Extermination and Vivification

Farrah

Aegoth said:

Ok, having had time to think about it, here are my thoughts on this change in mechanics:

1) I'm glad that forest defs are "gone" for the most part. This was a much needed change. Kudos for that.

2) This change was -very- poorly thought out in terms of timing, and in the context of what's going on in this war. Allow me to explain: Eleusis has been refusing, over and over, to admit defeat when they've been -clearly- beaten. This stubborn refusal has only exacerbated now that they've gained a cookie from the Admin to retaliate against Mhaldor. Now this conflict -isn't- going to end because of this mechanical change, and Mhaldor's going to continue to rain hell down on Eleusis, griefing them endlessly with raids, etc. We were on the verge of ending the conflict, and then this. What were you thinking of regarding ending this conflict @Makarios and @Nicola? This is only going to get worse from here on out with literally no end in sight because you gave a toy to people who are too stupid and stubborn to see when they're beaten, even when Proficy and I literally gave them a graceful exit via our post. 

3) The mechanics themselves are terribly imbalanced. If exterming forests gave a malus to grove abilities, I could probably justify the malus to necro users. Necro doesn't get fog summon/flow/other abilities that were balanced around extermination. You basically gave them the same ability with -none- of the balancing factors. 

4) This doesn't solve the problem of Exterm mechanics. People hated them, wanted them deleted. People hated the spam, hated feeling forced to defend, and hated spending time doing shit they didn't want to bother with. Exterm was universally abhorred. So the obvious solution was adding to that mechanic? I'm sorry, that doesn't follow any sort of logic I can mustre. I am generally always on board with changes the admin make, because they put heart and soul into it, and I can deeply appreciate the care that our Admin put into Achaea. But I have to say this in all honesty: @Makarios, @Nicola, this was a knee-jerk reaction change that went in a direction it shouldn't have. It would have been better to just delete Extermination and forest defs altogether (Like 99% of the Playerbase has been clamouring for (except Wicella)) than to have just made a bad problem even worse. 

Overall, this change makes me rather confused, ultimately upset... because I feel like the Admin just don't want this to end. At the end of the day, all this change did was extend this conflict even more... it cast cure3 on a horse with 1 hit point left. It has indefinitely extended a conflict that may have been about to resolve. A more clean, elegant solution that resolved into an END of the war would have been a good call if you were going to do anything. This... this is just asking for more pain and tears. Shrug.

I like you, Aegoth, but a lot of this criticism isn't very fair. Extermination was universally disliked as it was, but there are a number of people who advocated solutions such as the one implemented rather than outright deletion. Acting like the admin just did something without any thought or consideration for what players want means you don't actually read what others say they want (probably true).

Can't always please everyone, and to say 99% of the player base wanted deletion is just patently false.

Aegoth

My main point is that what they did is invariably extending this conflict even further. It's just going to be more and more grief, all because the admin decided to step in and do this, instead of doing something to end the conflict so we can move on to bigger, better things. 

Greoth

Haven't y'all been losing lately?

Taryius

I don't like the changes because I feel that they have so little impact and it almost encourages not fighting back on these things. With the ridiculous costs for both vivify and exterminate you'll never see more than a handful of rooms ever changed. The costs to repair these rooms are still so meaningless that you can sit back and not engage in conflict then spend a few seconds afk in each room and tada no harm done. 

Imagine if you could just ignore city raiders and after they leave spend 20s channeling to repair that rubbled room. The whole notion of tanks is that the room is blown for 4 days. 

It also seems like these knee jerk changes were implemented without thinking for the future. Right now Mhaldor is in a much better place than Eleusis, evident in what you guys consider griefing is (even though Eleusis had the tools to end all this). If Eleusis decided they wanted to bring three times our numbers in our off peak hours and go vivify our entire Isle with a huge group of grove users we'd be stuck doing nothing.

Take the same scenario into Eleusis, that small group of defenders could forestbind to slow the exterminations. Grove summon to delay them and pick people off, Grove flow to lone exterminators to gank them until they have split the enemy group up enough or trimmed them into a more reasonable fight.

In addition, there is no real effect on Exterminations, unless in mass (which we can't do now), on Eleusis. Losing 10 rooms of plants is never going to affect anything be it herb prices or ice prices where as losing 10 rooms on our Isle hits all our necromancers combat ability and ability to retaliate. You could rejuv all the forests and still be able to come back and vivify mhaldor Isle. But not the other way around.

