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Comments
More to the the point, Eleusis has always had this issue of division. I remember Gaia -trying- to make something happen but she was fought every step of the way. I am sure @Alrena remembers that each time you attempted to do something of benefit for Eleusis, you were met with a huge amount of resistance that rivals Cyrene's.
The sad truth of the matter is, I doubt it will change, there are too many pacifists and that is all they know and remotely want. Which is so very sad, Eleusis has so much potential, yet you have players that are blocking any kind of successful growth and community.
My idea doesn't work, that's fine. Totally fine, it was just an idea. But, I need to say this because the "go find some RP" and "ok then leave dumdum" comments are frustrating, because they're just completely worthless. It doesn't help anything. Like can you say something constructive or helpful? Get outta here. I digress. So, in my opinion, being a rogue is like qq'ing the game without actually qq'ing. I've had a rogue character before, and it's severely boring. Please don't tell me I have to go find RP and the game is what I make it, because rogue life is lonely and depressing and again, boring. Whether you find RP here and there or not. Most people are AFK half the time, or standing around chatting on OOC clans, and/or have no interest in you or your story. Besides, I don't want to leave the city, I don't want to be separated from the story line, I don't want to wander around aimlessly, visiting people and hunting, to no end. Rogue life is not the solution. So, no. And you people saying "gtfo if you don't like it" I'm guessing you would feel just as frustrated if you were in this position.
It's not that I'm not having fun (and it's not just me, by the way, this isn't all about me), I have a great time when I'm online. But, when it comes to the actual religious/Naturey stuff RP, when you're not socialising and making friends (IC friends, not on OOC chat clans) then it's just so, so frustrating. There's nothing to be said, because nothing makes sense. "Yeah, I think cities shouldn't exist too, but I don't think killing the people who live in them over and over again is the answer so I'm just gonna stand around and complain" ..okay, well that's stupid. So, what is the answer? This is the problem. This is what I'm talking about. What is the answer? I just want to make something in the game that can be backed by people who don't want to RP their character to be slapping down everyone who feels differently than they do. Meet us halfway by doing x + y so we can get to z.
So, that was fun. Just explaining the core of what I think the problem is. If the text/wording makes me sound pissy, sorry. I'm not, I'm just direct.
Moving on...
I think it was @Sarathai that said something about how each of the cities is never going to compromise, and he said why. I appreciated that. That was useful, so thanks guy. After reading through all the responses, I can see why my idea was never gonna work. I didn't appreciate all the attitude, but you're all right, regardless. So, I guess I'm just back where I started. No clue how to fix the problem, even though I'm willing to put in the work it would most definitely require. If you guys have any suggestions that don't involve giving up in some way or another, I'm listening. Meanwhile, I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing IC, which is mindlessly arguing a moot point. It's frustrating, but it's also fun at times to hear what other people think and try to see things from their position.
Why do you expect constructive criticism on something that was worse than a troll post?
Here is your idea translated to Evil:
I would REALLY love it, if we could find a way to make it possible to create a story that ends with everyone worshipping Sartan instead of being opposed to Evil.
The RP behind this story would be that Mhaldor has to convince cities that they need to change. Right now it sucks cause not everyone worships Sartan and that's my RP and everyone else should support Sartan.
Everyone who doesn't agree with this should be destroyed.
I feel this is a great way for Sartan to get more power and be more awesome.
The whole "People don't accept Evil as the one true path" doesn't work for me right now. Everyone should accept Sartan.
Do you see how stupid that is?
@Kiah if it helps you can think of it like this: cities already had the choice to chill with nature and be chill, and they said nah. So your job as a non-comm is now to convince citizens to leave and either join you in Eleusis or go rogue (because a city with no citizens gets taken back by nature). Game doesn't have to change, you don't have to learn to pk, and you have an excuse to go badger people for IC story arcs.
