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Extermination and Vivification

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  • Krypton
    Krypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 2,377 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Not to mention only freshly harvested herbs can be planted. AB PLANTING says one hour, but for some reason I thought the timeframe is closer to a few minutes??

    So you can't just outrift 100 ginseng and replant 100 rooms with it.
    Lisbethae
  • Medi
    Medi Member Posts: 94
    Logging back onto the forums was a mistake... Good luck with your balancing act!
    ExxiaIniarYsela
  • Sena
    Sena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Laetetia said:
    Forest rooms take one ice to rejuvenate, which right now is running about 110 per. May not sound like much, but when you have to do 100 rooms, which we have had to do, it adds up fast.
    That's extremely cheap, unless you for some reason have one player funding every rejuvenation from their own pocket. A single slain guard costs more to replace than 200 exterminated rooms, if I'm remembering right.
  • Cailin
    Cailin Member Posts: 358 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I have used about 350 ice since this whole thing started, and I am not the only rejuvenator-- I'm not even on much after Serenade when these things usually happen. I am not saying whether this is a lot or not, nor do I have any idea how much ice has been used total. Just stating my numbers.

    I would guess it takes more like 1-2 hours per forest to rejuvenate and replant when there are a bunch of people, 2-3 hours when there are only a few. (Not including the fighting, of course.)
  • Wicella
    Wicella Member Posts: 184 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 2017
    Taryius said:
    I'd very much prefer if a commodity was required to reverse vivify. The way it is Vivify affects our Life Essence regeneration but requires life essence to clean? And life essence = sunlight...

    Life essence is required for so many of our combat skills where most of the combat skills in groves use Imbued sunlight which can restored at any time and not effected by vivify.

    Having a necromancer waste all their life essence on exterminating is so much more impactful than having a grove user waste their sunlight.

    Even with all that, I love the roleplay potential and that Eleusis can strike back now! More conflict = More combat! +1 to everyone who worked on such!
    Actually, it seems fairly even because sunlight is needed for many of Forestal's abilities too. For example, without sunlight you cannot use Cure/Remedy, Resurrection, your guardians, you cannot make a new hive, summon, gate, portal etc. Forestbinding itself requires 3000 sunlight the first time it is used in a 24 hour period, then 6000 the next time, 12000  third time etc.

    The major detriments of using more than half your stored sunlight on a single vivify is that you have to choose between vivifying and keeping up important defenses such as wildgrowth, panacea, and vigour.
    Aelyn
  • Marisella
    Marisella Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Unrelated but sort of related question... what happens if we run out of freshly harvested plants to replant? Do they go extinct?
  • Titonus
    Titonus Youngstown, OhioMember Posts: 238 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Marisella said:
    Unrelated but sort of related question... what happens if we run out of freshly harvested plants to replant? Do they go extinct?
    Looks like you guys should start switching to Minerals

  • Wicella
    Wicella Member Posts: 184 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 2017
    Marisella said:
    Unrelated but sort of related question... what happens if we run out of freshly harvested plants to replant? Do they go extinct?
    This isn't a problem we should be running into. Save burdock and nuts, all of the plants you find in forests can also be harvested from garden rooms, which as of now cannot be exterminated.

    Additionally the forests will regenerate plants on their own after a long period of time. I want to say somewhere in the range of 7-12 Achaean months, but I'm not sure the exact amount of time.
  • Exelethril
    Exelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Thanks for the much needed balance, Achaea development team. So tempted to start playing again but no time arrrrrgh.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
    ExxiaPrytheIniar
  • Cooper
    Cooper Member Posts: 5,808 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Wicella said:
    Taryius said:
    I'd very much prefer if a commodity was required to reverse vivify. The way it is Vivify affects our Life Essence regeneration but requires life essence to clean? And life essence = sunlight...

    Life essence is required for so many of our combat skills where most of the combat skills in groves use Imbued sunlight which can restored at any time and not effected by vivify.

    Having a necromancer waste all their life essence on exterminating is so much more impactful than having a grove user waste their sunlight.

    Even with all that, I love the roleplay potential and that Eleusis can strike back now! More conflict = More combat! +1 to everyone who worked on such!
    Actually, it seems fairly even because sunlight is needed for many of Forestal's abilities too. For example, without sunlight you cannot use Cure/Remedy, Resurrection, your guardians, you cannot make a new hive, summon, gate, portal etc. Forestbinding itself requires 3000 sunlight the first time it is used in a 24 hour period, then 6000 the next time, 12000  third time etc.

    The major detriments of using more than half your stored sunlight on a single vivify is that you have to choose between vivifying and keeping up important defenses such as wildgrowth, panacea, and vigour.
    You can regain sunlight 10000x more easily than we can regain essence, and you also have backup sunlight in your grove in case it's not daytime out. Not even comparable at all.