I'm not going to go in and condemn anyone for making these changes, I'm sure they will sort themselves out over time and this sort of attack has a lot more roleplay potential than just deleting exterminations, but I can't say they are balanced either.

Sidenote - It's weird that vivify doesn't remove the fog but still weakens the Isle. Especially when the AB file for vivify says it removes the taint.. In reality it is just foggy plants like perfume on a pig. I know @Makarios explained that the fog is @Sartans essence and that is why, but still just looks funny.

Aegoth

Greoth said:

Haven't y'all been losing lately?

Maybe you need to read your city logs... oh wait, you quit 

Calira

Aegoth said:

Stuff

Calling your opponents 'stupid and stubborn' is hardly appropriate. Eleusis has no obligation to stroke your ego simply because Mhaldor currently has more PK might and the will to relentlessly pummel a far weaker faction into the ground by abusing their sole control over a limitless and one-sided punishment mechanic. You aptly demonstrated the fundamental flaws that made said mechanic universally terrible for half of those involved, and so the admins intervened in exactly the manner that was most appropriate: amending the mechanics to be far more fair, and allowing the ongoing conflict to continue on even terms instead of putting an end to it via deletion.

Greoth

Aegoth said:

Greoth said:

Haven't y'all been losing lately?

Maybe you need to read your city logs... oh wait, you quit 

I'm back actually.

Aegoth

Calira said:

Aegoth said:

Stuff

Calling your opponents 'stupid and stubborn' is hardly appropriate. Eleusis has no obligation to stroke your ego simply because Mhaldor currently has more PK might and the will to relentlessly pummel a far weaker faction into the ground by abusing their sole control over a limitless and one-sided punishment mechanic. You aptly demonstrated the fundamental flaws that made said mechanic universally terrible for half of those involved, and so the admins intervened in exactly the manner that was most appropriate: amending the mechanics to be far more fair, and allowing the ongoing conflict to continue on even terms instead of putting an end to it via deletion.

The only thing this change did is indefinitely prolong a conflict that's one-sided. Eleusis is going to continue getting destroyed and griefed, and now that the Admin gave them a tool to press the "circular conflict" button even more than they already are, it's just not going to end, because the -reality- is that they ARE too stupid and stubborn (accurate words, look up the definitions) to admit defeat when it's staring them straight in the face, and when we've given them several easy outs. If the Admin really WANT Mhaldor to drive people to stop logging in and quit the game in order to stop this war, then you're right, they made exactly the most appropriate response

Taryius

Calira said:

Aegoth said:

Stuff

Calling your opponents 'stupid and stubborn' is hardly appropriate. Eleusis has no obligation to stroke your ego simply because Mhaldor currently has more PK might and the will to relentlessly pummel a far weaker faction into the ground by abusing their sole control over a limitless and one-sided punishment mechanic. You aptly demonstrated the fundamental flaws that made said mechanic universally terrible for half of those involved, and so the admins intervened in exactly the manner that was most appropriate: amending the mechanics to be far more fair, and allowing the ongoing conflict to continue on even terms instead of putting an end to it via deletion.

I'd argue that having equal opportunity to attack doesn't mean they are more fair. I'd be all down if Eleusis lost their defences to exterminations (Forest defs completely, Grove Summon, Forestbinding) and got offensive capabilities from it (vivify). But as it is, the pros and cons for each are so heavily leaned towards Eleusis. 

Calira

Taryius said:

Calira said:

Aegoth said:

Stuff

Calling your opponents 'stupid and stubborn' is hardly appropriate. Eleusis has no obligation to stroke your ego simply because Mhaldor currently has more PK might and the will to relentlessly pummel a far weaker faction into the ground by abusing their sole control over a limitless and one-sided punishment mechanic. You aptly demonstrated the fundamental flaws that made said mechanic universally terrible for half of those involved, and so the admins intervened in exactly the manner that was most appropriate: amending the mechanics to be far more fair, and allowing the ongoing conflict to continue on even terms instead of putting an end to it via deletion.

I'd argue that having equal opportunity to attack doesn't mean they are more fair. I'd be all down if Eleusis lost their defences to exterminations (Forest defs completely, Grove Summon, Forestbinding) and got offensive capabilities from it (vivify). But as it is, the pros and cons for each are so heavily leaned towards Eleusis. 