Honestly what I am saying is that if you focus your attention internally and try to change Eleusis into being less combative then you are being parasitic and doing it wrong. If you focus it outwards are just start preaching then you are actually spreading RP and being constructive then I am sure some people will see it and start joining in if it suits them. Or you will find out it isn't as fun as your thought and that is the reason it hasn't really taken off.
IMO, the Renascence was to give cover to the combatants after centuries of people complaining about someone or other getting them raided, trying to force it back to that is a no go at this point, maybe in a couple of RL years they will think differently.
It's not that various Eleusians disagree, it's that a large portion of them do everything possible to undermine the faction and anything related to those goals, or to any people who support those goals. That includes, in some instances, organizing OOCly to cause problems, or messaging Tecton and whining, or a slew of other things I'm sure I never heard about. The things I did hear about was enough to chase me off from Eleusis for good.
There's nothing constructive or interesting about what's been happening, and it's been happening for OOC years now. It's just drama, headache, and a mess. I wish the Eleusians the best, but I stand by my original statement: There comes a time where you have to let go of the old and embrace the new for the sake of the faction's identity and validity. Now's that time.
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
It seems like easy RP but it is deceptively hard to make a pacifist that isn't an abrasive asshole blaming everyone for violence in the world. I don't think it should be discouraged if someone wants to make the attempt, as long as they are mostly focused external to the city. No one wants citymate complaining about their actions and by playing a counter-culture role that is what you will will be doing and it will be bad and annoying.
Of course, I mean all of this in a high-concept sort of way and you are saying it has already devolved into the parasitic, pull down everyone else because they interrupted my chatting/mudsex by inviting retaliation bullshit that it always turns into and so should probably be stomped out.
Look. The thing you need to realize here is that pacifism is dead in this game and it is dead for good reason. It is a boring stale ideology that contributes nothing to the game but drama and petty politics. It creates internal conflict while remaining impotent against external forces.
Quite simply, there's just nothing for a pacifist ideology to do. There's no way that it can accomplish anything, no levers you can use against us. You can't really hit our trade. You can't sway global opinions against us, because we're already at war with the entire world. You can't sway our citizens against us, because we are a theocracy. All you can really do is hope that the Bloodsworn decide to side with you despite the fact that there is zero benefit for them in doing so.
The only thing that your pacifist ideology does is weaken your own faction. The pacifist faction is basically our fifth column, weakening Eleusis from the inside while we pound on them from the outside. When Eleusis fights itself, we win.
The best thing you can do for Eleusis is abandon the peaceful hippie forestal mindset and join in the war effort. You can do a "more in sorrow than in anger" instead of being the wrath of nature, that would be fine.
The second best thing you can do for Eleusis is to quit the organization and stop setting it against itself.
The absolute worst thing you can do for Eleusis is exactly what you are doing now.
The biggest problem I tend to have with pacifist types is that, while they want things to change, it's not exactly clear what it is they want to -do- once things have changed. 'I don't want to fight' isn't actually a platform; if you lack a clear direction and agenda, you're going to find it very hard to break the status quo, even assuming people who mostly play Achaea to enjoy themselves fighting (which is, after all, the reason the game's still going, since non-fighters rarely buy as many artefacts as fighters do, I suspect) are okay with you trying to steer Eleusis in a less militant direction.
Mostly, all I've ever heard out of 'pacifist' sub-factions and groups is directionless and anemic. I don't doubt that you could make something interesting out of it, if you took time to really develop your point of view in-game and come up with interesting and engaging alternatives to combat. Plant your agents (hah, puns!) in other Cities' governments to convince them to vote on allowing Eleusis to perform rituals in certain green spots within each City, so that Nature can keep an eye on them. Subvert their military efforts by performing rituals to attract converts who want to see the world become more than just a steel-and-stone mess. Offer them what they're not getting, in short. It has to be a decent carrot, for the mule to follow you.
