Quick Combat Questions

Sidonia

Daeir said:

How do Apostates manage dealing with high health/high mana (particularly dform) targets with regen/sip artefacts? Fiend + pref hunt + spam bleeding doesn't seem to be getting their mana below 70%, and sapping seems to yield similar results. I'm thinking that sticking manaleech may be the only feasible way to achieve this, but it seems fairly clumsy to rely on kelp stacking and praying that they don't cure asthma.

If they're letting you hit them with hunt, why not go for a lock?

Borran

Sidonia said:

Daeir said:

How do Apostates manage dealing with high health/high mana (particularly dform) targets with regen/sip artefacts? Fiend + pref hunt + spam bleeding doesn't seem to be getting their mana below 70%, and sapping seems to yield similar results. I'm thinking that sticking manaleech may be the only feasible way to achieve this, but it seems fairly clumsy to rely on kelp stacking and praying that they don't cure asthma.

If they're letting you hit them with hunt, why not go for a lock?

Related question: How difficult is it to lock a dragon? Between tree tat, dragon heal, normal curing, and their ability to hinder with that web thing..

Edit: I wasn't done. Dragonheal adds two more requirements to the usual lock- Recklessness and Weariness, so I don't imagine it's very easy for most classes.

Borran

Daeir said:

Recklessness stops dragonheal? Did not know that, assumed it was just weariness like every other tertiary curing ability

Recklessness AND Weariness. Not OR.

At least that's what the AB says.

Mizik

Wtf really?

Antonius

@Borran: While they have willpower, if they use dragonheal constantly, you're not likely to lock them. However, there's a pretty hefty cost on dragonheal (750 to cure one affliction, not sure if it scales) so running them out of willpower would be a relatively easy thing to do (assuming you can survive, which in a lot of cases should be possible). Without willpower, I'm not sure if they'd still have enmesh available; if they do, it would still be pretty hard for a fair few classes to lock, because fuck enmesh.

Borran

Dragons suck. Delete dragons.

Kuy

I think I'd like Kuy to be a serpent.  I don't, however, have oodles of credits to toss around, and won't for a while.  Doing the math (including the two mayan crowns I'd get for buying 100 credits and conversion of bonus lessons), I can have ~3130 lessons if I switch.  He's only level 60 right now, though, so feasibly I can see at least 444 more.  Eventually, I'll be able to trickle in a few more purchases if I decide to stick with it, but it will be a while.

I'm worried, though, that even with this sort of investment, I won't be able to 1v1 very effectively.  I wouldn't think I'd be much of a threat to folks who know what they're doing, but I'd like to imagine that I could handle myself well enough.  That said, with this sort of investement, is there a possible skill setup that might see me being able to, you know, fight?

Eld

Kuy said:

I think I'd like Kuy to be a serpent.  I don't, however, have oodles of credits to toss around, and won't for a while.  Doing the math (including the two mayan crowns I'd get for buying 100 credits and conversion of bonus lessons), I can have ~3130 lessons if I switch.  He's only level 60 right now, though, so feasibly I can see at least 444 more.  Eventually, I'll be able to trickle in a few more purchases if I decide to stick with it, but it will be a while.

I'm worried, though, that even with this sort of investment, I won't be able to 1v1 very effectively.  I wouldn't think I'd be much of a threat to folks who know what they're doing, but I'd like to imagine that I could handle myself well enough.  That said, with this sort of investement, is there a possible skill setup that might see me being able to, you know, fight?

Well, it depends on who you want to be effective against. 3500 lessons will get you two trans skills (or one trans and some skill in two others). If you'll mostly be fighting people around your own might and skill level for a while, that should serve you fine. Over time, you'll find more chances for credits from org credit sales, purchases off the credit market with gold from bashing/questing, etc, to fill in what's missing. It might be slow going to get up to entry level for mid tier 1v1 pvp (trans class skills plus survival, at least), but it's doable, and on the way you can learn the basics of your class skills very well before adding in extra stuff.

As a serpent, top priority is trans subterfuge. After that, I'm not really sure whether it's better to focus on Venom or Hypnosis. Almost certainly, though, most of your lessons should be going to class skills. Personally, I'd suggest at least enough survival to get Physiology, and maybe Recovery (don't remember which is higher). 

Kuy

Hmm.  Is garrote based on weapon stats?

Cathy

Kuy said:

Hmm.  Is garrote based on weapon stats?

Yep, also your dexterity I think.

Tesha

To be honest, there are very few serpents even with a lot of trans skills that are scary 1v1. It is not the skills that makes a serpent scary, it is whether or not they know how to use them that makes them scary. If you want to be able to 1v1 decently with a small lesson investment, paladin a good choice (you can damn people without needing trans chivalry/trans devotion/trans rites/trans weaponry/trans seafaring etc).

