Extermination and Vivification

Titonus

you guys also have how many forest rooms that we never touch? We have stuck to Sapience exclusively, which leaves, what, hundreds of other forest rooms unaffected. 

Exxia

Exelethril said:

Iirc it's a choice between heart or soulspear from a corpse? I like the concept of opportunity cost versus the previous no cap, minimal effort/huge results exterm mechanics though.

can still get both thank god

Cooper

Aelyn said:

@Exxia I'm sorry that you view disagreement as insulting. I rarely post to forums because I find it can devolve easily, and that is not the point of them. Even in a cooperative sense, it still takes us hours. It's highly time-consuming. And leads to extreme frustration in a way that is not fun for a game that I feel is often overlooked, which is what I was getting at. It also needs to be taken into account that extermination instantly denies grove skills and forest defs, while vivify does not seem to do so and has an all on-plane smaller area. Grove summon was already slowed in the last classleads.

It only takes hours because you force yourselves to replant exterminated rooms, which is 100% not necessary. If you didn't do that, even if we did 500 rooms it would only take a group of 5 people 20 minutes to rejuvenate.

Taryius

A few ideas thrown out there to offset the fact that Mhaldor gets no defenses on our Isle whereas forestals get forest utility and defences

Perhaps gravehands and infestations cost no life essence when being summoned on the Isle? That way we can use those crucial skills and maintain essence to exterminate the vivified rooms

I don't think we need an alternative to grove flow with how small the Isle is.

Extermination messages appear on beginning (you sense a foul breach in blah blah) and on completion (you sigh as a portion of the natural essence fades away so on so on). Mhaldor only gets the start message, could we have a completed message added? I don't mind the spam.

Naoma

It takes us longer to rejuvenate than you think. I have personally spent over 300k just on ice. Then turned around and spent literal HOURS replanting. You guys go off mainland guess what Bopolopia, meropis. You guys hit islands as well, so I really don't think that location as you say matters. We have one literal small area where you all spread out and cause more damage. A lot of us cant use minerals, and dont have the skills so when you are killing off entire forests you are effecting the actual costs of herbs for literally everyone that uses them, not a big deal for rock eaters, but its mechanics. We should be able to destroy rooms with primes in them if you want to get into the fair factor

Kiet

I like the system overall, but:

1) Exterminating an entire forest does nothing to forestal sunlight unless they forgot to protect their grove. Why are essence users punished for losing, but grove users aren't? It's 100% doable to just ignore exterm eternally and nothing happens. If Mhaldor ignores vivify, their ability to fight is affected.

2) It remains infinitely easier to stop exterm than vivify. Yes, smaller rooms, but there's still forest defs, summon, flow/gate (which are incredibly strong), and preserved rooms. Mhaldor needs at least some advantage on their home turf, otherwise it's kind of one-sided.

Titonus

Not sure 'kinda' is the word I would have used.

Melodie

Since a lot of people have already stated my potential worries, lemme just say I'm excited for change and interested to see how this is improved on both sides. I'm also hopeful this will change how we generally engage in conflict.

@Aegoth goan be mad tho, this adjusts some of the plans for the next few days.

Wicella

Just a quick question for the exterminators.  I know Exterminating is supposed to allow you to gain necromantic essence.  With the changes in essence cost to exterminate, are you guys coming out positive or negative from exterminating? Or is it like positive for the first room and then negative after you've done a few rooms? @Exxia @Locki

Taryius

Can't speak so accurately as you guys haven't been replanting the rooms fully (Why waste resources if they're going to burn soon anyway) but it looks to be pretty negative. Used to come out about even before they doubled the base cost. 

Reyson

I'd like it if Vivify dropped the protection on a person's grove.

The time can scale upwards- one vivify gives a tiny window, but if you've been at it ages within 24 hours, your protection should go down, as well.

Given both defending/recovering from -and- attacking forests uses essence for Necromancy, I feel it's only fair if it swings the other way, as well. 

Caelan

Or... just make vivify cut down max sunlight for a period of time similar to essence?  or some such.  

Admittedly out of it as far as Druid stuff goes.

Alrena

So considering it seems that vivify costs the grove sunlight too, it's not easily replenishable and would take a lot of forestals to work together to vivify the entire Isle. I'm okay with this.

I don't think we need Fog Defenses. We're Mhaldor, we don't need this nonsense, only the power of our belief and the strength of our arms. ForumRP aside, it's a much smaller area and Mhaldor can learn to deal with being mildly disadvantaged for a while after Eleusis dealt with it for years and years. Just man up and show them up, team.

While I don't feel the essence penalty is needed to motivate Mhaldor to stop it, it's likely never going to be very noticeable as I doubt the Isle will be vivified for very long. On the other hand it will still give Eleusis a proper reason to actually go and do it, so I'm okay with it.

Yay for forest defenses not being on by default, awesome change! 


So my only real question is: if forest enemies can still be open PK to Eleusis in forests, are forestals who have participated in vivify efforts before be considered open PK to Mhaldor on the Isle? 

Marisella

I have always worked on the assumption that being on being on Mhaldor Isle as an enemy would already open you up to aggressions, if a warning is first ignored. To me, I think it would not be a stretch to say forestals who participate in vivify efforts will be open PK.

