Extermination and Vivification

Tesha

Aegoth said:
If the Admin really WANT Mhaldor to drive people to stop logging in and quit the game in order to stop this war, then you're right, they made exactly the most appropriate response

This isn't how conflict/war works. You are two teams playing the same game. The goal isn't to get the other team to stop playing. It's to play against each other and have fun doing it. If they want to keep playing the conflict but you think your faction is ten times stronger than theirs, maybe there are other ways to play the conflict besides "drive people to stop logging in". Especially since Mhaldor just recently became a bit stronger with a population spike. Rhetorical question, do you want other factions to treat yours this way when your surge of retirees gets bored and retires to another game/city? Do you really want to play a game where other players consider victory making the other team want to stop playing? This is a very unhealthy mindset for the game as a whole, and I would encourage you to re-think it.

Ryzeth

You'd have more luck smashing your head against a brick wall, than trying to get Aegoth to fix his toxic attitude.

Farrah

I mean, I want Eleusis to surrender as much as anyone (so we can war with Mhaldor), but Mhaldor definitely didn't go about things the best way. There is a reason we haven't declared war on Mhaldor yet. We know no matter what we do, we can't win unless they agree to terms, so we're politely waiting so they'll cooperate with our war.

War is based on consent in Achaea. It's weird from a story perspective, sure, but the alternative is having lots of angry people because tangible loss is constantly forced on them, or everyone just hopping to the winning faction because the losing one is too frustrating.

Eleusis has been probably as good as any faction would be in terms of willingness to agree to terms after being "griefed." It just wasn't enough because Mhaldor had a goal to reach without a real plan to get Eleusis to agree to it other than "beat them until they submit" which doesn't really work.

Proficy

Farrah said:

I mean, I want Eleusis to surrender as much as anyone (so we can war with Mhaldor), but Mhaldor definitely didn't go about things the best way. There is a reason we haven't declared war on Mhaldor yet. We know no matter what we do, we can't win unless they agree to terms, so we're politely waiting so they'll cooperate with our war.

War is based on consent in Achaea. It's weird from a story perspective, sure, but the alternative is having lots of angry people because tangible loss is constantly forced on them, or everyone just hopping to the winning faction because the losing one is too frustrating.

Eleusis has been probably as good as any faction would be in terms of willingness to agree to terms after being "griefed." It just wasn't enough because Mhaldor had a goal to reach without a real plan to get Eleusis to agree to it other than "beat them until they submit" which doesn't really work.

Haha no they have not... there offer to stop the war was. We will unenemy 2 citizens so they can enter the city. And that they will LET US win the effigy next time its up for grabs...
I dont know but your on some other sh*t it you think that is anywhere near terms for what we set out for. 

There was an offer for certain brave souls to offer there individual life as an offer for us to stop.. but all in all, they have not been willing to negotiate for our terms at all. Its been "you need to change your demands to what i find acceptable"... followed by forum complaining.

And lets point out if they would of taken my very very first offer. Non of this would of escalated.. and what happened... we got forest defs to stop hitting us anyways.. sucks they are so stubborn, but now the offer got changed to something else they are more than capable of offering but still refuse.

Proficy

And the best part is. Depending on who you speak to about it in eleusis... none of them know whats going on completely. Ive had to have the same conversation over and over again every time i speak to one of them that wants to talk.

Farrah

I didn't say they agreed to your terms, just that they were willing to agree to terms of some kind and admit defeat. There's no way to force people to agree to any terms at all, and I'm not sure Mhaldor would agree to those terms in Eleusis's situation either.

Also, a lot of times people really fail to take advantage of resources available. We have awesome god staff who can make things happen beyond what mortal players can do themselves. There's no need to agree to "let Mhaldor win the effigy." Offer the effigy itself and ask the admin to transfer it and its xp bonus. I don't see why they wouldn't do that (but I guess I could be wrong).

Exelethril

Rangor said:

Gavriil said:

Xaden said:

In reality, this entire conflict really advocates for the renaissance, such as it was. It goes to show that it's not overly healthy to have a faction that pulls in different directions. If the entire of Eleusis were on the same page from the start they'd not have gotten so royally boned and either would have won by sheer strength of number (and that autoLoS) or at least been able to pull out with a bit more pride.

As it stands, however, you had 50% or less of the city pushing for further conflict throughout and the remainder trying to avoid it and feeling hard-done-by. 

