't kill knights with axk anymore.

Or if you spec quick-witted as a serpent and complain that your dstab isn't fast enough.

etc.

I have 19 Con and 6900 health, with a level 2 sip ring and level 4 health regen.  I'm going to look into pre-applying, but aside from that, you can't really "do it wrong".

Also, IRT the shrugging thing, I am telling you, as a fact, that you're over-valuing it.  I play an affliction class, and shrugging doesn't bother me at all.  Since you're convinced that whichever has the most people is always right, I'm going to stop bothering to try explaining how you're wrong.

Jovolo

Please explain, at all, how we're wrong. You haven't yet.

To put it in perspective, it's old siphon (activation every ten seconds) except you get to choose exactly when you want to activate at no cost to you being able to follow up with touch shield, or evade, or just continue away with your own offence.

Shecks

Instead of getting into great depth, I'll just lead with the same thing I've already said about it like 3 times.

I lock people who are using shrugging all the time.  Therefore, it doesn't make you "serpent/apostate/occultist" proof like some are claiming.  One cure every 10+ seconds is hardly going to phase me, no matter what that affliction is.

I'd rather everyone I fought had shrugging, than lifevision, for example.  It actually causes me far more difficulty (and cripples my momentum) all the time.

Jovolo

You locking people that don't know how to use shrugging to its proper effectiveness and who probably fight on base Svo or a pretty poor version thereof isn't an argument.

Shecks

I fail to see how going against an ability that lets you cure 1 affliction as an affliction class is any different than going against someone with transmute, as a damage class.  Yes, it slows momentum.  Yes, that's what it's designed to do.  No, it doesn't make people death-proof.  It's literally less than 1 second's worth of afflictions.

Arador

If a serpent uses Shrugging at the right moment, there is no way in hell I can vivisect them. Yet I do still vivisect some serpents. Saying that you manage to kill serpents in no way speaks to the power of the ability, it speaks only to the competence of the specific serpent.

Cooper

After this I'm done arguing with you.

You being able to lock some serpents does not change how powerful shrugging is.

You saying 'shrugging isn't as powerful as you think it is, that is a fact' does not make it a fact.

I've shown you exactly why shrugging is powerful and broken vs. certain classes.

You are making false statements left and right. You don't have 6.9k health. You don't die to double break/double bbt to unartied monks. (and probably not artied, either).

Here is a log of Jarrod with 4k health and no arties on. I have 15 str and level 3 knuckles.

Jarrod possesses 4051 health of 4051, 5656 mana of 5135, and 22532 willpower.

You drop to the floor and sweep your legs round at Jarrod.

You knock the legs out from under Jarrod and send him sprawling.

You ball up one fist and hammerfist Jarrod.

You connect to the left leg!

You ball up one fist and hammerfist Jarrod.

You connect to the right leg!

5847h, 6425m, 25740e, 25878w cekdb-5|5|5|5|7|7(-6m, 0.1%) 

5847h, 6425m, 25740e, 25878w cekdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

Jarrod takes some salve from a vial and rubs it on his legs.

5847h, 6425m, 25740e, 25878w cekdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

Jarrod hunches his shoulders and lets out a soft hiss.

5847h, 6425m, 25740e, 25878w cekdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

You have recovered balance on your right arm.

You have recovered balance on your left arm.

5847h, 6425m, 25740e, 25878w cekdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (2.85s)

5847h, 6425m, 25740e, 25880w cexkdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

You move in towards Jarrod for the backbreaker.

You lift Jarrod triumphantly into the air, then yank him down into your raised knee with back 

breaking force.

5847h, 6425m, 25690e, 25880w cekdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

Jarrod eats some irid moss.

5847h, 6419m, 25710e, 25878w cekdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

Jarrod takes some salve from a vial and rubs it on his legs.

5847h, 6419m, 25710e, 25878w cekdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

Jarrod takes some salve from a vial and rubs it on his legs.

5847h, 6419m, 25710e, 25878w cekdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

You have recovered balance on your right arm.

You have recovered balance on your left arm.

5847h, 6419m, 25710e, 25880w cekdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (3.645s)

5847h, 6419m, 25710e, 25880w cexkdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

You move in towards Jarrod for the backbreaker.

You lift Jarrod triumphantly into the air, then yank him down into your raised knee with back 

breaking force.

5847h, 6419m, 25660e, 25880w cekdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

Jarrod eats some irid moss.

5847h, 6425m, 25680e, 25878w cekdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

Jarrod takes some salve from a vial and rubs it on his legs.

5847h, 6425m, 25680e, 25878w cekdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

Jarrod stands up.

5847h, 6425m, 25680e, 25878w cekdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

You have recovered balance on your right arm.

You have recovered balance on your left arm.

5847h, 6425m, 25680e, 25878w cekdb-5|5|5|5|7|7

You have recovered balance on all limbs. (3.585s)

Just because you personally fail to see why shrugging (or anything else) is extremely powerful or better than another ability does not mean the ability is not powerful.

Florentino

How do you have level 4 health regen? Isn't it capped at 3?

Kross

Kaden said:

Kross said:

6) For the really flavorful, and those of you who can watch rebounding...reset your own limbs. Weaponry has a pretty nifty skill called shatter. If you can track your lolmonk's rebounding to avoid it, why not track it to HIT it. Iocun did this to me in our spars and it pissed me off to the point where I stopped using rebounding against him completely. He'd wait til my rebounding came up, shatter his own left leg or right leg, cure it while I was curing his dstabs, and my counter would be thrown off as well as his limb reset completely. Yes, it's a stretch, but with enough practice i'm sure you'll be great too.

Shatter bypasses rebounding if I remember correctly and is a moot point since you have to pause curing to let shatter go through (meaning paralysis or sweepkick will stop it immediately). All you really need is a blunt weapon (even that's not necessary, really) and rebounding to screw with limbcount (don't even need to reset the limb. Just mess up the count). Just a normal targeted attack should do it, which is really why you should never use rebounding as a prep class unless you're reasonably certain it's safe (i.e. serpents who aren't Iocun, damage knights, etc.) or you're in group combat.

Edit: Heck, you don't even have to watch out for it. Just being another weapon-based prep class gives you a chance to ruin their prep by accident.

Yeah, shortly after posting I realized what I put. Iocun didn't use shatter, he would just wait until he had one or two limbs prepped, then just wield his warhammer and hit my rebounding. A flail or any blunt weapon will  work, and not through the use of Shatter. Just target the limb and hit rebounding.

But yes, this is also why I don't use rebounding against knight classes. I can't be dealing with counting your limbs, plus whatever you would like to contribute on an (un)lucky rebounding strike. But the main point is that this is still a viable option in combat to ruin entire preparations. Add that to someone like Shecks who can be a serpent with high dex, weaving, mounted and you now have quite a few pissed off monks. Thank God they actually give kai though. Eff magi.

Strata

@Shecks Momentum in Achaea is about speaking up against things that are OP. OP can be very subjective at times. There is a lot of momentum behind the incomming shrugging nerf. Once it is nerfed, it's not the end of the world, we still have lupines with the highest accuracy among all who have shooting ability. (Until, ofcourse, they get that nerfed too)