This might be true, it might not be true - as others have said, Eleusis has to deal with far more space, and Mhaldor Isle is not a very big area to have to defend at all. I don't really have an opinion over whether or not Mhaldor is getting the short end of the stick. But even if they are, the current disadvantage that Mhaldor might be facing is not even in the same league of disadvantage that Eleusis faced just a couple of days ago. It might not be perfect now, but it's a hell of a lot better.

Taryius

Calira said:

Taryius said:

Calira said:

Aegoth said:

Stuff

Calling your opponents 'stupid and stubborn' is hardly appropriate. Eleusis has no obligation to stroke your ego simply because Mhaldor currently has more PK might and the will to relentlessly pummel a far weaker faction into the ground by abusing their sole control over a limitless and one-sided punishment mechanic. You aptly demonstrated the fundamental flaws that made said mechanic universally terrible for half of those involved, and so the admins intervened in exactly the manner that was most appropriate: amending the mechanics to be far more fair, and allowing the ongoing conflict to continue on even terms instead of putting an end to it via deletion.

I'd argue that having equal opportunity to attack doesn't mean they are more fair. I'd be all down if Eleusis lost their defences to exterminations (Forest defs completely, Grove Summon, Forestbinding) and got offensive capabilities from it (vivify). But as it is, the pros and cons for each are so heavily leaned towards Eleusis. 

This might be true, it might not be true - as others have said, Eleusis has to deal with far more space, and Mhaldor Isle is not a very big area to have to defend at all. I don't really have an opinion over whether or not Mhaldor is getting the short end of the stick. But even if they are, the current disadvantage that Mhaldor might be facing is not even in the same league of disadvantage that Eleusis faced just a couple of days ago. It might not be perfect now, but it's a hell of a lot better.

Why I said I'm sure everything will work itself out in time. Mhaldor Isle is small meaning we can just group up and go to the attackers. Eleusis should keep grove flow so they can group and instantly travel to the conflict. The other defenses, I can't 100% agree they should stick around.

Nyderrasethi

I mean, if Eleusis isn't losing, then why did we get 3 tanks including a level 2 on the same raid and slew nearly 100 guards. Only dying to the Guardian of Thorns because we had 50+ stacks of eye, and still almost killing him (He was at 9%).

I honestly think the griefing tactics of exterms/vivify will go away with the changes but I do echo the sentiments of others here that the Essence/Sunlight thing still remains an issue that must be remedied and would've just rather had the entire system removed to allow for more traditional conflict like shrines and raids.

Coamenel

Aegoth said:

Calira said:

Aegoth said:

Stuff

Calling your opponents 'stupid and stubborn' is hardly appropriate. Eleusis has no obligation to stroke your ego simply because Mhaldor currently has more PK might and the will to relentlessly pummel a far weaker faction into the ground by abusing their sole control over a limitless and one-sided punishment mechanic. You aptly demonstrated the fundamental flaws that made said mechanic universally terrible for half of those involved, and so the admins intervened in exactly the manner that was most appropriate: amending the mechanics to be far more fair, and allowing the ongoing conflict to continue on even terms instead of putting an end to it via deletion.

The only thing this change did is indefinitely prolong a conflict that's one-sided. Eleusis is going to continue getting destroyed and griefed, and now that the Admin gave them a tool to press the "circular conflict" button even more than they already are, it's just not going to end, because the -reality- is that they ARE too stupid and stubborn (accurate words, look up the definitions) to admit defeat when it's staring them straight in the face, and when we've given them several easy outs. If the Admin really WANT Mhaldor to drive people to stop logging in and quit the game in order to stop this war, then you're right, they made exactly the most appropriate response

You keep going on about Eleusis not wanting to admit defeat, but that's actually the only point on your list of terms that wasn't a real issue. You were offered the effigy as proof for your victory. More so the fact that you want us to go straight into divine mandate, black forest, to get our 'gracious' way out. 

Just like Mhaldor has argued that Eleusis can just "stop rejuvenating", Mhaldor could of course NOT bully the other players out of the game. Just because you don't like a change, doesn't mean you now need to demonstrate you level of immaturity by doing that. 