I'd imagine these changes will allow for more equal rooting when it comes to conflict that will enable what is essentially three different factions (Mdor, LoSis, and GreenCyrene) to get what they want out of the game without being excessively griefy/griefed.

Except Eleusis was more unified before the renaissance....  so had the renaissance not happened, there is a good chance Eleusis would still be as unified as it was before it happened.  

We really weren't 

I think Mhaldor and Targ do well because they have a strict ideology which they follow and there isn't any room to break the Constitution due to popularity votes. It feels like 3 years worth of effort and ideological progress (started by Alrena during her term as Speaker) were gradually undone in the past few months just because it wasn't popular with the Eleusian playerbase. These kind of shifts were obviously disheartening for the PK-heavy/more "serious" population of Eleusis, which have mostly left.

I think if Eleusis were to ever be reworked for unification purposes, some measures have to be put into place to ensure that there's a common line everyone treads down and even if the majority strays from it, (out of personal beliefs/convenience) it isn't acceptable, or it will eventually become Shallam 2.0.

Cailin

I would not be averse to a Nature Divine waking, if but for a moment, and drawing that line.

edit: My personal dream is of an Eleusis that is combat centered, but yet doesn't exclude the more pacifist Nature-lovers. Like, the leadership would say to them, "This is not what we believe, but as long as you adhere to certain rules, you may walk that path." Leaving, of course, no room for bickering about what we officially do and do not believe.

Naoma

I will say this as a grove user. When you exterminate a certain percentage of rooms, grove flow,return, and summon do not work. When you cleared 90% of northreach I couldn't do anything in my grove but walk to it and imbue and hope for the best. so mechanically while you whine about it  being over powered ect, it really isn't you all just want to cry about something being evened out because now you lose some upper hand. The only reason you were winning is when you were coming in 18+ versus like 8-9 of us all at once. so yes eventually a lol piss off was going to happen, especially with the sheer volume of rooms you extermed. If you want to point the blame bullshit point it at your necromancers. Had they not extermed over 500+ rooms in less than 24 hours maybe the change never would have happened. 

Lyrin

Cailin said:

I would not be averse to a Nature Divine waking, if but for a moment, and drawing that line.

edit: My personal dream is of an Eleusis that is combat centered, but yet doesn't exclude the more pacifist Nature-lovers. Like, the leadership would say to them, "This is not what we believe, but as long as you adhere to certain rules, you may walk that path." Leaving, of course, no room for bickering about what we officially do and do not believe.

Join the mobile infantry Eleusian Rangers and save the world.   Service guarantees citizenship.

Would you like to know more?

Klendathu

Lyrin said:

Cailin said:

I would not be averse to a Nature Divine waking, if but for a moment, and drawing that line.

edit: My personal dream is of an Eleusis that is combat centered, but yet doesn't exclude the more pacifist Nature-lovers. Like, the leadership would say to them, "This is not what we believe, but as long as you adhere to certain rules, you may walk that path." Leaving, of course, no room for bickering about what we officially do and do not believe.

Join the mobile infantry Eleusian Rangers and save the world.   Service guarantees citizenship.

Would you like to know more?

-perk-

Lyrin

You will be city enemy #1

Naoma

And to answer @Proficy giving a forest goes against everything Eleusis stands for of course you would get told hell no. C'mon coming here to try to claim how "generous" you are IC is a friggin joke. So yeah continue on with your day. Cause no one would agree to that nor would you if Eleusis demanded you give up the isle ect ect. Soooo on that I have things to do like making commissions and stuff.

Ryzeth

Please stop saying ect. It's etc. It stands for et cetera, not ec tetera.
 
Flow and return also work in ANY forest room, not just forest rooms that are in the same area as your grove. So yeah it is a little dumb. Idk about summon, been a while since I've had groves. Let's not forget the retarded nature of portability, either. Or the fact you can still portal people to your grove for safety, even better when you have concealment up.

Naoma

Ryzeth said:

Please stop saying ect. It's etc. It stands for et cetera, not ec tetera.
 
Flow and return also work in ANY forest room, not just forest rooms that are in the same area as your grove. So yeah it is a little dumb. Idk about summon, been a while since I've had groves. Let's not forget the retarded nature of portability, either. Or the fact you can still portal people to your grove for safety, even better when you have concealment up.