Although if you just want to be mediocre in 1v1 and be a huge awesome badass in groups, serpent is fine. Backstab/double delph/snipe delph is a common assassin strategy that works on some people but rarely anyone I would worry about (Jhui, Earionduil, Rangor, any ashuran monk over level 35) and sniping is amazing in raids.

Nemutaur

Tesha said:

.. some people but rarely anyone I would worry about (Jhui, Earionduil, Rangor, any ashuran monk over level 35) and sniping is amazing in raids.

I'll take that backhanded compliment! Thanks

Kuy

Tesha said:

To be honest, there are very few serpents even with a lot of trans skills that are scary 1v1. It is not the skills that makes a serpent scary, it is whether or not they know how to use them that makes them scary. If you want to be able to 1v1 decently with a small lesson investment, paladin a good choice (you can damn people without needing trans chivalry/trans devotion/trans rites/trans weaponry/trans seafaring etc).

Although if you just want to be mediocre in 1v1 and be a huge awesome badass in groups, serpent is fine. Backstab/double delph/snipe delph is a common assassin strategy that works on some people but rarely anyone I would worry about (Jhui, Earionduil, Rangor, any ashuran monk over level 35) and sniping is amazing in raids.

I don't mind putting in the work to learn it properly!

Tesha

@Nemutaur you were counted in that! :P You have some pretty nifty strategies that remind me of fighting Mizik as a bard. Ashuran monks are terrifying in general.

Iocun

Cathy said:

Kuy said:

Hmm.  Is garrote based on weapon stats?

Yep, also your dexterity I think.

No, only weapon stats, and I think subterfuge skill, affect it.

As for skill learning priorities as a serpent, there are several options, depending on your preferred style.

Here some variants:

• Subterfuge snipe, survival clotting, vision farsight, inept venom: ~2000 lessons, leaving 1500 for hypnosis (mythical).
  
• Subterfuge trans, survival clotting, vision farsight, inept venom: ~2400 lessons, leaving 1100 for hypnosis (fabled).
• Subterfuge illusion, survival clotting, vision farsight, venom trans: ~2900 lessons, leaving 600 for hypnosis (virtuoso).
• Subterfuge illusions, survival trans, vision farsight, inept venom: ~2300 lessons, leaving 1200 for hypnosis (fabled).
• Subterfuge snipe, survival trans, vision farsight, inept venom: ~3200 lessons, leaving 300 for hypnosis (Gifted).

The reasoning behind these is:

• Clotting in survival is important if you want to survive. More survival is always helpful too. Trans survival (focus), allows you to stay more offensive in fights, which makes a big difference for a class like serpents that do somewhat depend on momentum.
• You want some sort of locating ability (farsight) for all-around utility, and it only costs about 60 lessons.
• Venom is pretty much an all-or-nothing deal. You can fight fine with inept venom (I think you get shrugging at inept too, yes?), you'll just have to get your venom vials from someone (which can be a bit of a hassle, but other classes have to do that too), and can't use scytherus/camus/nechamandra/notechis/loki. The latter three aren't important anyways. Scytherus/camus are useful, but not paramount, as you can still go for locks without them. Some medium skill level in venom isn't very helpful, as without transcretion you can't secrete instantly for bites, nor secrete on your dirk for dstabs, so you still rely on venom vials.
• Subterfuge is generally our most useful and ability-rich skill, but how far you go there depends a lot on what you wish to do. For hunting, you want as much as possible, since it affects garrote (I think). For 1v1 you want illusion, but you don't strictly need anything higher than that. If you also want to engage in group combat, you want snipe, or go all the way and get phase too.
• Hypnosis is a very gradual skill. You don't really need any of its individual abilities after what you already get at inept (Impatience), but the chance for a hypnosis attempt to succeed depends on your hypnosis rank, so the more you have the better. That means that there are no definite numbers of lessons that would be especially beneficial to put in it. It's just simply: the more lessons in it, the better for 1v1.

I'd say among my suggestions above, variant 4 is the most powerful in 1v1, variant 3 being a good alternative with a bit worse defences (survival) and problems against high-vision targets (lower hypnosis), yet much less upkeep hassle due to trans venom. Variant 5 is more optimised for group combat, leaving 1v1 a bit weak. Variant 1 and 2 are both more balanced mixtures between 1v1 and group combat, 1 giving you a bit better hypnosis in 1v1 settings, 2 giving you more overall utility/mobility with phase. 