To use the exact same words you used against me: "quit crying pussy tears Aegoth". (I could repeat all the shit you threw against me, but I actually hope you live a happy life. No one should be so bitter and toxic irl)

Rangor

Aegoth said:

Ok, having had time to think about it, here are my thoughts on this change in mechanics:

1) I'm glad that forest defs are "gone" for the most part. This was a much needed change. Kudos for that.

2) This change was -very- poorly thought out in terms of timing, and in the context of what's going on in this war. Allow me to explain: Eleusis has been refusing, over and over, to admit defeat when they've been -clearly- beaten. This stubborn refusal has only exacerbated now that they've gained a cookie from the Admin to retaliate against Mhaldor. Now this conflict -isn't- going to end because of this mechanical change, and Mhaldor's going to continue to rain hell down on Eleusis, griefing them endlessly with raids, etc. We were on the verge of ending the conflict, and then this. What were you thinking of regarding ending this conflict @Makarios and @Nicola? This is only going to get worse from here on out with literally no end in sight because you gave a toy to people who are too stupid and stubborn to see when they're beaten, even when Proficy and I literally gave them a graceful exit via our post. 

3) The mechanics themselves are terribly imbalanced. If exterming forests gave a malus to grove abilities, I could probably justify the malus to necro users. Necro doesn't get fog summon/flow/other abilities that were balanced around extermination. You basically gave them the same ability with -none- of the balancing factors. 

4) This doesn't solve the problem of Exterm mechanics. People hated them, wanted them deleted. People hated the spam, hated feeling forced to defend, and hated spending time doing shit they didn't want to bother with. Exterm was universally abhorred. So the obvious solution was adding to that mechanic? I'm sorry, that doesn't follow any sort of logic I can mustre. I am generally always on board with changes the admin make, because they put heart and soul into it, and I can deeply appreciate the care that our Admin put into Achaea. But I have to say this in all honesty: @Makarios, @Nicola, this was a knee-jerk reaction change that went in a direction it shouldn't have. It would have been better to just delete Extermination and forest defs altogether (Like 99% of the Playerbase has been clamouring for (except Wicella)) than to have just made a bad problem even worse. 

Overall, this change makes me rather confused, ultimately upset... because I feel like the Admin just don't want this to end. At the end of the day, all this change did was extend this conflict even more... it cast cure3 on a horse with 1 hit point left. It has indefinitely extended a conflict that may have been about to resolve. A more clean, elegant solution that resolved into an END of the war would have been a good call if you were going to do anything. This... this is just asking for more pain and tears. Shrug.

Conceding defeat is something we have been willing to do the entire time. Don't blame us on proficy not accepting that as being enough. Also, if you feel you must -grief- Eleusis to end a conflict, the admin seriously needs a talk with you.

Rangor

Nyderrasethi said:

I mean, if Eleusis isn't losing, then why did we get 3 tanks including a level 2 on the same raid and slew nearly 100 guards. Only dying to the Guardian of Thorns because we had 50+ stacks of eye, and still almost killing him (He was at 9%).

I honestly think the griefing tactics of exterms/vivify will go away with the changes but I do echo the sentiments of others here that the Essence/Sunlight thing still remains an issue that must be remedied and would've just rather had the entire system removed to allow for more traditional conflict like shrines and raids.

Off-hour raiding of course. All the cool kids play on eu server. Timezone abusers all of you!

Xaden

I like it. Solid approach from the admin. Limits the immature and moronic sections of Mhaldor's ability to grief people while also making it possible for Eleusis to respond in a similar fashion.

I do agree that forest summon / binding / flow etc are all pretty horrible, but I don't agree at all that the answer to that is to give Mhaldor similar mechanics. 

That being said, I would like this conflict to end soon because a) As Aegoth points out, there are people in his faction that have literally no problem griefing the shit out of large swoths of the playerbase for an extended period of time.

And b) We want the opportunity to push their face in officially.

Alrena

I don't see why this conflict needs to continue with the same intensity. This is 100% what @Proficy set out from the very beginning to achieve: no more forest defenses (all the time). Honestly it's actually even better than his original demand, because now even those who don't want to be unenemied to the forests benefit from this, and we can't just be re-enemied the next time we are ordered to exterm.