I have tested this, portability is VERY limited on what you can and cannot do with it. Flowing and returning wont work if the majority of the forest your grove is in is exterminated I also tested this. It gives a line similar to the weak cries of the forest prevent you from travelling. I don't have the exact line as immediately after I was attacked and died. Summon I assume wont work though hard to test when most rooms are extermed. You cannot summon or flow to an extermed room, so you are arguing with a current forestal on what can and cannot be done, I am speaking from experience when I say it.

Ryzeth

It should be noted that a few abilities will not work in a temporary grove.
These are:
   Channel      Sever     Guardian      Sharing
   Hive         Forestbinding

Ya super limited lol. You use those abilities a lot in combat.

Nyderrasethi

Naoma said:

I will say this as a grove user. When you exterminate a certain percentage of rooms, grove flow,return, and summon do not work. When you cleared 90% of northreach I couldn't do anything in my grove but walk to it and imbue and hope for the best. so mechanically while you whine about it  being over powered ect, it really isn't you all just want to cry about something being evened out because now you lose some upper hand. The only reason you were winning is when you were coming in 18+ versus like 8-9 of us all at once. so yes eventually a lol piss off was going to happen, especially with the sheer volume of rooms you extermed. If you want to point the blame bullshit point it at your necromancers. Had they not extermed over 500+ rooms in less than 24 hours maybe the change never would have happened. 

Looking at logs we generally win even if the odds are even. We also tend to win even when you raid us with more than we have defenders at the time. In the 2 IC years I've been keeping track of tanks and stuff you guys haven't had a successful detonation and we've had about 10 or so

Alrena

Gavriil said:

Rangor said:

Gavriil said:

Xaden said:

In reality, this entire conflict really advocates for the renaissance, such as it was. It goes to show that it's not overly healthy to have a faction that pulls in different directions. If the entire of Eleusis were on the same page from the start they'd not have gotten so royally boned and either would have won by sheer strength of number (and that autoLoS) or at least been able to pull out with a bit more pride.

As it stands, however, you had 50% or less of the city pushing for further conflict throughout and the remainder trying to avoid it and feeling hard-done-by. 

I'd imagine these changes will allow for more equal rooting when it comes to conflict that will enable what is essentially three different factions (Mdor, LoSis, and GreenCyrene) to get what they want out of the game without being excessively griefy/griefed.

Except Eleusis was more unified before the renaissance....  so had the renaissance not happened, there is a good chance Eleusis would still be as unified as it was before it happened.  

We really weren't 

I dunno man, I mean I know some things had happened, but overall Eleusis felt closer back then, and honestly until this Mhaldor thing I didn't know if Eleusis could still pull together like it used to. We still gotta figure out what to do about the houses even now... Maybe that's what made it feel more unified, each house actually had a unique vision.... I dunno but something is missing since the ren. 

I know it feels that way, but that's honestly only because before the Renaissance, these things were just less visible. There was never a unified Eleusis, it's always been Sylvans and Sentinels and Druids fighting amongst each other, trying to exert their influence through the Village. This became blatantly obvious when a council of Sylvans, Druids and Sentinels all chose to become Scions when the Ren happened. Suddenly these people that were voted in were not okay, there was no 'balance', the Heartwood Kin -needed- a voice on the Council, even if their Houses didn't (and still haven't) developed a proper identity. Houses have always come before the Village, something that still hasn't changed.

Caelan

Tesha said:

Aegoth said:
If the Admin really WANT Mhaldor to drive people to stop logging in and quit the game in order to stop this war, then you're right, they made exactly the most appropriate response

This isn't how conflict/war works. You are two teams playing the same game. The goal isn't to get the other team to stop playing. 

To be fair, this IS exactly how war works...  though, not in this game

Torrent

Alrena said:

I know it feels that way, but that's honestly only because before the Renaissance, these things were just less visible. There was never a unified Eleusis, it's always been Sylvans and Sentinels and Druids fighting amongst each other, trying to exert their influence through the Village. This became blatantly obvious when a council of Sylvans, Druids and Sentinels all chose to become Scions when the Ren happened. Suddenly these people that were voted in were not okay, there was no 'balance', the Heartwood Kin -needed- a voice on the Council, even if their Houses didn't (and still haven't) developed a proper identity. Houses have always come before the Village, something that still hasn't changed.