    TitonusReyson
  • Marisella
    Marisella Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 2017
    Wicella said:
    Marisella said:
    Unrelated but sort of related question... what happens if we run out of freshly harvested plants to replant? Do they go extinct?
    This isn't a problem we should be running into. Save burdock and nuts, all of the plants you find in forests can also be harvested from garden rooms, which as of now cannot be exterminated.
    Oh, whew. Okay!

    What do minerals taste like, @Titonus?
  • Wicella
    Wicella Member Posts: 184 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Cooper said:
    Wicella said:
    Taryius said:
    I'd very much prefer if a commodity was required to reverse vivify. The way it is Vivify affects our Life Essence regeneration but requires life essence to clean? And life essence = sunlight...

    Life essence is required for so many of our combat skills where most of the combat skills in groves use Imbued sunlight which can restored at any time and not effected by vivify.

    Having a necromancer waste all their life essence on exterminating is so much more impactful than having a grove user waste their sunlight.

    Even with all that, I love the roleplay potential and that Eleusis can strike back now! More conflict = More combat! +1 to everyone who worked on such!
    Actually, it seems fairly even because sunlight is needed for many of Forestal's abilities too. For example, without sunlight you cannot use Cure/Remedy, Resurrection, your guardians, you cannot make a new hive, summon, gate, portal etc. Forestbinding itself requires 3000 sunlight the first time it is used in a 24 hour period, then 6000 the next time, 12000  third time etc.

    The major detriments of using more than half your stored sunlight on a single vivify is that you have to choose between vivifying and keeping up important defenses such as wildgrowth, panacea, and vigour.
    You can regain sunlight 10000x more easily than we can regain essence, and you also have backup sunlight in your grove in case it's not daytime out. Not even comparable at all.
    I know I personally vivified about 5 rooms total and that was enough to drain my grove energy to 0 and my staff to 0, and that was with me evoking sunlight when it was daylight out. Therefore halting our ability to continue the conflict in that fashion unless another druid were to step forward. Overall seems to have balanced itself out pretty well.
    ExxiaNaomaCailinLiyane
  • Taryius
    Taryius Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 909 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited June 2017
    Cooper said:
    Wicella said:
    Taryius said:
    I'd very much prefer if a commodity was required to reverse vivify. The way it is Vivify affects our Life Essence regeneration but requires life essence to clean? And life essence = sunlight...

    Life essence is required for so many of our combat skills where most of the combat skills in groves use Imbued sunlight which can restored at any time and not effected by vivify.

    Having a necromancer waste all their life essence on exterminating is so much more impactful than having a grove user waste their sunlight.

    Even with all that, I love the roleplay potential and that Eleusis can strike back now! More conflict = More combat! +1 to everyone who worked on such!
    Actually, it seems fairly even because sunlight is needed for many of Forestal's abilities too. For example, without sunlight you cannot use Cure/Remedy, Resurrection, your guardians, you cannot make a new hive, summon, gate, portal etc. Forestbinding itself requires 3000 sunlight the first time it is used in a 24 hour period, then 6000 the next time, 12000  third time etc.

    The major detriments of using more than half your stored sunlight on a single vivify is that you have to choose between vivifying and keeping up important defenses such as wildgrowth, panacea, and vigour.
    You can regain sunlight 10000x more easily than we can regain essence, and you also have backup sunlight in your grove in case it's not daytime out. Not even comparable at all.
    Exactly. Forestals just have to press their alias over and over to regain sunlight, we have to actually kill people and secure their corpse. Something that doesn't happen if we're on the losing side of a fight... Even more this resource which we use to fight and could possibly be drained of after a solid defence is needed to restore out Isle so we can get this resource back!

    Rejuv doesn't need sunlight to work. Though, maybe it should be changed to require it.

    Edit: From our testing it looks like a necromancer with 100% essence can only do 8 rooms before they have 0. Seems way to easy for either side to just sit back and chill and nothing too bad will happen. Also, the costs may increase to the point that you won't be able to store enough sunlight in your staff to vivify but you can still fill that staff and continue using your combat abilities.
    TitonusExxia
  • Titonus
    Titonus Youngstown, OhioMember Posts: 238 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Marisella said:
    Wicella said:
    Marisella said:
    Unrelated but sort of related question... what happens if we run out of freshly harvested plants to replant? Do they go extinct?
    This isn't a problem we should be running into. Save burdock and nuts, all of the plants you find in forests can also be harvested from garden rooms, which as of now cannot be exterminated.
    Oh, whew. Okay!