Naoma

I would assume so as well

Alrena

Unless rejuvenations give infamy, can we uh... make it so exterminating vivified Isle does not give infamy? I feel clearing out damage shouldn't give us infamy!

Reyson

Exterming a vivified room should also be free, or actually give you an essence boost. We come out way below at a net loss, if we're repairing rooms, essence-wise.

Antidas

Alrena said:

So my only real question is: if forest enemies can still be open PK to Eleusis in forests, are forestals who have participated in vivify efforts before be considered open PK to Mhaldor on the Isle? 

Honestly, it should just be changed so that forest enemies are only open PK in a forest with active forest defenses. Or even just in any forest for an time after an extermination anywhere. Forests cover way too much of the game and its way too easy for a (theoretical, I don't think this happens that frequently outside of war-time?) group of Eleusians to camp in a grove waiting for someone to enter the forest and instantly flow/gank them, purely because some Mhaldorian was on their way to Morindar and had to pass through Northreach to get there

Naoma

To be honest we only really go after them if they are in EI we don't make a habit to chase you all down unless a) you are causing grief by being there ie immediately following an exterm or b) In an area that is easy to get to thats close to Eleusis. 

I have seen a lot of you all pass through forests unharmed by out combatants so that is just whining to whine. You guys got your stuff fixed and now that it is -somewhat- fair, you are going to cry wolf. I'm not sorry but you have literally mainland, islands, any forest/jungle room where as we as forestals are limited to JUST the isle. So yeah we have groves, but cant summon from off continent. You cant exactly chase easy either considering there is jungle/forest literally everywhere. So you have to know roundabout where they are located IF you can even get there.

Big deal the Isle gets hit. You all were hitting Bop and Meropis as well as other forest rooms, we literally can only do a handful of rooms, you have the passive regen when you hit rooms with plants in them (ie most islands.). So I really don't see what the big deal is. Once staff/grove are empty we are out until sun's up. Even then we are limited with a bit of light not counting what we use for defenses.  So this is a moot complaint.

Titonus

You grab hold of a nearby branch and swing nimbly up into the treetops.

In the trees above Beneath the towering oaks.

The sun beats down oppressively upon the land, banishing any moisture beneath its rays.

You see exits leading north, south, and west.

8874(100%)H(92%)M(100%)W(99%)E ekdb-[d][][]

O======================O

|!!!!!BALANCE BACK!!!!!|

O======================O (1.99s)

You see a deer wander through a clearing in the distance.

8874(100%)H(92%)M(100%)W(100%)E exkdb|b-[d][][]

Now, I know this isn't a big deal for the majority of you, but, I have never been in the trees(without them shaking me out).

Titonus

This was suppose to be in the 'What happened to you today' thread...

Reyson

Exterminating to eliminate vivify burned through my essence pretty quick tonight, spent 6ish hours never over half. Given essence is a smaller pool, adjusting the cost for getting rid of vivify doesn't seem unreasonable. 

Laedha

Exxia said:

 I've exterminated a lot of rooms, and I will say it's something when you go on an exterm run and an hour later those rooms are all rejuvenated.

I think part of the point is that there shouldn't be mass extermination runs now. The old system was fairly fast/cheap to exterm and fairly fast/cheap to fix and very annoying for both sides when it escalated to hundreds of rooms. Death by a thousans cuts. Demoralizing for Mhaldor when exterms got fixed fast and demoralizing to Eleusis when their fixed rooms got hit again an hour later. 

Cooper

Naoma is right about Eleusis/forestals not ganking us when we are just walking through a forest.

That did happen -very- frequently in the past, where forestals would sit 5-10 deep in groves just waiting to hit grove flow on anyone they saw walking through the forest. I'd say that this behaviour ended a very minimum of 5 years ago, if not longer than that. We don't get randomly attacked anymore.

Torrent

I personally loved this change!! It gives a more even dynamic in between the two factions and allows more options to be more aggressive. I agree with the changes on letting Necromancers use an item instead of life essence to devivify a room.  I don't think that giving Mhaldor fog abilities is the best way to help combat this change. Considering forestals can only vivify one area, while exterminations can happen, islands, Meropis, other planes that were the main reason for forestals to have flow and summon to the vast stretches of area to get to in order to defend. We can always allow necromancers to harvest the hearts of denizens to gather life essence from denizens like karma for occultists to offset the balance. 

Naoma

I do agree that something else does need to be used to offset essence and keep it "fair" maybe w/p a comm and stuff same as Rejuvenation for forestals

Alrena

Reyson said:

Exterming a vivified room should also be free, or actually give you an essence boost. We come out way below at a net loss, if we're repairing rooms, essence-wise.

This actually seems fine to me, since I 'fixed' most of the vivified rooms. 1% per room is no problem when it's not likely they'll have more than 5 rooms done. Even if they did 50 rooms, that's likely drained 5-6 forestals of all energy, and only costs you half your essence. A quarter if you borrow my super special awesome half-essence vambrace.

edit: maybe worth to check if the increasing cost from exterming forests would carry on to exterming vivified rooms? Meaning, if you exterm a room in EI, and then exterm vivified rooms within the hour on the Isle, would the latter cost more essence?

Krypton

The Announce says exterming vivified rooms is a flat 1% cost.

Mathilda

Just as long as this anti-Vivification commodity is not silver, we're good. 

Naoma

haha! Totally should be silver Kidding of course!