The divide happened way before that, it really hasn't been the same since the Conclave incident. After that, it was like a permanent divide which Eleusis has never been able to bridge. There have been strides but it always comes down to the same divide

Sobriquet

Taryius said:

Tukio said:

Maybe you need to make a choice now then between exterming as many rooms as you want....or saving enough essence to be able to fight. Rejuve has a long recovery time like 10 seconds plus the fact you need ice. Not counting all the time afterwards to go back and replant as well on top of that.

Exterminate, the now equivalent of rejuv has an equally long channel time. Ice is dirt cheap, literally go kill one Mhun and you have the gold for your ice.

Listing all Ice commodities:

Commodity                           Price                    Quantity Available

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ice                                 110gp                    840

keneanung: Priority list changed to:

You rip into a mhun guard with your massive, deadly claws.

You have scored a CRUSHING CRITICAL hit!

You have slain a mhun guard, retrieving the corpse.

A small pile of sovereigns spills from the corpse.

8351h, 7070m, 22061e, 30250w cekdb-53.1- 16:03:05.013 0 0-0 0 0-0

You bleed 20 health.

8331h, 7070m, 22061e, 30250w cekdb-53.1- 16:03:05.651 0 0-0 0 0-0(-20h, 0.2%) 

You have recovered balance on all limbs.

You pick up 109 gold sovereigns.

Klendathu

Sobriquet said:

Taryius said:

Tukio said:

Maybe you need to make a choice now then between exterming as many rooms as you want....or saving enough essence to be able to fight. Rejuve has a long recovery time like 10 seconds plus the fact you need ice. Not counting all the time afterwards to go back and replant as well on top of that.

Exterminate, the now equivalent of rejuv has an equally long channel time. Ice is dirt cheap, literally go kill one Mhun and you have the gold for your ice.

Listing all Ice commodities:

Commodity                           Price                    Quantity Available

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ice                                 110gp                    840

keneanung: Priority list changed to:

You rip into a mhun guard with your massive, deadly claws.

You have scored a CRUSHING CRITICAL hit!

You have slain a mhun guard, retrieving the corpse.

A small pile of sovereigns spills from the corpse.

8351h, 7070m, 22061e, 30250w cekdb-53.1- 16:03:05.013 0 0-0 0 0-0

You bleed 20 health.

8331h, 7070m, 22061e, 30250w cekdb-53.1- 16:03:05.651 0 0-0 0 0-0(-20h, 0.2%) 

You have recovered balance on all limbs.

You pick up 109 gold sovereigns.

Dragonform for a mhun guard? Shame on you.

Sobriquet

Hey, these resolutions don't resolve themselves. 

Alrena

Torrent said:

Alrena said:

I know it feels that way, but that's honestly only because before the Renaissance, these things were just less visible. There was never a unified Eleusis, it's always been Sylvans and Sentinels and Druids fighting amongst each other, trying to exert their influence through the Village. This became blatantly obvious when a council of Sylvans, Druids and Sentinels all chose to become Scions when the Ren happened. Suddenly these people that were voted in were not okay, there was no 'balance', the Heartwood Kin -needed- a voice on the Council, even if their Houses didn't (and still haven't) developed a proper identity. Houses have always come before the Village, something that still hasn't changed.

The divide happened way before that, it really hasn't been the same since the Conclave incident. After that, it was like a permanent divide which Eleusis has never been able to bridge. There have been strides but it always comes down to the same divide

You're partially right, the Conclave event made the divide surface, but it certainly existed before it. It was just never a prominent issue until then. 

The problem that persists is that you have two kinds of people in Eleusis: the ones that want Nature to be a faction that actively furthers their cause, and the people that want to be peaceful forestals who live in harmony with Nature. It's honestly a shame we couldn't keep the Druid House separate for the latter people, I suspect both parties would have preferred that.

Not that these two can't coexist, it's just that they don't seem to want to. Not unless they have a strong, common enemy that they can't blame each other for. In that sense, Mhaldor is honestly a good thing for Eleusis. I'm not talking about just now, but every time they turned exterms up. Suddenly these scheming, plotting and gossipping bunch of forestals start working together, fighting together, improving together. It's really a great sight to see. But, when this conflict dies down, it'll most likely turn to infighting again sooner or later. Combatants go through a cycle of being adored as heroes and then condemned as savage warmongers.