Why should we care that Eleusis doesn't want to admit defeat at this point? Do we even -want- a cease fire? I sure don't. We can tone back down to regular conflict and use these mechanics to poke each other with a "C'mere and fight me!". That there are no real consequences means we don't have to feel forced to respond to huge numbers either. Just another way to start a border skirmish.

There's pros and cons to each side, but the most important thing is really that defense is very much OPTIONAL. 


Now let's just leave it as it is, we had our victory post, they had their obligatory "Lol no you didn't" post. Let's go fight Targ and start the new chapter of Griefers: the Griefening. Roles of victim and Griefer yet undecided.

Xaden

Alrena said:

I don't see why this conflict needs to continue with the same intensity. This is 100% what @Proficy set out from the very beginning to achieve: no more forest defenses (all the time). Honestly it's actually even better than his original demand, because now even those who don't want to be unenemied to the forests benefit from this, and we can't just be re-enemied the next time we are ordered to exterm.

Why should we care that Eleusis doesn't want to admit defeat at this point? Do we even -want- a cease fire? I sure don't. We can tone back down to regular conflict and use these mechanics to poke each other with a "C'mere and fight me!". That there are no real consequences means we don't have to feel forced to respond to huge numbers either. Just another way to start a border skirmish.

There's pros and cons to each side, but the most important thing is really that defense is very much OPTIONAL. 


Now let's just leave it as it is, we had our victory post, they had their obligatory "Lol no you didn't" post. Let's go fight Targ and start the new chapter of Griefers: the Griefening. Roles of victim and Griefer yet undecided.

Dibs griefer. Just let me train up my absolve-train first.

Valaria

Xaden said:

Alrena said:

I don't see why this conflict needs to continue with the same intensity. This is 100% what @Proficy set out from the very beginning to achieve: no more forest defenses (all the time). Honestly it's actually even better than his original demand, because now even those who don't want to be unenemied to the forests benefit from this, and we can't just be re-enemied the next time we are ordered to exterm.

Why should we care that Eleusis doesn't want to admit defeat at this point? Do we even -want- a cease fire? I sure don't. We can tone back down to regular conflict and use these mechanics to poke each other with a "C'mere and fight me!". That there are no real consequences means we don't have to feel forced to respond to huge numbers either. Just another way to start a border skirmish.

There's pros and cons to each side, but the most important thing is really that defense is very much OPTIONAL. 


Now let's just leave it as it is, we had our victory post, they had their obligatory "Lol no you didn't" post. Let's go fight Targ and start the new chapter of Griefers: the Griefening. Roles of victim and Griefer yet undecided.

Dibs griefer. Just let me train up my absolve-train first.

In a moment, @Sartan is probably jealous of @Proficy.

Xaden

In reality, this entire conflict really advocates for the renaissance, such as it was. It goes to show that it's not overly healthy to have a faction that pulls in different directions. If the entire of Eleusis were on the same page from the start they'd not have gotten so royally boned and either would have won by sheer strength of number (and that autoLoS) or at least been able to pull out with a bit more pride.

As it stands, however, you had 50% or less of the city pushing for further conflict throughout and the remainder trying to avoid it and feeling hard-done-by. 

I'd imagine these changes will allow for more equal rooting when it comes to conflict that will enable what is essentially three different factions (Mdor, LoSis, and GreenCyrene) to get what they want out of the game without being excessively griefy/griefed.

Tahquil

Mhaldor : AHA! SPEARS JABBY JABBY!!
Eleusis : Ow, Ow, please.. All we have is medics and bandages.
Mhaldor : NO! THE SPEARS ARE OURS. YOU NON-SPEAR PEOPLE JUST SUCK AND TAKE IT JABBY JABBY!
Gods :  Okay.. Eleusis you can have spears to.
Mhaldor : Oh shit...

Reyson

I still have no idea when Mhaldor started 'losing.' I haven't seen it happen yet

What time/day is the show?

Gavriil

I think -ALL- cities should get something like this.... every single last one. 

Cyrene - The Air of Neutrality 
Hashan - something cool with that purple stuff you guys got
Targossas - Holy Grounds
Ashtan - The Sphere of Chaotic influence (it's not really a sphere just the area around ashtan...) 

Idk I haven't slept yet. 

Ryzeth

I think we should NOT add anything more like this.


I'd love to see how the Cyrene one would play out, though. We're anti-combat, but we're gonna force neutrality on you whether you like it or not!

