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Comments
Players from all factions have had the chance to impact how that conflict played out, from people trying to intensify conflict to people trying to influence pacifists in Eleusis to scale that conflict back. People from both factions got the choice to take the angle that made most sense for them and their character and actually have a tangible impact. And that's really fucking cool!
One of these is being hostile with Eleusis in so far as they are hostile with us. Retaliation, aggression, etc against a faction that has been hostile with us in the past, and insults our gods and drops our shrines and performs ritualistic sacrifice of our denizens in our city etc etc. I don't think anyone here is arguing that we shouldn't raid the f*** out of Eleusis and enjoy the conflict between two of the largest (the two largest? Cyrene doesn't count) factions in the game right now.
The other side is arguing that despite these aggressions and hostility and whatever else happens between Eleusis and Targossas, Eleusis will likely not be written into our canon or lore or backstory or whatever-else-you-want-to-call-it as a threat to Creation and thus will, in the long run and ICly, not be as important an enemy as Evil/Chaos/Darkness, each of whom are quite literally written into our lore as the three greatest threats to Creation.
Y'all should stop being so goddamn snarky with each other. WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???
*Goes back to Legend of Zelda hole again*
Rory : fuck their shit up.
What more do you want?!
Joining this city, basically everything I had to fucking read was about how Darkness and Evil and Chaos are bad and why we oppose them and all that jazz. All the sermons were about them. All the rituals were about them. Deucalion's history is specifically opposed to Chaos. They are pretty clearly the main enemies of Targossas by any reasonable standard.
On the other hand, I don't remember reading a goddamn word about Nature or Eleusis. I don't remember it showing prominently anywhere in the stuff I had to learn about. As far as I've managed to understand it, Targossas doesn't like Eleusis because they're a bunch of dicks who keep attacking us. Sure, they might be one of our main enemies right now, but that's because of circumstance. They're pretty clearly not considered to be on the level of the Dark/Evil/Chaos triad.
I have an interesting theorum/story that im planning to release in time to try and explain why He chooses to seek domination and remaking of the universe. Should be fun.
Twilight only wants to remake everything. Chaos wants to unmake everything.
Basically unseen and unknown seems far more frightening than seen.
PS @Bail has a super interesting philosophy that I would recommend people ask him about.
Arghhh, sorry about the thread necro, I haven't been on the forums in forever and just saw this.
I wish I could edit or delete what I said, but I can't, so I have to try to correct it here.
I've changed a lot since I wrote that. Even when I wrote it, I had a feeling that I didn't word it right, that something was a little off.
1. I apologize for the flippant remark about cities.
2. I understand now why Targossas and Eleusis can never be totally at peace. Although I like some things (not all) about Targossas, and have a few Targossan friends.
One thing that hasn't changed-- I am still a Concordi, and always will be.
I don't care to raid or Crusade myself, but the LAST thing I want is for all Eleusians to be like me. You guys are a cool bunch.
Anyways, will still have conversation with you IG if you want.
These 'pacifists' are portrayed as hating all fighting and will impede other people from engaging in it. This is a misrepresentation that arise out of a lack of understanding on how other people's relationship with Achaea can differ from one's own experience.
Players who play for the non-combat aspects of the game exist in EVERY city, even the most militant ones. Yet they do not have the same problem or same degree of friction as that of Eleusis. How are the 'pacifists' in Eleusis so different from their counterparts in other cities?
The answer is, there is really no difference. The underlying cause of the divide has never been about pacifists versus combatants, as appear to be the sole axis being offered in this thread.
Consider this. At least during pre-Ren, the forestal faction has been known for its 'zerg rush' when the forests come under threat. What this means is, players who do not usually care for combat often take part in defense when an actual transgression against Nature occurs. Those who do not take up arms themselves will also support those who do when they believe violence is called for.
These 'pacifists' are not pacifists at all. They will fight or support fighting when they believe the cause and reason justified. So then why the divide in Eleusis? What is the cause? Perhaps the clue lies in the very title of this thread : "A way to make Eleusian RP make sense for -everyone-"
Yes it is the RP that comes with the Renaissance(Ren) that has caused this long drawn out divide with no end in sight. Overnight, "the village of Eleusis, home of forestals" becomes "the village of the Order of Gaia, named Eleusis". Suddenly, there is the Viridian Charter authored by Gaia that all Eleusians have to abide by. It speaks of anti-civilization and the ultimate victory of Nature at the very end.
Now, people who joined Eleusis before the Ren joined so because it was the community for all forestals(the village's founding purpose). They did not join to become members of an Order, or they would have joined the Order.
Consider also, Nature is a very physical and tangible reality for a forestal's beliefs. It is not some creed-based system relying on scriptures or truths. The attempt to turn something so secular into a religion is not easily accepted by those who play characters that truly love Nature for itself.
This is also why, even though one might think(or hoped for by others) that after such a long time, the divide will slide in favour of those who support the Charter, that has not happened at all. Even though new members have to swear by the Charter from their Day 1, they more often than not join the Nature faction for Nature and not for some God's vision about it.
If we accept this explanation - that the RP is the cause of the divide, and not because of 'bad pacifists', then we can see why arguments(in this thread) like "But we left you an entire house, the Heartwood Kin, to do as you have always done" or "But there's this clause that says you do not have to do any of the anti-civilization stuff, Nature will win regardless of what you do" are really irrelevant to the subject. They are actually really degrading.