At the moment, all I've really heard is the same old things pacifists for 10 RL years have been saying- it's inconvenient, I don't want to do it, etc. etc. Truth is, nowadays, the inconveniences of combat are pretty contained to combatants, and people skip off to do stuff they'd rather do than fight all the time, even the hardcore believers! It's a game, do what you enjoy. But trying to change the way the game not only works, but the way it's fundamentally built up, through OOC efforts over IC ones is a bit... hmm. I don't mean to be unkind, but it does sound a bit like what you just want what you want because you want it.
Ultimately, pacifism =/= passivity. You can't just say 'let's get rid of combat!' and not replace it with -anything-. You have to have the next step planned out and ready to be put into play -before- you call for a repeal of a state of the game that many people (myself included!) do find very enjoyable. Make it interesting, make it engaging, and make it worthwhile, and I'm fairly sure you'll have a much, much better time of it than running to post about changing the game in a massive way on the forums. Easier to do things when you have a leg to stand on, after all!
Tl;dr: This kind of thing is better off done in-game than through OOC channels. Pacifist agendas tend to be boring, so the trick'd be to make it interesting, for a change, in probably an RP-heavy way, since you're taking away one of the most (if not the most) engaging things about Achaea from a whole group of people. Even more better if you take charge and are the leader for this change you want to see.
If that was the argument, then I'm going to disagree, but not because I think it's a bad idea. Rather, I think those sorts of possibilities already exist, albeit in the realm of complete theory. If you got all of Cyrene to support the city growing more in line with Eleusis' standards, I think there's a pretty good chance that the admin would be willing to go along with it from a mechanical perspective. It'll probably never happen, but -could- it happen? I think there's a good possibility.
The big thing here is that Achaea's a roleplaying game, and so no player should feel constrained to only roleplay options that have a good deal of obvious mechanical support. There's nothing stopping pacifist Eleusians from going around and preaching voluntary change for the cities, and playing a good cop to the militaristic side of the city's bad cop role. Really, I think there's a shame we see so little of this, compared to cities with more defined preaching arms. And even if you, as a player, know there's a snowball's chance in hell that anything would ever happen mechanically (just as there's no chance PVP will ever lead to real change, really), there's no reason for your character to think that these actions would be impossible, since they're all broadly supported as possible in Achaea's world.
And honestly, I think there's some really interesting space for that sort of roleplay when it comes to Cyrene, at the very least. Gods know how much the city seems to regret going with alchemists these days, and with how much raiding works as a real threat for most Cyrenians, I think there's potential for some interesting roleplay, if someone would just make it happen. Even if you never get the results you're looking for, these sorts of efforts can have a big impact. Mhaldor's preaching is a good example of that, and back when Rangor gave his presentation, my character for one found it persuasive, and she's since gone on to ascend into her house leadership. So get out and roleplay your peaceful conversion efforts. The game will be a more interesting place for it.
Dont get us wrong. This is a game in the ens and if you wish to champion a cause then go for it. Nothing wrong with it. You just may not get many positive results.
From a lore point of view you may be interested in seeing the history of 'Sparrow's rest' which is a group of nature worshippers that also disagreed with the way eleusis does things. The Druid's house was also often against how eleusis did things in nature. You do not need to be uniform
I don't see why you can't do what you suggested in the first post, minus the expectation of a guaranteed result or at least needing the admin to say "Yes, we'll make this possible." before you even try. None of the cities are going to respond positively, but that doesn't mean you can't go out and try to convince them anyway. There's not really anything stopping you. OOCly, we all know our factions are never going to actually win, because there's no conflict if everybody is on the same side. Obviously we don't act like that ICly.
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
I'm not unrealistic, I was just trying to think of a creative way to make RP more fruitful. With combat, you can actually -do- something. With RP, you just get to talk.
I can tell pretty much none of you know Kiah IG which is totally fine. It's true she is a non-comm. It's false that she wants to stand around bitching and moaning, and not trying to make things better by discussing and learning with other players. I also said that if it came down to the point where an actual compromise was offered, and every single city still refused to try something different in the name of Nature, then she'd get down with beating some ass again.