Then again knowing Cyrene they'd probably ban the usage of it

Gavriil

Xaden said:

In reality, this entire conflict really advocates for the renaissance, such as it was. It goes to show that it's not overly healthy to have a faction that pulls in different directions. If the entire of Eleusis were on the same page from the start they'd not have gotten so royally boned and either would have won by sheer strength of number (and that autoLoS) or at least been able to pull out with a bit more pride.

As it stands, however, you had 50% or less of the city pushing for further conflict throughout and the remainder trying to avoid it and feeling hard-done-by. 

I'd imagine these changes will allow for more equal rooting when it comes to conflict that will enable what is essentially three different factions (Mdor, LoSis, and GreenCyrene) to get what they want out of the game without being excessively griefy/griefed.

Except Eleusis was more unified before the renaissance....  so had the renaissance not happened, there is a good chance Eleusis would still be as unified as it was before it happened.  

Xaden

Gavriil said:

Xaden said:

In reality, this entire conflict really advocates for the renaissance, such as it was. It goes to show that it's not overly healthy to have a faction that pulls in different directions. If the entire of Eleusis were on the same page from the start they'd not have gotten so royally boned and either would have won by sheer strength of number (and that autoLoS) or at least been able to pull out with a bit more pride.

As it stands, however, you had 50% or less of the city pushing for further conflict throughout and the remainder trying to avoid it and feeling hard-done-by. 

I'd imagine these changes will allow for more equal rooting when it comes to conflict that will enable what is essentially three different factions (Mdor, LoSis, and GreenCyrene) to get what they want out of the game without being excessively griefy/griefed.

Except Eleusis was more unified before the renaissance....  so had the renaissance not happened, there is a good chance Eleusis would still be as unified as it was before it happened.  

You people should know by now that my opinions are not based on anything concrete ever and all words I say on here are actually directly from my sphincter.

Rangor

Gavriil said:

Xaden said:

In reality, this entire conflict really advocates for the renaissance, such as it was. It goes to show that it's not overly healthy to have a faction that pulls in different directions. If the entire of Eleusis were on the same page from the start they'd not have gotten so royally boned and either would have won by sheer strength of number (and that autoLoS) or at least been able to pull out with a bit more pride.

As it stands, however, you had 50% or less of the city pushing for further conflict throughout and the remainder trying to avoid it and feeling hard-done-by. 

I'd imagine these changes will allow for more equal rooting when it comes to conflict that will enable what is essentially three different factions (Mdor, LoSis, and GreenCyrene) to get what they want out of the game without being excessively griefy/griefed.

Except Eleusis was more unified before the renaissance....  so had the renaissance not happened, there is a good chance Eleusis would still be as unified as it was before it happened.  

We really weren't 

Gavriil

Rangor said:

Gavriil said:

Xaden said:

In reality, this entire conflict really advocates for the renaissance, such as it was. It goes to show that it's not overly healthy to have a faction that pulls in different directions. If the entire of Eleusis were on the same page from the start they'd not have gotten so royally boned and either would have won by sheer strength of number (and that autoLoS) or at least been able to pull out with a bit more pride.

As it stands, however, you had 50% or less of the city pushing for further conflict throughout and the remainder trying to avoid it and feeling hard-done-by. 

I'd imagine these changes will allow for more equal rooting when it comes to conflict that will enable what is essentially three different factions (Mdor, LoSis, and GreenCyrene) to get what they want out of the game without being excessively griefy/griefed.

Except Eleusis was more unified before the renaissance....  so had the renaissance not happened, there is a good chance Eleusis would still be as unified as it was before it happened.  

We really weren't 

I dunno man, I mean I know some things had happened, but overall Eleusis felt closer back then, and honestly until this Mhaldor thing I didn't know if Eleusis could still pull together like it used to. We still gotta figure out what to do about the houses even now... Maybe that's what made it feel more unified, each house actually had a unique vision.... I dunno but something is missing since the ren. 

Gavriil

Hell that's the main reason I joined Eleusis, because it felt like it was more together than the others... and no not on this guy...

Mathilda

As an aside, the line of argument that says, "Now I have to grief these people out of the game to win," is the reason why a considerable chunk of Achaea's playerbase have the opinion that "All Mhaldorians are toxic jerks OOC".