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Comments
Adding
Should just keep it to ice for both honestly. Same price for both sides
You greatly over estimate how much essence we get from hearts, over estimate how many people are going to be willing to die to give someone else 10% essence, and under estimate how much extermination costs to do.
For example, if one necromancer had an unlimited supply of hearts, they could exterminate -at the very most- exterminate 34 rooms before being unable to exterminate (exterminate at 35 rooms would cost 103% essence). This would take their initial 100% essence, plus approximately 150 dragon level hearts.
It's actually lop sided in the reverse way. Forestals can have unlimited sunlight during the day.
Plus, only a certain amount of sunlight can fit in a quarterstaff. Ideally, then, a groves user will evoke until full, use the sunlight for vivification, and then evoke sunlight again until full, rinse and repeat.
The point is that both sides have limitations that are possibly being glossed over by the opposite.
Changing the way to remove vivified rooms from extermination to something else would stop that issue of forest defences activitating for defending our Isle. Could also adjust it so to remove a vivified room you need two bone or three bone. Compared to the 1 ice that forestal rooms cost.
All just brainstorming I'm sure everything will work itself fair in time. But I feel right now its adjusted to the fact that Mhaldor has been stronger than Eleusis which will not always be the case. Just now we got vivified by twice our numbers (not complaining about that, happens to both sides) and we could do little but sit there, Eleusis would've been able to use summons to attempt to stop the vivifying or forestbinding or anything like that to help alleviate the lopsided fight.
It seems that it takes more than 25 seconds to vivify a room.
Is it really intended to take that long?
And how long does it take anyway?
From a Mhaldorian perspective, the jungles of Shala-Khulia were very special because they "had bowed to the majesty of Evil" and did not attack forest enemies (except one odd room near Shala-Khulia city, but I figure that was a bug). With the stroke of an OOC pen, this IC:ly unique situation is now greatly diminished in importance.
I would assume Eleusians aware of the history ascribe an equal importance to this particular forest, with notions of "never again" etc. likely playing a part in their unwillingness to back down on the Black Forest.
I suppose we will do what we always do with mechanical changes and handwave them away (a semblance of an explanation for why Mhaldor Isle is suddenly vulnerable would have been nice, though.) This change though, while likely mechanically good once kinks are ironed out and people get used to it, risks making the world less interesting.
(The silver lining from a world-building perspective is, I suppose, that the notion that it is Mhaldor against everyone and that we [as designated villains] always lose in the end, is reinforced through adding @Makarios and @Nicola to the list of people against us
EDIT: in short, this is a pretty big change mechanically. Big enough that it deserves an IC explanation.
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
gg
The very same Mhaldorians that would journal, afk or QQ when raided were out in full force for some much due revenge, empowered by a sudden wave of newcomers eager to impress their active Divine! And thus, the forests became the prime outlet of their rage - for the process was easy and the results were truly impressive. Every hour spent pressing their extermination alias, all the Eleusians without gag triggers wouldn't be able to play the game without sifting through a huge wall of spam and another hour would be spent cleaning up along with economic damage.
Terrible unsportman-like decisions were made on both sides until the secretive spirits of Nature - Makarios and Nicola, decided that enough grief and mechanic abuse was enough and dropped the nerfhammer on extermination and finally passed on the secret knowledge of vivification to the surprisingly resistant Eleusians. Thus, the game of Achaea ushered in a golden age with the scales of the Red/Green rivalry decisively balanced and the burden of unfairness lifted.
The end.
[/spoiler]
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A degree of suspension of disbelief is required with major mechanical changes of this nature. This won't be the first time and I very much doubt it will be the last.
I will note that vivification doesn't effect the fog: its the island itself. We didn't want to touch the fog because of it being Sartan's essence, its rather unlikely any mortal is going to have the ability to damage that. There are some messages about the fog moving on a vivify but they're intended as it reacting, not as the fog being damaged. Perhaps that wasn't clear enough.
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That's something I can roll with. I still wish there was more to explore ICly about this just because there's such a deep history with extermination vs. nature, but I understand mechanics tend to come first.
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
heh
1) I'm glad that forest defs are "gone" for the most part. This was a much needed change. Kudos for that.
2) This change was -very- poorly thought out in terms of timing, and in the context of what's going on in this war. Allow me to explain: Eleusis has been refusing, over and over, to admit defeat when they've been -clearly- beaten. This stubborn refusal has only exacerbated now that they've gained a cookie from the Admin to retaliate against Mhaldor. Now this conflict -isn't- going to end because of this mechanical change, and Mhaldor's going to continue to rain hell down on Eleusis, griefing them endlessly with raids, etc. We were on the verge of ending the conflict, and then this. What were you thinking of regarding ending this conflict @Makarios and @Nicola? This is only going to get worse from here on out with literally no end in sight because you gave a toy to people who are too stupid and stubborn to see when they're beaten, even when Proficy and I literally gave them a graceful exit via our post.
3) The mechanics themselves are terribly imbalanced. If exterming forests gave a malus to grove abilities, I could probably justify the malus to necro users. Necro doesn't get fog summon/flow/other abilities that were balanced around extermination. You basically gave them the same ability with -none- of the balancing factors.
4) This doesn't solve the problem of Exterm mechanics. People hated them, wanted them deleted. People hated the spam, hated feeling forced to defend, and hated spending time doing shit they didn't want to bother with. Exterm was universally abhorred. So the obvious solution was adding to that mechanic? I'm sorry, that doesn't follow any sort of logic I can mustre. I am generally always on board with changes the admin make, because they put heart and soul into it, and I can deeply appreciate the care that our Admin put into Achaea. But I have to say this in all honesty: @Makarios, @Nicola, this was a knee-jerk reaction change that went in a direction it shouldn't have. It would have been better to just delete Extermination and forest defs altogether (Like 99% of the Playerbase has been clamouring for (except Wicella)) than to have just made a bad problem even worse.
Overall, this change makes me rather confused, ultimately upset... because I feel like the Admin just don't want this to end. At the end of the day, all this change did was extend this conflict even more... it cast cure3 on a horse with 1 hit point left. It has indefinitely extended a conflict that may have been about to resolve. A more clean, elegant solution that resolved into an END of the war would have been a good call if you were going to do anything. This... this is just asking for more pain and tears. Shrug.
I feel like most of Aegoth's points were written either in blissful or willful ignorance of the rest of the posts in this thread.
/shrug