Most of us join a community to be truly with like minded people and working towards the same cause, for the comradery whether as a combatant or administrator or any other role. It is no different for the forestals. Sectioning a huge portion of the community to go 'play house' and pretend everything is just as before is either an attempt at degradation or a display of insensitivity.
Yes, even the forestals who do not cry for bloodshed care about the world, care about the forestals part in it. They want to be able to leave their mark on it. If Achaea is a living storybook, they do not want to already know the ending, much less the one offered by the Viridian Charter. What is there to live for if the ending is fixed? How much worse this becomes when you tell them they don't have to do anything and Nature will not only survive but actually 'win'? There is already a faction for nihilists and Chaos really suits their theme, not Nature.
Still find it hard to understand why the divide exists?
Regardless, the hard cold truth is that it does. Someone has suggested Gaia became dormant because she can't handle the divide. Many others have gone dormant because of it. Some prominent giant figures of the Nature community literally showed us their broken hearts in the public and poetry newsboard saying goodbye in the aftermath. How can this divide be mended?
More than one person suggested that those who do not abide by the new order should leave. I believe that to be unfair. Even though ICly, the new anti-civilization stance is a product of Gaia, oocly, people guessed and probably rightly so that this new directive is actually the birthchild of a few players.
Why should the majority of players condemn their characters to roguehood (the Heartwood kin outsizing the Scions by a few fold at the time) because of the action of the minority? Bear in mind, no other player based forestal communities exist outside of Eleusis. Of less importance, no cities are allowed to accept any members of the three forestal classes.
Also if all players who do not care for Gaian ideology left Eleusis at the time after the Renaissance, I suspect those that remain will be too small to sustain itself efficiently. But that besides the point.
I would like to suggest something. What someone posted in this thread makes alot of sense: "You want a place in Eleusis? Accept that the "violent" forestals have a place in Eleusis too and learn to get along already."
Brilliant, as this can also mean that one should accept that the people who treats Nature as Nature and nothing more, exists in Eleusis and get along with them. This and the above really should be the case and yet this getting along is not allowed to happen because the Viridian Charter really only favours one side.
I propose then the Viridian Charter be moved to the househall of the Scions. Afterall, Scions' ideology is practically the Charter itself. Just as the 'peaceful' people should not impose on the whole of Eleusis with their ideals as suggested by the other forumer, why then should the 'violent' people lord over everyone and dictate Eleusian(Eleusian as in everyone including Heartwood) foreign policy with the Charter backing them.
Or are the 'violent' people so unconfident of their ideals that they must rely on this free win card that they deem backed by the admin? Are they so unconfident that they will not promote/roleplay their ideals on a level playing field to the bigger entity that is Eleusis?
This solution I propose means that Eleusis at any point in time in the future, is only as anti-civilization as the collective will of its people. As opposed to a static state of constant maximum anti-civilization, Eleusis now has a chance to shift its foreign policy based on consensus/election of leaders. And this consensus will shift based on the political power that each side has. For instance, a charismatic and convincing anti-civilization leader may sway the Eleusian population towards a strong anti-civilization stance for a period of decades while he/she is active and vice-versa.
Advantage of this is, players in Eleusis can play the political game and leave their mark by creating chapters in history that stand out. The state of Eleusis and by extension, the world, becomes affectable by players. While it may seems that this solution does not mend the division, which is true. I believe it will turn the schism into a healthier one as it allows both side to fairly compete. Other than that, I do not see how the schism can be closed without rewriting the ideals of one of the two houses.
Another healthy sign that was given to us by the admin that may support this idea is this:
the admin said on page 698 of the Quotes thread - "Just a coincidence, there's no consolidated push to make cities to conform to that template. "
The template being referred to is one where the Gods are at the very top of the city hierarchy. This statement by the admin was also proven recently during a recent Hashan coup to convert it to religious rule. The coup was allowed to be overturned by consensus from the Hashani population. Elections were held and the results honoured without any admin interference thus returning Hashan to secular rule once more. I have faith that if a 'DArkness Charter' suddenly appears in Hashan, the admin will allow consensus to overturn it.
I hope this brings you hope, Eleusis. Good luck, forestals! Have faith that Achaea indeed has player-run cities!
@Aegoth can you not be a dick for two seconds? If you don't want to read it then don't read it and shut -up-. Whoever this guy is, he's intelligent and it's refreshing to read something someone has put actual thought into. Honestly, he's put more time into writing a post than I ever could have, but that doesn't deserve any disrespect. piss off, aegoth, you jackass.
Now this divide was there long before the viridian charter. And it is not really due to what is in the viridian charter, it is because some players go bat Shit in Eleusis when a God or player comes and tries to put some new flair on the forestal identity or rp. It happened pretty much every time we get a divine that tries to go slightly hands-on and play their role for what it actually is.
The reason it didn't surface in the past is because Eleusis was a largely insignificant city on the world stage for a loooong time and we had no divine who actually did anything.
Eleusis can be a pretty cool place, is filled with great and friendly people. But limiting our rp to "nature so pretty, I LOVE IT" is a bit meh.