    What do minerals taste like, @Titonus?
    poprocks

    BannCailinLiyane
  • Titonus
    Titonus Youngstown, OhioMember Posts: 238 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Also, since this is meant to bring this conflict to a balance, can necro users have fog-groves, for extermed rooms?

  • Tukio
    Tukio Member Posts: 33 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Maybe you need to make a choice now then between exterming as many rooms as you want....or saving enough essence to be able to fight. Rejuve has a long recovery time like 10 seconds plus the fact you need ice. Not counting all the time afterwards to go back and replant as well on top of that.
    Wicella
  • Taryius
    Taryius Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 909 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited June 2017
    Tukio said:
    Maybe you need to make a choice now then between exterming as many rooms as you want....or saving enough essence to be able to fight. Rejuve has a long recovery time like 10 seconds plus the fact you need ice. Not counting all the time afterwards to go back and replant as well on top of that.
    Exterminate, the now equivalent of rejuv has an equally long channel time. Ice is dirt cheap, literally go kill one Mhun and you have the gold for your ice.

    We go exterminate, Eleusis can sit still and not fight until we're crippled and then go spend 1k gold and 5 minutes undoing our work while we spend hours getting our life essence back. I suppose its the same way around with vivify, but I just don't like seeing either side being able to actively avoid the conflict with little cost.

    Edit: And yeah, replanting is a pain but when you'll be unlikely to see more than 10 rooms exterminated in a trip you can let the forest spread to those rooms no problem without losing a crap ton of herbs.
  • Nyderrasethi
    Nyderrasethi Member Posts: 91 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I've got a few questions about it and a few concerns arise. 

    1) In forests, grove users get the ability to use grove summon/flow to make use of defending the forests from said exterminations. What can you bring to the necromancers to allow them an equal footing in such matters? #fogsummon @Makarios looking at you #foggroves

    2) As Necromancers have 100% essence but grove users can constantly re-imbue their staff with light (A resource that regenerates much faster than essence) I see an imbalance in the costs for each side. What can you do to offset this balance? 

    3) Infamy is a factor when doing exterminations, it does -not- however seem to be a factor with vivification. I think this could be re-worked to either make infamy more balanced on both sides of the coin. Allows us to punish the perpetrators of these actions.

    4) #FogDefenses enemies of the fog shall be attack after vivification for same as forest defenses attack for. I'm guessing you can just do enemies of Sartan's order or Mhaldor or something to this effect, please don't make a Mhaldorian Oakstone, nobody wants that shit (Or High Warden for that matter).

    Might have more as ideas come to me!! 
    TitonusReysonAilea
  • Skye
    Skye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,171 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Titonus said:
    I'm not being an asshole, I'm just trying to understand from your perspectives, and maybe give ideas on expediating the process. Also, 
    Listing all Ice commodities:
    Commodity                           Price                    Quantity Available
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ice                                 110gp                    840
    Ice                                 115gp                    7
    Ice                                 115gp                    110
    Ice                                 117gp                    200
    Ice                                 118gp                    665
    Ice                                 120gp                    461
    Ice                                 124gp                    100
    Ice                                 128gp                    449
    Ice                                 130gp                    275
    Ice                                 135gp                    1000
    Ice                                 140gp                    200
    Ice                                 181gp                    2400

    I removed the stupidly priced ones, but, ice doesn't look very limited.
    impureice241600     a group of 2000 impureices
    Number of matching objects: 1 (out of 28 total)
    (ex) {8305hp|7265mp|37150e|32425wp}{cdbk|} |()| 1.5%XP (09:56:47.831)ir ice
    Glancing into your rift, you see:
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ices
    [ 1570] ice                    [ 5000] impureice
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    >_>

    I'm still sitting on all my ice because it was so expensive to mine and selling them even at 110 would still be a loss. Instead I just very slowly use them for waterwalking enchantments... one pair of boots at a time... 


    TitonusExxia
  • Taryius
    Taryius Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 909 @ - Epic Achaean
    I've got a few questions about it and a few concerns arise. 

    1) In forests, grove users get the ability to use grove summon/flow to make use of defending the forests from said exterminations. What can you bring to the necromancers to allow them an equal footing in such matters? #fogsummon @Makarios looking at you #foggroves

    2) As Necromancers have 100% essence but grove users can constantly re-imbue their staff with light (A resource that regenerates much faster than essence) I see an imbalance in the costs for each side. What can you do to offset this balance? 

    3) Infamy is a factor when doing exterminations, it does -not- however seem to be a factor with vivification. I think this could be re-worked to either make infamy more balanced on both sides of the coin. Allows us to punish the perpetrators of these actions.

