Quick Combat Questions

Arador

I would not be opposed to a 240 speed cap on rapiers (runes included) but reducing rapier damage would be a better move along with rescaling the damage better with health so low health people do not simply get wasted in 5 DSL's. I have no issue with a DSL that can be infinitely tanked, Knights have other kill methods through breaks, riftlocks, Vivisect, DSB and Damnation. Just make it hurt enough to matter and for DSB to remain viable.

Anedhel

By tankable, I assume you mean if someone's shielding and using rebounding and whatever other little tricks are out there to stop DSL? Otherwise, I disagree with you completely. If you stand there letting someone fuck you up with a pair of swords, you deserve to die.

Jovolo

What Arador said. Though current speed isnt all that bad. You dont need to reduce limb damage when reducing physical damage of dsl also, just change how the damage stat actually interacts with cutting dmg.

Arador

Of course within reason. Being able to stand there and swallow straight DSL damage forever means that you will not be able to get them lower on health for the DSB to work. Some hindering, shielding involved for sure. I would be happy if rebounding was deleted actually.

But one should not be required to shield every 3rd DSL because you are about to die. Or to shield over and over again for a minute just to catch up a bit.

Anedhel

Probably not, no. Scaling should definitely be looked at.

Athrax

I'm really not seeing the problem with rapiers.  The only times I ever kill anyone with just dsl damage with rapiers (And I have very high damage rapiers, 20 str with fury)  Is when they allow me to break a few limbs and keep them prone long for a bit.  I don't really agree with a speed cap, since to get below 1.9 you need some pretty fast and pretty low damage rapiers.   Are people really having problems dying to damage from rapier DSLs?  Is that really a thing?

Eld

Athrax said:

I'm really not seeing the problem with rapiers.  The only times I ever kill anyone with just dsl damage with rapiers (And I have very high damage rapiers, 20 str with fury)  Is when they allow me to break a few limbs and keep them prone long for a bit.  I don't really agree with a speed cap, since to get below 1.9 you need some pretty fast and pretty low damage rapiers.   Are people really having problems dying to damage from rapier DSLs?  Is that really a thing?

I typically have to run a lot from runies, because often just stalling my offense and keeping up shield and rebounding isn't enough to let my sipping keep up with their damage. 

Athrax

Runies with rapiers, though?   I'm not saying you're wrong, but I really don't see people running from me very often, and I seriously doubt that the fact that I don't use fury until I'm ready to disembowel makes that much of a difference.   I could be wrong, of course, but I'm just not seeing it.   People I can see having to run from a lot... occies, serpents, Ashuran monks with arties, runewardens with axe/scimitar and hugalaz runeblades...  but a runewarden with rapiers?  I'm honestly just not seeing it, and no, I'm not trying to disagree just to disagree, I literally don't have people complain about my damage much, even with dual soulpiercers.

Hell, fighting Strata, who is an Atavian... I have to run from him more often than he runs from me, and same with most of the monks in the Ashura, and that's also fullplate runicarmour vs leather.

I'm not at all saying that you guys aren't making sensible arguments, but I do think you're casting the net a lot wider than it should be.  Are you counting hugalaz runeblades? 

Anedhel

If you don't have trans avoidance and a good mount (or its equivalent), decent armor or some other kind of damage reduction, and no arties, a runie with 16 STR and 80+ damage rapiers'll fuck you up really, really fast, if they know what they're doing. But, like I said, I'd prefer damage upped and speed lowered. Some classes SHOULD hurt.

Penwize

@Athrax, do you stack curare/prefarar when going for damage? That sensitivity stacks up a lot, there are plenty of people who can't handle it.  That's on top of just the base DSL damage from good rapiers (or soulpiercers, which hurt like a bitch).

Eld

Athrax said:

Runies with rapiers, though?   I'm not saying you're wrong, but I really don't see people running from me very often, and I seriously doubt that the fact that I don't use fury until I'm ready to disembowel makes that much of a difference.   I could be wrong, of course, but I'm just not seeing it.   People I can see having to run from a lot... occies, serpents, Ashuran monks with arties, runewardens with axe/scimitar and hugalaz runeblades...  but a runewarden with rapiers?  I'm honestly just not seeing it, and no, I'm not trying to disagree just to disagree, I literally don't have people complain about my damage much, even with dual soulpiercers.

Hell, fighting Strata, who is an Atavian... I have to run from him more often than he runs from me, and same with most of the monks in the Ashura, and that's also fullplate runicarmour vs leather.

I'm not at all saying that you guys aren't making sensible arguments, but I do think you're casting the net a lot wider than it should be.  Are you counting hugalaz runeblades? 

Yes, rapiers, that's the default. Huga procs so rarely that it doesn't make a noticeable difference, I think. 

Xer

They proc often enough for that one has to be careful even in the upper yellow areas of health to make sure you don't get hit for 2.8k damage in one dsl with double Hugalaz procs >.>

Granted, it was Kardal (quite artied) who hit me for that much, but that was without sensitivity.