Farrah

Sobriquet said:

Taryius said:

Tukio said:

Maybe you need to make a choice now then between exterming as many rooms as you want....or saving enough essence to be able to fight. Rejuve has a long recovery time like 10 seconds plus the fact you need ice. Not counting all the time afterwards to go back and replant as well on top of that.

Exterminate, the now equivalent of rejuv has an equally long channel time. Ice is dirt cheap, literally go kill one Mhun and you have the gold for your ice.

Listing all Ice commodities:

Commodity                           Price                    Quantity Available

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ice                                 110gp                    840

keneanung: Priority list changed to:

You rip into a mhun guard with your massive, deadly claws.

You have scored a CRUSHING CRITICAL hit!

You have slain a mhun guard, retrieving the corpse.

A small pile of sovereigns spills from the corpse.

8351h, 7070m, 22061e, 30250w cekdb-53.1- 16:03:05.013 0 0-0 0 0-0

You bleed 20 health.

8331h, 7070m, 22061e, 30250w cekdb-53.1- 16:03:05.651 0 0-0 0 0-0(-20h, 0.2%) 

You have recovered balance on all limbs.

You pick up 109 gold sovereigns.

It's settled. Rejuvenate is too expensive and vastly underpowered.

Coamenel

Alrena said:

Torrent said:

Alrena said:

I know it feels that way, but that's honestly only because before the Renaissance, these things were just less visible. There was never a unified Eleusis, it's always been Sylvans and Sentinels and Druids fighting amongst each other, trying to exert their influence through the Village. This became blatantly obvious when a council of Sylvans, Druids and Sentinels all chose to become Scions when the Ren happened. Suddenly these people that were voted in were not okay, there was no 'balance', the Heartwood Kin -needed- a voice on the Council, even if their Houses didn't (and still haven't) developed a proper identity. Houses have always come before the Village, something that still hasn't changed.

The divide happened way before that, it really hasn't been the same since the Conclave incident. After that, it was like a permanent divide which Eleusis has never been able to bridge. There have been strides but it always comes down to the same divide

You're partially right, the Conclave event made the divide surface, but it certainly existed before it. It was just never a prominent issue until then. 

The problem that persists is that you have two kinds of people in Eleusis: the ones that want Nature to be a faction that actively furthers their cause, and the people that want to be peaceful forestals who live in harmony with Nature. It's honestly a shame we couldn't keep the Druid House separate for the latter people, I suspect both parties would have preferred that.

Not that these two can't coexist, it's just that they don't seem to want to. Not unless they have a strong, common enemy that they can't blame each other for. In that sense, Mhaldor is honestly a good thing for Eleusis. I'm not talking about just now, but every time they turned exterms up. Suddenly these scheming, plotting and gossipping bunch of forestals start working together, fighting together, improving together. It's really a great sight to see. But, when this conflict dies down, it'll most likely turn to infighting again sooner or later. Combatants go through a cycle of being adored as heroes and then condemned as savage warmongers.

Accurate af. 

Nazihk

Tesha said:

Aegoth said:
If the Admin really WANT Mhaldor to drive people to stop logging in and quit the game in order to stop this war, then you're right, they made exactly the most appropriate response

This isn't how conflict/war works. You are two teams playing the same game. The goal isn't to get the other team to stop playing. It's to play against each other and have fun doing it. If they want to keep playing the conflict but you think your faction is ten times stronger than theirs, maybe there are other ways to play the conflict besides "drive people to stop logging in". Especially since Mhaldor just recently became a bit stronger with a population spike. Rhetorical question, do you want other factions to treat yours this way when your surge of retirees gets bored and retires to another game/city? Do you really want to play a game where other players consider victory making the other team want to stop playing? This is a very unhealthy mindset for the game as a whole, and I would encourage you to re-think it.

The problem is that this only works when the losing side is willing to accept the fact that they are losing and concede the battle accordingly. When they aren't, the system breaks down. That's what happened here. 

Melodie

It's something of a shame that Mhaldor is broadly painted as the people with mostly OOC assholes, but I guess that's what happens when Aegoth talks a lot in a thread. I don't put up overly serious posts much in forums these days, but just a few things:

The majority of us (there are always exceptions in every faction) not only want Eleusis to be having fun, but want them to be challenged to work together better as a faction. We don't have much control over either, but we try to help facilitate both. Cooper has said this in half a dozen threads now, but when all of this began, we consistently brought less numbers, and kept the engagements short. It's only when people of the faction, or the faction as a whole, continued to escalate matters that it got increasingly worse where we, as a faction, would look ICly weak for backing down (too much). We did try to draw lines, and pull reins on overly-excited people. This was not always successful.