So just to reiterate, I've been saying it'd be nice if there was something to -do- (something TO DO) other than talk. It's fun and all, but I am the type of person who prefers to get results, and talking can't get the type of results that will truly solve the problem. Which is, Operation Save Nature.
Okay, cool.
So now that we all understand each other I wanted to say thanks to @Antidas cus yeah, there was some seriously uncalled for and puerile behavior. I'm glad to see the thread took a turn for the better.
@Asmodron I agree, and thank you.
My last comment on some things that have been said so far:
There's been some amount of over-exaggeration here. Details are important, especially with a sensitive topic like this one where passions are flaring and deeply rooted opinions are being tested etc whatever else.
Passivity and pacifism are two completely different things, yes, and that's also what I'm saying. That is exactly. What I'm saying. I want results. I want us to DO something. Just because I'm not down for slapping hos doesn't mean I am happy to sit around on my ass looking for a good excuse to complain. The plan after? It's self-explanitory. We want to see nature healed, we want to accomplish this without trying to burn the cities and their inhabitants to the ground. When the cities cooperate, we can work towards the healing. If the cities don't cooperate AFTER WE'VE GIVEN AN ACTUAL OPTION TO HEAL NATURE then that's when we should start slapping people around, imo.
Right now we're (Eleusis) saying "hey you should move out of your house with all the shiny things and come live in the dirt with me so nature can heal" and the cityfolk are like naw.
My idea was saying: "hey you should let us put some nature in your house, that way you can stay in your house without hurting nature, cool?" and if that could be a viable option, maybe some cities would be like 'sure go for it', and maybe they'd all be like naw get outta here u dirty bug and then we'd just have to throw down.
Do you guys get it? I'm not saying we should make everyone change their religion and shit, it's not the way @Cooper said at all. He's nuts. I'm not trying to say hey you should worship Gaia instead, c'mere I'm gonna put shrines in your city is that ok? No. Way off.
Do I still think my idea is the answer? No, not really. I just hate it that it seemed no one really understood what I was trying to get at.
Edit: And I am aware that Ashtan and Mhaldor's "religion" kind of requires that they hate Nature and what not. This is why I'm saying, if a city would refuse to change even with a good alternative, then f*ck em let's fight.
TL;DR???? I bolded the stuff that outlines what I'm saying.
And honestly, RP is how most of the change in the game takes place. Combat is bound by the systems it takes place in, if you RP well you get stuff like @Jurixe (and others I assume) making that thing on Meropis. If you do it well you can get some support, if you don't then try to do it better next time.
I don't know about your situation, but the best I can suggest is to lay off preaching to the choir for a while and try talking to the other factions and find where you can make any progress. Once you find the places that have some wiggle room work out an event that focuses on that.
Why not RP exactly what you're saying though? Actually try to persuade the cities to undergo some change. They'll most likely all say no anyway. If someone says yes, that's the point where you ask the Divine to help make it happen.
Your idea is just kinda backwards because the gods aren't going to make it happen for you, which means there's literally nothing for them to do for you presently. You have to RP your way there first.
I honestly thought Rangor and them literally already RPed exactly what you want. I know someone asked to do something in Targ and I said hell no. I'm just not sure where the issue is.
My advice is to start with Cyrene, because you actually stand some chance of success there. Ashtan, Hashan, and Mhaldor are out; they'll never make peace with Eleusis. Targossas, in theory, might be willing to make common cause with Eleusis but the truth is that Targossians like PK too much to want to make peace with another faction. You can try, but these cities aren't even going to be willing to listen to you.
Cyrene, though... Cyrenians actively want to avoid conflict so there's a chance they'd be willing to at least consider making some changes to be more in harmony with nature. That's more than you'll get from any of the other cities.
You have a bigger problem in Eleusis' warriors coming in and stomping people you're theoretically working on, though, if you start in a City other than Cyrene (once fighters step in, roleplay avenues tend to clam up, because of the whole 'you killed us!' thing, I've found).