Quick Combat Questions

Iocun

I think that's about true, yes.

Jovolo

Please bear with me.

I'll be the first to admit I've been out of combat for a long, long time now, and haven't ever really made an effort to get back into it despite my shows of um, "arrogance", here on the forums. I'm not exactly a good combatant nowadays, but I still know what I know from the amount of time I've been around/combating and well, okay. I never remember damage being the huge issue I see it as today, and I remember the entry level for combat being much, much lower than what it is today. I'm going to post a log now of a little muck about earlier from when Anicetus and Wyverex were ganking me over and over in Thera, when the two got separated and Wyverex started hitting me alone. I rays'd for fun, yeah, but it's almost as long an eq/balance as most of my other abilities right now. So I guess my question from viewing this log back over after I escaped and from when you view is... what max health do you have to have now to enter combat without dying in ~10 - 20 seconds to straight damage from fairly average Knights (Who I have the most problem with)? I also see a problem against Bard's and Blademaster's, and Monk's are easier to deal with momentum-wise (As in, I can keep up momentum usually) despite their high burst damage.

Additional notes: I'm an intelligence spec'd Occultist with Simulacrum up, decentish armour, and an SoA. I'm level 78 and have 3400 max health. I have to be intelligence spec'd, as my offence is ridiculously slow if I go for con instead. Yes, I could aim to use offence as a defensive weapon, but clumsiness is very easily cured against me as all you need to do is eat kelp. My ents attack randomly, so I can't immediately kelp stack unless I'm very luck, and a person can always just use tree if they actually get stacked with clumsiness, so it's not really that much of a way around it unless I can pair clumsiness/lethargy with paralysis

This isn't to spark flaming, and there is no ulterior motive or implied negative jab hidden anywhere in this post. I'm really just curious on what everyone thinks about Knight damage right now, and at what health can people realistically get involved with combat nowadays.

Oh yeah, log: http://pastebin.com/rm5LjbgB

But just for notes, basically I find myself getting hit by almost 1k in every fight I've had with knights, bards and the like, at a speed of at least two seconds. The DPS is like 3,000hp every 4 seconds without sensitivity, not including falcon/hugalaz. Sip/moss balance is what, 5 seconds?

Iocun

Can't really answer the health question. Wyverex does hurt more than the average knight in any case (which doesn't mean there aren't several others who hurt quite as much though).

Sylvance

Q: What is the rhythm of serpent combat? Like, monks combo, and BMs strike-slash.

Iocun

I prick people twice in rapid succession with my dirk.

Xith

Sylvance said:

Q: What is the rhythm of serpent combat? Like, monks combo, and BMs strike-slash.

Audio approximation of dstab/serpent combat.

Da-da-da-da-dum. Prick, prick. Prick, prick.

Strata

Jovolo said:

But just for notes, basically I find myself getting hit by almost 1k in every fight I've had with knights, bards and the like, at a speed of at least two seconds. The DPS is like 3,000hp every 4 seconds without sensitivity, not including falcon/hugalaz. Sip/moss balance is what, 5 seconds?

Monks and blademasters are much easier to deal with than runewardens for me. My max health is above 4500 and I have level 2 regen and level 2 sip rings, SoA, parry, etc. The damage still isn't manageable. Solution for me was: fight them on water if I can so the ground runes don't slow down my offense (which in turn slows down their fang speed 3000K damage bullshit). Only runies I will fight are people like @Athrax because he likes to go for more technical kills on me instead of hitting bashing macros or lunge whoring.

So to answer your original question - No... I don't think it matters. The damage is simply unmanageable unless maybe you're in d-form with over 9000HP - then maybe you'll survive 20 seconds instead of 10.

Achilles

Well if an unartied lower-leveled Occie with no sip ring, defensive artefacts could easily tank the damage of an artied Runewarden with likely amazing rapiers then we'd have a problem.  There's a benefit of bashing from Logosian to Dragon and its you get essentially a free level 3 bracelet.

Knights with good rapiers have an advantage in the low-mid tier level but some other classes scale better with artefacts and more complicated (yet reliable) setups at the higher end.

As for a number, I think once you get to 5500 health you don't die to lolwarden damage for most classes.