Antonius

Runewarden is the worst, but any Knight with high damage and reasonably fast rapiers can put the hurt on a lot of people, and adding in artefacts just makes it worse. Rapiers make it possible to stick all of the venoms that increase your damage - sensitivity, darkshade, euphorbia - in addition to not dealing bad damage themselves, and hitting quickly. I am, admittedly, incredibly artied, but I can destroy a lot of people very, very quickly with doubleslash damage and venom usage, and that would be much worse if I was a Runewarden.

If you have Soulpiercers and people aren't complaining about your damage being ridiculous, you're either doing it wrong or you're only ever fighting very artied people of particular classes.

Athrax

@Antonius - I'm probably just doing it wrong.
@Penwize - I don't normally go for damage kills.  I am pretty much always going to go for the dsb, I give myself bonus points if I can stick stupidity for a bit for the chuckles before the end.
@Xer - Last time I fought Kardal, He was artied out the ears, with a lvl 3 axe/scimitar combo if I remember correct.  Yes, that's a lot of damage.

Also, I don't use hugalaz runeblades, which could be part of it as well.  Or maybe everyone is just that much better than me.   I'm gonna go sulk in a corner for a while.

Anedhel

For the record, hugalaz will never double proc.

Penwize

Sticking stupidity can backfire on you if it's near your finisher, since stupidity proccing on balance can make them touch shield or leave when they ordinarily wouldn't, slowing you down at a potentially crucial moment.  Otherwise, why not use damage venoms before a DSB to stack more predamage to ensure the DSB gets the kill?

Antonius

Xer said:

They proc often enough for that one has to be careful even in the upper yellow areas of health to make sure you don't get hit for 2.8k damage in one dsl with double Hugalaz procs >.>

Granted, it was Kardal (quite artied) who hit me for that much, but that was without sensitivity.

Double Hugalaz procs shouldn't be possible, I thought? Unless that change was reverted; I don't pay too close attention to Runelore changes.

Xer

Ah, good to know. All I remember was going from 3.7k health, to sub 1k health and went WTF FLY FLY FLY FLY GTFO haha

Athrax

Penwize said:

Sticking stupidity can backfire on you if it's near your finisher, since stupidity proccing on balance can make them touch shield or leave when they ordinarily wouldn't, slowing you down at a potentially crucial moment.  Otherwise, why not use damage venoms before a DSB to stack more predamage to ensure the DSB gets the kill?

Dsb gets the kill.   If not, I can usually switch to my axes to finish them off before they stand (Numbing monks, a few dragons).  I have a pretty specific set of venoms I use during the DSB breaks that seems to work pretty well for me.

Anedhel

Here's an obvious question, but the answer might contain a lot of your problem with damage- are you using mastery all the time? Tons of people forget to.

Jovolo

Yeah. That guy has level 3 axes and a level 3 strength artifact, I think. Double Hugalaz hasn't been a thing for a while, but his damage would definitely do that anyway. 

Also, Knight damage is over the top right now, due mostly in my opinion to its largely flat damage nature. It's peanuts to a Dragon, but disgusting to a Logosian (which really should be a reasonable entry level at a mid-tier; Knights coming along with 80+ damage weapons dsl'ing at <2 seconds fark that right up, discounting euphorbia, hugalaz, death aura, demons, falcon, and whatever else you want to add that they have additional access to). I have faith in Makarios doing a good job with it, and can't wait.

Athrax

I never said I had a problem with damage.

Anedhel

Well, with not trashing most people you come across with soulpiercers! Regarding Jovolo's comment, yes, you're right. It's an issue of scaling, to my eyes, though.

Antonius

@Penwize: Depends on the opponent, to a certain extent. I generally expect not to be able to use any damage venoms for at least two of the three breaking doubleslashes, just because I need those to be doing very specific things. Admittedly I also don't need pre-damage for my disembowels to kill the majority of opponents, and for those I do I'm probably getting enough from the unaugmented doubleslash damage, falcon and potentially a Demons tick or two.

Athrax

Anedhel said:

Well, with not trashing most people you come across with soulpiercers! Regarding Jovolo's comment, yes, you're right. It's an issue of scaling, to my eyes, though.

Well, I did say I'm probably not doing it right.  I never claimed to be any good.

Zephyros

Ignore what everyone said and remember the following:

1) Your skill level doesn't matter

2) If you don't have your IRL weight in arties some classes just dont work

3) Don't plan on fighting the top tier people because they'll make you want to quit.

4) Someones system is better then yours, learn to break it.

5) Never, ever...ever ever ever ever take advice from me.

Best of luck

Borran

Zephyros said:

Ignore what everyone said and remember the following:

1) Your skill level doesn't matter

2) If you don't have your IRL weight in arties some classes just dont work

3) Don't plan on fighting the top tier people because they'll make you want to quit.

4) Someones system is better then yours, learn to break it.

5) Never, ever...ever ever ever ever take advice from me.

Best of luck

The blunt and brutal accuracy of 1-4 makes 5 seem incorrect.

Josoul

Learning the proficiency of a weapon makes missing with it less frequent or also increases speed?

If it increases speed, for about how much?

Jacen

Makes missing a lot less frequent. I had assumed that speed was unaffected, but I don't really know.

Sena

Proficiency doesn't affect speed, only damage and accuracy.