    4) #FogDefenses enemies of the fog shall be attack after vivification for same as forest defenses attack for. I'm guessing you can just do enemies of Sartan's order or Mhaldor or something to this effect, please don't make a Mhaldorian Oakstone, nobody wants that shit (Or High Warden for that matter).

    Might have more as ideas come to me!! 
    Mhaldor Isle is pretty small so I see no issues with not having flow, but I wish we got more flavor for our fog now. 

    Another question @Makarios and @Nicola. Can the rooms in our city be vivified? We can't exterminate most of Eleusis as they aren't forests but our entire city is foggy.
  • Exxia
    Exxia Member Posts: 257 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 2017
    Aelyn said:
    Exxia said:


    Forest rooms are very cheap and quick to rejuvenate, was there any idea to maybe increase the costs for that or maybe a limit after the exterm for the room to be rejuv'ed? 
    This is a distinctly inaccurate statement, and reflection of the vast lack of knowledge of how time-consuming and monotonous rejuvenation is. In the face of 100+ exterminated rooms, you can only use reclamation regrowth about 7-8 times before someone at dragon level runs out of willpower. Ice is a limited commodity, and rejuvenation requires a good amount of mana each use. This does not even take into account the time out of our day that rejuvenation consumes. It is not cheap or quick to rejuvenate, especially on a scale of hundreds of rooms a day. I counter with the question, why is a commodity not required to reverse vivify? Though I look forward to seeing how these changes curb that particular problem, I still fear quite a few exterminations can occur before there is meaningful balance in time/resource loss.

    I have concerns about the limitations placed on forest defenses. I believe forest defenses should begin when a forest enemy (not everyone just enemies) lashes the vine network, which is obvious preparation to exterminate. What about initiating gravehands and other room-affecting actions that sets the room up to give forest enemies the advantage before even setting off forest defenses? Will forest defenses continue to work through exterminate, if they are given such a very short time span to actually be set off before the extermination process will complete?

    Thank you to administration for acknowledging this more than a decade long problem. I hope that you continue to work on the balance and borderline harassment issues we've had with extermination for years.
    no need to be insulting, but you're talking about something in a solo aspect which isn't done as much as cooperative rejuvenations. I've exterminated a lot of rooms, and I will say it's something when you go on an exterm run and an hour later those rooms are all rejuvenated.

    also all of you have ice, it's not expensive, and all of you have gold for it. It's not a rare commodity.

    I would like to see some sort of balance between exterm and vivify
    -I get that Eleusis has annoying spam when I exterm
    -but has forest defs (which made an improvement today)
    -has summon

    @Nicola my original presentation was that the Apostate could summon from fogged rooms. What do you think about this? Maybe some sort of ability like grove summon but only limited to the fogged rooms?
    TaryiusTitonus
  • Titonus
    Titonus Youngstown, OhioMember Posts: 238 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 2017
    It really is kind of weak sauce that they can summon us out of a room while exterminating and we have to actively locate whatever room they're in and walk flow ourselves to them.

    Ysela
  • Exelethril
    Exelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2017
    I think it'll be fairer if a commodity could be used to reverse vivify versus using a scarce resource like essence. 

    Giving necromancers the ability to regenerate essence akin to EVOKE would be a terrible idea though, since that removes the artificial cap on rooms exterminatable. Mhaldor Isle has a lot less rooms relative to forest rooms, while the number of players are somewhat equivalent.

    Alternatively, disallow necromancers from exterminating if they're below 50% essence but lessen the cost of exterminate so they can still exterminate 8 rooms with 50% of the current essence cost. This way, they won't accidentally run out of essence while going on an extermination run and still fight. (For perspective, 5 necromancers can still burn 40 rooms while being combat-able)

    Edit : Also, was the term vivify chosen sheerly for the irony of it? :D


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    TitonusExxiaLisbethae
  • Exelethril
    Exelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Iirc it's a choice between heart or soulspear from a corpse? I like the concept of opportunity cost versus the previous no cap, minimal effort/huge results exterm mechanics though.

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  • Exxia
    Exxia Member Posts: 257 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Thanks for the much needed balance, Achaea development team. So tempted to start playing again but no time arrrrrgh.
    The Master calls Exelethril...it's time to embrace your true Strength
  • Exelethril
    Exelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    My only masters are the SOA preliminaries/CFA exams/learning quant stuff after work for the foreseeable future, unfortunately. They are cruel masters :skull:

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    Iniar
  • Tahquil
    Tahquil Member Posts: 4,581 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I haven't seen it explicitly mentioned.
    Restoring forest = one class skill, one comm and people invested in a tradeskill

    Restoring isle = one class skill


    PrytheBoosteyaLisbethaeLiyane
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