Rom

Question regarding artefact choice from this new Sentinel.
31271  a fire pendant                                                     You are level 80 (Logosian) and 79% of the way to the next level.
79155  a scrying bowl                                                    Health:       4179 / 4179     Mana:         3423 / 3423
89201  a pair of eagle's wings                                         Endurance:   18800 /18800     Willpower:   15200 /15200
173933  a ranger's bow                                                  Strength: 14  Dexterity: 12  Constitution: 14  Intelligence: 11        (Strength spec maybe sub-optimal.)               
248032  an ivory peryton         
326387  a featureless ice figurine                                   Current Handaxe: (71/156/248)
342202  a Brooch of the Tempest                                   Current Traits: Nimble / Robust (+1 Con) / Sawbones (limbprobe)
384475  a pair of Mayan Bracelets    
384910  a hunter's belt         
385118  a glittering ring of vitality
412722  an Aldar talisman    
415648  a Shield of Absorption  
447710  a ring of flying 
467412  a polished marble pipe        

Alright, I have a good amount of credits right now and I'm looking to buy my last round of artefacts. Potential choices I see:
Lv2 sip ring: Tried and true, but I really feel tanky enough in spars and such with my SoA and Concoctions sip with decent armour, barkskin, and all my hindering.
Lv3 axe: The new stats on this thing are really legit at (106/216/242) it would be a 6 speed downgrade for 35(!) damage and 60(!) hit. Would still be throwing at ~1s and of course the added fun of getting to customize it.
Bow upgrade: Everyone knows about reflexed bows, but with the recent change it feels lackluster with all of the missing. Meteors are obviously sweet.
Mithril Spurs: Balanceless vaulting seems awesome, and I love the idea of never having to leave my mount behind. Seems a lot better with an artefact pet, though. Mine's just a SoW mount.
Buckawns: Seems like an obvious choice, but it feels kind of boring. Maybe that's dumb!

Not going to limit myself to 1 choice, and I'm interested in any opinions or additions. Particularly interested in thoughts on the Lv3 axe over my current one; I certainly have my own opinions on it but I'm still very new to the class and affliction-based offense in general. Figured I should consult the council before making any more big purchases. Thanks.

Forgot to mention I've only been doing 1 on 1 combat, but would like to be involved in group combat in one way or another in the future. Very little bashing, but I should probably get my level up.

Mizik

Wtf Knuckles bro. It will make the most massive, massive difference on your output. Aside from that I don't know how you play without ring of endurance. It is 100% worth the 350.

35 damage on handaxe won't make the hits noticeable, but it might shave a hit off prep.

Triak

Flowerpots.

Rom

Yeah, knuckles seem pretty damn good but is there a worse feeling than buying an artefact that you've traded in before? I feel like Merentesh is judging me. Ring of endurance seems like a good choice too, I kind of forgot it existed. This is why I posted!

Sidonia

Also taking artie suggestions, bard/dragon with level 1 bow and tuning fork.

Have around 1800 to work with. Haven't ever really had a problem with tanking/surviving, so I was leaning towards artie pet and diadem

Melodie

Diadem is boss for any heavy eq class. Seriously.

I love my diadem so damn much.

Mizik

Other than Harms, not much eq to benefit offensively.

Balancing devalues pet a bit, though Bard doesn't have a predictable length prep finisher - it's trial and repetition.

I'd probably opt for Collar and Lyre. Prismatic behind Harms is pretty magical.

Sylvance

Iocun said:

I prick people twice in rapid succession with my dirk.

Where does Hypnosis come into this?

Synbios

Kuy said:

So, bard seems really neat, though I don't think I'll be able to have three trans skills for a long, long while.  The three knight classes also look super cool, though I'm leaning toward Runewarden and Paladin.

What sort of weapon stats do people look for?  The forging system here is waaaaaay different than what I'm used to.  How tough is it to find combat-viable weapons?

@Kuy: ...of course, if you go Blademaster, you won't have a problem with nonsense like 'the perfect rapier'.

Just saying.

Iocun

Sylvance said:

Iocun said:

I prick people twice in rapid succession with my dirk.

Where does Hypnosis come into this?

All right, a more serious answer:

The closest thing to a "combo" for a serpent is a doublestab, followed by an illusion, followed by another illusion on regaining equilibrium. One can illusion off balance and under normal circumstances illusion is fast enough that you can do it twice in the time it takes for one dstab. (Exception would be having a really fast dstab speed due to a Thoth's fang and/or high dex without having something to speed up equilibrium for illusioning as well, in which case you'd only be able to illusion once.)

Bites can be used in place of doublestabs, either in the form bite/illusion or illusion/bite. They aren't used quite as frequently due to being overall slower for venom delivery, even more so due to having to deal with sileris. Bites can be useful though for delivering non-envenomable venoms like scytherus. Nevertheless, they rarely form the basis of a serpent's attack rhythm, but rather tend to be used occasionally between doublestabs. Some serpents also don't bite at all.

