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Extermination and Vivification

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  • Cooper
    Cooper Member Posts: 5,783 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It should be ice, platinum, bone, or gems.

  • Saibel
    Saibel ChicagoMember Posts: 74 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Good change! Can sneak through forests now. :D
    Dragonknight tells you, "SAIBEL SAIBEL BO BAIBEL FE FI FO FABLE."
  • Torrent
    Torrent Member Posts: 320 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Cooper said:
    It should be ice, platinum, bone, or gems.
    Bone probably would go well with the undead of the Isle of Mhaldor
    WicellaTahquilBoosteyaHalos
  • Naoma
    Naoma Member Posts: 69 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 2017
    bone is still cheaper than ice though at 46 gp versus nearly 110 gp. 

    Adding
    Should just keep it to ice for both honestly. Same price for both sides 
    Lisbethae
  • Antidas
    Antidas Member Posts: 1,504 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    Naoma is right about Eleusis/forestals not ganking us when we are just walking through a forest.

    That did happen -very- frequently in the past, where forestals would sit 5-10 deep in groves just waiting to hit grove flow on anyone they saw walking through the forest. I'd say that this behaviour ended a very minimum of 5 years ago, if not longer than that. We don't get randomly attacked anymore.
    Like I said, I didn't think it happens much anymore. That said, my point was not how much it happens - my point is that they technically could, and it would be perfectly acceptable in the eyes of the administration according to the rules as they are currently set. Rather than wait for someone to decide to abuse the spirit of the rule so much as to get it changed, which is what tends to happen (see: mhaldor-eleusis conflict finally getting changes to the exterm system to give Eleusis some recourse), why not just change it now to prevent any potential griefing that could possibly happen.

    Ysela
  • Cooper
    Cooper Member Posts: 5,783 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Essence is extremely relevant.

    You greatly over estimate how much essence we get from hearts, over estimate how many people are going to be willing to die to give someone else 10% essence, and under estimate how much extermination costs to do.

    For example, if one necromancer had an unlimited supply of hearts, they could exterminate -at the very most- exterminate 34 rooms before being unable to exterminate (exterminate at 35 rooms would cost 103% essence). This would take their initial 100% essence, plus approximately 150 dragon level hearts.

    It's actually lop sided in the reverse way. Forestals can have unlimited sunlight during the day.

    SaibelKietSherazad
  • Wicella
    Wicella Member Posts: 184 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Naoma said:
    bone is still cheaper than ice though at 46 gp versus nearly 110 gp. 

    Adding
    Should just keep it to ice for both honestly. Same price for both sides 
    Cost of Bone would likely rise as the demand for bone went up since it would be needed to fix the isle. Likewise if both Mhaldor and Eleusis needed Ice there would be an increase in price for ice and the possibility of each city trying to buy out all the ice so the other can't fix their environment.
  • Mathilda
    Mathilda Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    If we're going to be nitpicky, then sunlight isn't technically unlimited during the day. Day lasts around 30 minutes. EVOKE SUNLIGHT costs around 3-4s eqbal, which means around 600 evokes if that's the only thing the groves-user does for the entire day cycle. 

    Plus, only a certain amount of sunlight can fit in a quarterstaff. Ideally, then, a groves user will evoke until full, use the sunlight for vivification, and then evoke sunlight again until full, rinse and repeat.

    The point is that both sides have limitations that are possibly being glossed over by the opposite.
     <3 
    Lisbethae
  • Taryius
    Taryius Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 896 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited June 2017
    I'd still prefer a commodity over essence. Also, when we try to exterminate vivified rooms we still all get alerted to the forest defences coming alive and although this has little mechanical value since vivified rooms aren't forests we still have 1 forest room on our Isle that starts attacking us... 

    Changing the way to remove vivified rooms from extermination to something else would stop that issue of forest defences activitating for defending our Isle. Could also adjust it so to remove a vivified room you need two bone or three bone. Compared to the 1 ice that forestal rooms cost.

    All just brainstorming I'm sure everything will work itself fair in time. But I feel right now its adjusted to the fact that Mhaldor has been stronger than Eleusis which will not always be the case. Just now we got vivified by twice our numbers (not complaining about that, happens to both sides) and we could do little but sit there, Eleusis would've been able to use summons to attempt to stop the vivifying or forestbinding or anything like that to help alleviate the lopsided fight.
  • Marv
    Marv Member Posts: 4
    I tried to test the vivify just a while ago:


    5461h, 7108m, 27105e, 33519w cexkdb-20:20:19.772-E|NE|S|Wpp
    (svof): System paused.
    curing off
    vivify
    All your reflections wink out of existence!
    You kneel, placing a hand upon the blighted ground of the Crimson Isle.
    (p) 5461h, 4891m, 27105e, 31481w cxkdb-20:20:28.009-E|NE|S|W
    EQUI IS BACK! E Q U I  I S  B A C K !
    [south - Cooper (1)]
    (p) 5461h, 4626m, 27105e, 31461w cexkdb-20:20:43.301-E|NE|S|W
    Cooper arrives from the south.
    [here - Cooper (1)]
    (p) 5461h, 4525m, 27105e, 31441w cexkdb-20:20:43.892-E|NE|S|W
    Cooper lets fly at you with a snap kick.
    You parry the attack with a deft manoeuvre.
    Cooper balls up one fist and hammerfists you.
    You parry the attack with a deft manoeuvre.
    Cooper balls up one fist and hammerfists you.
    You parry the attack with a deft manoeuvre.
    (p) 5461h, 4525m, 27105e, 31441w cexkdb-20:20:44.224-E|NE|S|W
    Cooper lets fly at you with a snap kick.
    He connects to the right leg!
    Cooper balls up one fist and hammerfists you.
    He connects to the right leg!
    Cooper balls up one fist and hammerfists you.
    He connects to the right leg!
    (p) 4363h, 4506m, 27105e, 31452w cexkdb-20:20:47.326-E|NE|S|W
    You feel your limbs stiffen and lock up in response to an unseen power.
    (p) 4363h, 4390m, 27105e, 31444w cexkdb-20:20:50.355-E|NE|S|W
    You shuffle your feet noisily, suddenly bored.
    (p) 4363h, 4375m, 27105e, 31441w cexkdb-20:20:51.696-E|NE|S|W
    You reel as your mind is viciously battered by a mental assault from Cooper.
    (p) 4745h, 4343m, 27105e, 31420w cexkdb-20:20:52.698-E|NE|S|W
    Cool mist brings the vibrant touch of Nature to refresh you.
    Your muscles unlock; you are no longer paralysed.
    (p) 4745h, 4343m, 27105e, 31420w cexkdb-20:20:52.901-E|NE|S|Wpp
    (svof): System unpaused.
    curing on
    (touch tree)
    You are no longer stunned.
    4745h, 4343m, 27105e, 31405w cexkdb-20:20:53.507-E|NE|S|W
    You straighten, your hand losing contact with the blighted earth.
    You touch the tree of life tattoo.
    You are patient once again.
    You focus your mind intently on curing your mental maladies.
    Your nerves suddenly calm down.
    (svof): The impatience earlier was actually an illusion, ignoring it.
    4745h, 4093m, 27105e, 31330w cexkdb-20:20:53.739-E|NE|S|W


    It seems that it takes more than 25 seconds to vivify a room.
    Is it really intended to take that long?
    And how long does it take anyway?
  • Torrent
    Torrent Member Posts: 320 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Ysela said:
    Mechanics aside, what does this mean for the world of Achaea?

    From a Mhaldorian perspective, the jungles of Shala-Khulia were very special because they "had bowed to the majesty of Evil" and did not attack forest enemies (except one odd room near Shala-Khulia city, but I figure that was a bug). With the stroke of an OOC pen, this IC:ly unique situation is now greatly diminished in importance.

    I would assume Eleusians aware of the history ascribe an equal importance to this particular forest, with notions of "never again" etc. likely playing a part in their unwillingness to back down on the Black Forest.

    I suppose we will do what we always do with mechanical changes and handwave them away (a semblance of an explanation for why Mhaldor Isle is suddenly vulnerable would have been nice, though.) This change though, while likely mechanically good once kinks are ironed out and people get used to it, risks making the world less interesting.

    (The silver lining from a world-building perspective is, I suppose, that the notion that it is Mhaldor against everyone and that we [as designated villains] always lose in the end, is reinforced through adding @Makarios and @Nicola to the list of people against us :'(  )

    EDIT: in short, this is a pretty big change mechanically. Big enough that it deserves an IC explanation.
    The Crimson war had some special purpose, the grey fog is still there and its a more permanent aspect of the struggle. This change is more of a chance for either side to have an aggressive stance against one another on a different level. It's not just Necromancers simply just exterminating but the forestals can now vivify the Island. It more gives it an equal footing in the daily struggle in attacking and defending.
  • Ysela
    Ysela Member Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 2017
    Torrent said:

    The Crimson war had some special purpose, the grey fog is still there and its a more permanent aspect of the struggle. This change is more of a chance for either side to have an aggressive stance against one another on a different level. It's not just Necromancers simply just exterminating but the forestals can now vivify the Island. It more gives it an equal footing in the daily struggle in attacking and defending.
    Yes. But why? Did Gaia wake up and whisper to the forests that they should be less aggressive and only defend themselves when attacked? Who taught forestals their new ability? It is the "unexplained" part of "ICly unexplained changes" that irks me.
    ExxiaCailin[Deleted User]
  • Rangor
    Rangor Member Posts: 3,308 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I sucked my staff and grove out of energy from pvp and like 3 vivify's today. PvP probably took most of it though. ^^ Balancing on cost looks alright so far, maybe drop the insane WP cost.
    image
    MorthifUtianimaLisbethae
  • Rangor
    Rangor Member Posts: 3,308 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Melodie said:
    I definitely feel this is a huge enough of a change (the fog had always been invulnerable except for Ourania's meteor before this) that it deserves some kind of IC explanation. I mean, it doesn't have to be a huge event or anything, but like... this change does send a particularly large wave as far as evil and lore goes.
    It is pretty huge.
    image
  • Cooper
    Cooper Member Posts: 5,783 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ysela said:
    Torrent said:

    The Crimson war had some special purpose, the grey fog is still there and its a more permanent aspect of the struggle. This change is more of a chance for either side to have an aggressive stance against one another on a different level. It's not just Necromancers simply just exterminating but the forestals can now vivify the Island. It more gives it an equal footing in the daily struggle in attacking and defending.
    Yes. But why? Did Gaia wake up and whisper to the forests that they should be less aggressive and only defend themselves when attacked? Who taught forestals their new ability? It is the "unexplained" part of "ICly unexplained changes" that irks me.
    We can easily spin it that the we have beaten the forest into submission :) After our year long assault, they have been broken and are terrified into provoking us further.

    gg

    YselaAileaSaibel
  • Kogan
    Kogan Member Posts: 423 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Marisella said:
    Unrelated but sort of related question... what happens if we run out of freshly harvested plants to replant? Do they go extinct?
    Wouldn't happen really considering you can have these types of rooms in housing in/out of the subdivision. So out there somewhere there should always be a fresh one to harvest and plant.
  • Exelethril
    Exelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    [spoiler]Once upon a time, the secretive spirits of Nature weeped at the relentless assault by a vengeful Mhaldorian horde on their text-forests, wrought with an abusable mechanic exclusive to Evil, on a bunch of mostly non-coms after a majority of the former Blackthorns and Reapers left in rebellion at the perceivedly oathbreaking Eleusian electorate.

    The very same Mhaldorians that would journal, afk or QQ when raided were out in full force for some much due revenge, empowered by a sudden wave of newcomers eager to impress their active Divine! And thus, the forests became the prime outlet of their rage - for the process was easy and the results were truly impressive. Every hour spent pressing their extermination alias, all the Eleusians without gag triggers wouldn't be able to play the game without sifting through a huge wall of spam and another hour would be spent cleaning up along with economic damage.

    Terrible unsportman-like decisions were made on both sides until the secretive spirits of Nature - Makarios and Nicola, decided that enough grief and mechanic abuse was enough and dropped the nerfhammer on extermination and finally passed on the secret knowledge of vivification to the surprisingly resistant Eleusians. Thus, the game of Achaea ushered in a golden age with the scales of the Red/Green rivalry decisively balanced and the burden of unfairness lifted.

    The end.
    [/spoiler]

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  • Cooper
    Cooper Member Posts: 5,783 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Entertaining words from someone who quit Eleusis cause he didn't want to deal with it.

    YselaTitonusSaibel
  • Exelethril
    Exelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Equally entertaining words from one of the past major QQers. I would have stayed if I had IC reasons to. The text-war in 2013 was open PK/more brutal, I have no qualms about fighting in uneven odds. 

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  • Torrent
    Torrent Member Posts: 320 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Maybe the effect of Ourania's meteor had lasting effects after its impact. Though initially got rid of the fog, with its presence over time it weakened the fog to where Nature had a chance to vivify, or its energy gathered enough in the ground to help move the fog. This is just off the top of my head or just some thoughts. That and would be awesome for Ourania! In my opinion  :3:):p<3
  • Melodie
    Melodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,185 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Torrent said:
    Maybe the effect of Ourania's meteor had lasting effects after its impact. Though initially got rid of the fog, with its presence over time it weakened the fog to where Nature had a chance to vivify, or its energy gathered enough in the ground to help move the fog. This is just off the top of my head or just some thoughts. That and would be awesome for Ourania! In my opinion  :3:):p<3
    This contradicts admin stance tho.

    Makarios said:

    A degree of suspension of disbelief is required with major mechanical changes of this nature. This won't be the first time and I very much doubt it will be the last.

    I will note that vivification doesn't effect the fog: its the island itself. We didn't want to touch the fog because of it being Sartan's essence, its rather unlikely any mortal is going to have the ability to damage that. There are some messages about the fog moving on a vivify but they're intended as it reacting, not as the fog being damaged. Perhaps that wasn't clear enough.

    That's something I can roll with. I still wish there was more to explore ICly about this just because there's such a deep history with extermination vs. nature, but I understand mechanics tend to come first.
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  • Aegoth
    Aegoth Member Posts: 2,936 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    sigh...
    YselaTaryius
  • Ahmet
    Ahmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Boo hoo. Mhaldor has to deal with a MAJORLY toned down version of the spam and bullshit they've made Eleusis deal with for WEEKS now, while they can still harass Eleusis with it if they really feel like (albeit to a much lesser degree).

    I feel like most of Aegoth's points were written either in blissful or willful ignorance of the rest of the posts in this thread.

    /shrug
    Huh. Neat.
    TukioCailinRangorWicella
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