My personal pick would probably be variant 3 for pure 1v1, variant 5 for pure group PvP, and variant 2 for a mixture, but as you can see, it's all relatively variable and dependent on personal desires. There's no skill that you absolutely must have transed.

Mizik

@Kui I wouldn't not Trans Subterfuge right away. With Phase being the carrot on the stick, I'd be terrified of always being 3 beers away from waking up with Omni trans skills and two Thoth's Fangs.

Just ask @Jhui how many SoA's he has - directly proportional to his drinking habits.

Jhui

you wouldn't know mizik, other than the time that i am typing this response

BECAUSE YOU BAILED ON ME

Mizik

Will totally Te'o you into tailgating pics bby I sry.

It'll be like you're still here!

Iocun

Daeir said:

I don't see how you can go for locks without scytherus unless you spend twenty years chasing balance, honestly.

I rarely use scytherus for locking, really. In the vast majority of my fights, I only use scytherus for the kill after a lock.

Kuy

Iocun said:

Cathy said:

Kuy said:

Hmm.  Is garrote based on weapon stats?

Yep, also your dexterity I think.

No, only weapon stats, and I think subterfuge skill, affect it.

As for skill learning priorities as a serpent, there are several options, depending on your preferred style.

Here some variants:

• Subterfuge snipe, survival clotting, vision farsight, inept venom: ~2000 lessons, leaving 1500 for hypnosis (mythical).
  
• Subterfuge trans, survival clotting, vision farsight, inept venom: ~2400 lessons, leaving 1100 for hypnosis (fabled).
• Subterfuge illusion, survival clotting, vision farsight, venom trans: ~2900 lessons, leaving 600 for hypnosis (virtuoso).
• Subterfuge illusions, survival trans, vision farsight, inept venom: ~2300 lessons, leaving 1200 for hypnosis (fabled).
• Subterfuge snipe, survival trans, vision farsight, inept venom: ~3200 lessons, leaving 300 for hypnosis (Gifted).

The reasoning behind these is:

• Clotting in survival is important if you want to survive. More survival is always helpful too. Trans survival (focus), allows you to stay more offensive in fights, which makes a big difference for a class like serpents that do somewhat depend on momentum.
• You want some sort of locating ability (farsight) for all-around utility, and it only costs about 60 lessons.
• Venom is pretty much an all-or-nothing deal. You can fight fine with inept venom (I think you get shrugging at inept too, yes?), you'll just have to get your venom vials from someone (which can be a bit of a hassle, but other classes have to do that too), and can't use scytherus/camus/nechamandra/notechis/loki. The latter three aren't important anyways. Scytherus/camus are useful, but not paramount, as you can still go for locks without them. Some medium skill level in venom isn't very helpful, as without transcretion you can't secrete instantly for bites, nor secrete on your dirk for dstabs, so you still rely on venom vials.
• Subterfuge is generally our most useful and ability-rich skill, but how far you go there depends a lot on what you wish to do. For hunting, you want as much as possible, since it affects garrote (I think). For 1v1 you want illusion, but you don't strictly need anything higher than that. If you also want to engage in group combat, you want snipe, or go all the way and get phase too.
• Hypnosis is a very gradual skill. You don't really need any of its individual abilities after what you already get at inept (Impatience), but the chance for a hypnosis attempt to succeed depends on your hypnosis rank, so the more you have the better. That means that there are no definite numbers of lessons that would be especially beneficial to put in it. It's just simply: the more lessons in it, the better for 1v1.

I'd say among my suggestions above, variant 4 is the most powerful in 1v1, variant 3 being a good alternative with a bit worse defences (survival) and problems against high-vision targets (lower hypnosis), yet much less upkeep hassle due to trans venom. Variant 5 is more optimised for group combat, leaving 1v1 a bit weak. Variant 1 and 2 are both more balanced mixtures between 1v1 and group combat, 1 giving you a bit better hypnosis in 1v1 settings, 2 giving you more overall utility/mobility with phase. 

My personal pick would probably be variant 3 for pure 1v1, variant 5 for pure group PvP, and variant 2 for a mixture, but as you can see, it's all relatively variable and dependent on personal desires. There's no skill that you absolutely must have transed.

Oh man. This is so incredibly helpful! Thank you so much!

Iocun

You prick Mako twice in rapid succession with your dirk.

The attack rebounds back onto you!

 Paracelsus says: Hit Rebounding!   

You watch, in horror, as your left arm shrivels up and becomes useless.

You watch, in horror, as your right arm shrivels up and becomes useless.

Your action causes the sharp glass in your skin to cut into you.