Hypnosis tends not to be used in such a regular fashion, but more in "bursts". The hypnotising itself takes no balance and can be done while you normally attack otherwise, so you could hypnotise like:

hypnotise sylvance

dstab sylvance (+ two illusions)

wait for balance

dstab sylvance (+ two illusions)

... repeat until hypnosis goes through or fails. If it fails, repeat the process again.

Whether you actually attack while hypnotising is optional. Some do it to keep up some level of momentum/hindering, others prefer to defend by shielding or similar, yet others don't actually do anything at all, seeing as they can't get their main attack started before getting the entire hypnosis done anyways. I mostly tend to use the time to test out my opponents herb priorities and reactions to certain illusions.

Once the target is hypnotised, you implant your suggesions, which takes equilibrium, so interrupts actual attacking. You can suggest all suggestions after each other, which would completely halt your offence, or throw in a dstab or so sometimes inbetween. Either way, you won't be getting into full momentum, so if you -do- dstab it will more serve the purpose of hindering, or perhaps to make it less obvious to your opponent that you are currently suggesting.

Once the target is hypnotised and the suggestions are implanted, you seal the hypnosis. Then you can start your main offence (typically with dstab+illusions) and try to get your opponent in the position where you want to have him, before snapping at an opportune moment and getting the hypnosis to start coming into effect. Preferably, this snap will be timed in such a way that the hypnosis afflictions you really want to be stuck can't be cured immediately. If impatience is your first hypnosis affliction, you don't want it to hit while your opponent has herb balance and is otherwise free to cure it, but would prefer to time it in such a way that, for example, it hits right after he ate another herb.

Then you continue stabbing/biting until your opponent is locked/dead.

Knowing when precisely to snap can be the trickiest thing about timing, because we want to be sure that our crucial hypnosis afflictions (like impatience) won't be cured right away. Venom afflictions we can give back immediately if cured, hypnosis afflictions not, so if someone cures impatience, we might have to start all over again, depending on what our goal is. It is thus crucial that things like rebounding don't interfere with our main hypnosis afflictions hitting and giving them a free pass to cure them. Of course there are other factors like shielding or hindering which are less controllable, but that's just luck in the end. There is a lot of luck involved in serpent combat.

Sylvance

Iocun said:

Here's the answer to your question, Sylvance. Sorry I teased you first, but it's really just a sign of my unbridled affection for you.

Thanks!!

Makarios

To address the knight question:

Don't quote me on this, but  I suspect dsl will get a pretty thorough looking at when weapons get reevaluated. There are a ton of issues with the way a lot of weapons function when you get into the extreme stat ranges (both low and high).

Anedhel

Makarios said:

To address the knight question:

Don't quote me on this, but  I suspect dsl will get a pretty thorough looking at when weapons get reevaluated. There are a ton of issues with the way a lot of weapons function when you get into the extreme stat ranges (both low and high).

I fucking hope so. I look forward to the DSL re-work

Jovolo

Begone, disgusting damage, be gone.

Anedhel

I'm actually hoping for more ouch, less speed >_>

Jovolo

Leave

Anedhel

Quit yer bitchin', it's not that bad!

Arador

On damage I agree. DSB could be upped a bit if normal damage is brought down to acceptable levels or at least made to more realistically scale with health. Speed I hope does not get nerfed as limb breaks are kind of a Knight's bread and butter.

Strata

Arador said:

On damage I agree. DSB could be upped a bit if normal damage is brought down to acceptable levels or at least made to more realistically scale with health. Speed I hope does not get nerfed as limb breaks are kind of a Knight's bread and butter.

If you're a knight who eats bread and butter and not "lol look wut i can do!"

Anedhel

Still, damage doesn't scale well upwards, and there really should be a cap on DSL somewhere.

Athrax

On speed, or damage?  I'm fine with scaling back damage, but also not... because that would effect limb damage as well.  This is a tricky one all around, honestly.

I definately think it's ridiculous that a runewarden can double prefarar battleaxes with hugalaz and pretty much one-shot people.  I think rapier damage is fine where it is, but in an RP sense... it would be nice to be able to use something other than rapiers to actually hinder and set up breaks effectively. 

Anedhel

Oh, yes. A speed cap on DSL. It shouldn't ever really dip below 1.8-1.9s, and even that's a little silly.