Despite Aegoth's posting, our goal isn't to "grief" anyone. Please pardon the overly snarky ass that he is, I will attempt to put him in time out more often.

To Naoma and others of similar mindset: It's been clearly stated before, but just in case, the only thing Mhaldor asked for was for shrine sovereignty of the Black Forest and keeping it burned, and the latter we 100% expected to get bargained away (and we are perfectly okay with that... not that it's really very feasible at this point, though!). And yes, had we lost a war, we would have absolutely capitulated to such a demand from Eleusis (or any other faction that managed a solid win). It would be done with plenty of grumbling, but it'd be done, because we'd know we'd fucked up. I am somewhat confused how us preaching the Seven Truths in Eleusis would be deemed okay, but some shrines sitting around less so. But at this point, what's done is done.

Lastly, I think perhaps many in Eleusis don't know of or remember the last Mhaldor vs. Eleusis war, but I was in Eleusis at the time and remember it very well. And frankly, Mhaldor has played a lot nicer this time around than the last, including how long our engagements lasted, how much burning was done (there was a lot more last time), no consistent individual ganking at all hours of the day (hoo boy you should have seen Morzakai on Mhaldor's side), and our general defeat terms were far less than Ruth's. It's a shame both wars have basically had to end the same.

Overall this is the forums and I don't expect there to be a lot of truth or anything posted about how this or that faction is fair/unfair, but the dogpiling was getting a bit silly. We're evil IC, not OOC. We're not a perfect faction, but it's a constant work in progress. Constructive criticism is welcome, but please try to base it off facts, not assumptions. 

Titonus

Melodie said:

It's something of a shame that Mhaldor is broadly painted as the people with mostly OOC assholes, but I guess that's what happens when Aegoth talks a lot in a thread. I don't put up overly serious posts much in forums these days, but just a few things:

The majority of us (there are always exceptions in every faction) not only want Eleusis to be having fun, but want them to be challenged to work together better as a faction. We don't have much control over either, but we try to help facilitate both. Cooper has said this in half a dozen threads now, but when all of this began, we consistently brought less numbers, and kept the engagements short. It's only when people of the faction, or the faction as a whole, continued to escalate matters that it got increasingly worse where we, as a faction, would look ICly weak for backing down (too much). We did try to draw lines, and pull reins on overly-excited people. This was not always successful.

Despite Aegoth's posting, our goal isn't to "grief" anyone. Please pardon the overly snarky ass that he is, I will attempt to put him in time out more often.

To Naoma and others of similar mindset: It's been clearly stated before, but just in case, the only thing Mhaldor asked for was for shrine sovereignty of the Black Forest and keeping it burned, and the latter we 100% expected to get bargained away (and we are perfectly okay with that... not that it's really very feasible at this point, though!). And yes, had we lost a war, we would have absolutely capitulated to such a demand from Eleusis (or any other faction that managed a solid win). It would be done with plenty of grumbling, but it'd be done, because we'd know we'd fucked up. I am somewhat confused how us preaching the Seven Truths in Eleusis would be deemed okay, but some shrines sitting around less so. But at this point, what's done is done.

Lastly, I think perhaps many in Eleusis don't know of or remember the last Mhaldor vs. Eleusis war, but I was in Eleusis at the time and remember it very well. And frankly, Mhaldor has played a lot nicer this time around than the last, including how long our engagements lasted, how much burning was done (there was a lot more last time), no consistent individual ganking at all hours of the day (hoo boy you should have seen Morzakai on Mhaldor's side), and our general defeat terms were far less than Ruth's. It's a shame both wars have basically had to end the same.

Overall this is the forums and I don't expect there to be a lot of truth or anything posted about how this or that faction is fair/unfair, but the dogpiling was getting a bit silly. We're evil IC, not OOC. We're not a perfect faction, but it's a constant work in progress. Constructive criticism is welcome, but please try to base it off facts, not assumptions. 

...what about those of us ebil ooc, too...

Melodie

I mean, you're exempt from pretty much everything, Titonus. We all know this.