3959[    ], 3922(90%), 97%, 76% cekdb 41.2%-[S][AB][la1 ra1 cor37 ~ 1](20:49:32.889)(apply mending to arms)

You conjure up your illusion towards Mako.

3959[    ], 3906(90%), 97%, 76% ckdb 41.2%-[S][AB][la1 ra1 cor37 ~ 1](20:49:32.904)

You take a drink from a black-walnut vial.

The elixir heals and soothes you.

5010[1051], 3906(90%), 97%, 76% ckdb 41.2%-[S][AB][la1 ra1 cor37 ~ 1](20:49:32.910)

A low growl echoes from a diminutive homunculus resembling Mako's throat, and blood begins flowing from your nose.

4656[-354], 3906(90%), 97%, 76% ckdb 41.2%-[S][AB] (clot 7)[la1 ra1 cor36 ~ 1](20:49:33.037)

You take out some salve and quickly rub it on your arms.

The bones in your left arm mend.

4656[    ], 3906(90%), 97%, 76% ckdb 41.2%-[S][AB][ra1 cor36 ~ 1](20:49:33.183)(touch tree)

You exert superior mental control and your wounds clot before your eyes.

4596[ -60], 3906(90%), 97%, 76% ckdb 41.2%-[S][AB][ra1 cor36 ~ 1](20:49:33.323)

You exert superior mental control and your wounds clot before your eyes.

4536[ -60], 3906(90%), 97%, 76% ckdb 41.2%-[S][AB][ra1 cor36 ~ 1](20:49:33.328)

You exert superior mental control and your wounds clot before your eyes.

4476[ -60], 3906(90%), 97%, 75% ckdb 41.2%-[S][AB][ra1 cor36 ~ 1](20:49:33.332)

4416[ -60], 3906(90%), 97%, 75% ckdb 41.2%-[S][AB][ra1 cor36 ~ 1](20:49:33.337)

4356[ -60], 3906(90%), 97%, 75% ckdb 41.2%-[S][AB][ra1 cor36 ~ 1](20:49:33.342)

4296[ -60], 3906(90%), 97%, 75% ckdb 41.2%-[S][AB][ra1 cor36 ~ 1](20:49:33.347)

4236[ -60], 3906(90%), 97%, 75% ckdb 41.2%-[S][AB][ra1 cor36 ~ 1](20:49:33.352)

You touch the tree of life tattoo.

4236[    ], 3906(90%), 97%, 75% ckdb 41.2%-[S][AB][ra1 cor36 ~ 1](20:49:33.481)

Bit later:

Focusing inward, you purge your body of afflictions.

The bones in your right arm mend.

So, can anybody explain why tree didn't cure my right arm there?

Tesha

Maybe it tried to cure vitrify and could not?

Iocun

Hrm, possibly. But that would seem like a bug then.

Makarios

Fixed.

Exelethril

How long do the "Nairat/Hugalaz/Eihwaz/etc" runes on runeblades last for? Is it necessary to sketch those runes along with Lagua/Laguz/Lagul before runeblading? Just realized I was sparring Narcos yesterday without pre-runing them since I was testing with one of those odd runes(Eihwaz) quite awhile ago, I figured there just wasn't a proc message.

Anedhel

It's a bit erratic, but they last close to the same amount that Runeblading does. But, they can be on weapons after empowerment fades, for some reason (they never flare if Runeblading's not up).

If you sketch them in the arena, they won't carry over.

You sketch them after you empower a weapon. Eihwaz gives a proc message.

Siana

What's the healing/salve/smoking balance? What's the balance on doublestab?

Antonius

From memory:
Herb (I assume this is what you mean by healing) is ~1 second. Salves vary, but most are, if I recall correctly, ~1 second as well; restoration is considerably longer at ~4 seconds. No balance for smoking. Healing balance (for Priests using the Healing skill) is, I believe, three seconds.

Doublestab time varies quite a lot, depending on traits, your dexterity and whether or not you're using an artefact dirk. This has all been covered pretty recently here: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/1570/serpent-thievery-buff#latest (I think that's the correct thread, at any rate)

Simoln

Herb/mineral balance is 1.5.

Non-restoration salve balance is 1.

Restoration balance is 4.

No smoking balance.

Dstab speed depends on your dex, dirk, and I think Subterfuge skill (not sure, probably not). See the various threads about serpent combat for more detail.

Jovolo

Herb balance is 1.6. 

Simoln is correct with all other numbers. (Smoking balance can instead be interpreted as having a maximum of 10 smokes per filled pipe, which then requires the pipe to be refilled. You must be on balance/equilibrium and have at least one arm must not be crippled, or broken in any way).