A way to make Eleusian RP make sense for -everyone-

Nazihk

I mean more that Eleusis wouldn't want to make peace with Hashan.

Ahmet

Nazihk said:

Cyrene, though... Cyrenians actively want to avoid conflict 

Certain Cyrenians may want to actively avoid conflict, but Cyrene as a whole holds no such inclination.

Xaden

Ahmet said:

Nazihk said:

Cyrene, though... Cyrenians actively want to avoid conflict 

Certain Cyrenians may want to actively avoid conflict, but Cyrene as a whole holds no such inclination.

Then do something

Nazihk

Ahmet said:

Nazihk said:

Cyrene, though... Cyrenians actively want to avoid conflict 

Certain Cyrenians may want to actively avoid conflict, but Cyrene as a whole holds no such inclination.

You can can say that after the first time Cyrene does literally anything aggressive.

Until then, enjoy your rep as Carebear Central. 

Telinus

Maybe first we could remove the players from Eleusis who actively don't want to follow the Gods of Nature, or choose to completely ignore the charter.

Kayeil

Cyrene aided during the tsol'teth event, and Cyrenians did raid Mhaldor during the Bal'met event. They may not actively raid on the regular, but when it counts in game as an event where Cyrene must stand up as well, they do.

Kiah

I still don't think my idea is the right one, so can we stop talking about my idea lolol! I'll do some poking around IG and see if we can come up with an idea, or a few, that might work better. Then we can start pitching those ideas to the cities. 

To those of you who are like "didn't you guys already RP this" no, we didn't. The RP that's been done/is being done seems the same if you don't know what I've been talking about, yeah. But it wasn't. See any of my other posts, literally! Most especially the most recent one, since I bolded the important parts

But... Pretty sure I've got a solid idea of how I want to go forward with this. And yeah it's probably gonna be a giant waste of time, as far as actually accomplishing anything goes. But it'll be fun trying, and knowing that MAYBE something could come of it. Do you guys think it'd be uncalled for to mention, in the pitch of these aforementioned "ideas", that we intend to beg the Divine for help to accomplish the desired outcome? That if they (the cities) will agree, we will do what we can to make it happen? 

I work. A lot. Like, 90% of the time I'm awake, I'm at work. But I have the weekends off, plus tomorrow randomly. I bet you guys know what I'll be doing for at least part of my free time!!! 

I'll post what we come up with on here, when we have it figured out. See what kind of feedback we get. Hopefully it's not a shit show like earlier lmao 

  

Sarathai

Kiah said:

To those of you who are like "didn't you guys already RP this" no, we didn't.

We did, actually. Or steps were made towards it.

A bunch of Eleusians went into Targossas and conducted a ritual to help speed things along the way. Targossas took offense because said ritual involved the sacrifice of one of the workers they had building more stuff in the city (which IC was obviously going to be tearing up Nature), and we didn't bother asking permission first. There were a few days of reprisals and fighting in the EI because of it, a bunch of Eleusians got enemied... and then it kind of didn't go any further. I assumed at the time that Rory and Deuc told Targ to stop, plus they were kind of getting hammered in most of the fights.

Kayeil

@Kiah -- you could also try appealing to Orders or denizen villages. It wasn't too long ago that Genji aligned with Lady Gaia, so maybe you can find some common ground with denizens in an RP sense for a little fun with your particular Eleusian faction.

Jurixe

The sentiment of it being 'a giant waste of time as far as accomplishing anything goes' is a bit silly, frankly. It's important to separate what your character knows and what you, the player, knows. As long as it makes sense in Achaea, why not? As long as 'it will be fun trying', then that's the important part. 

I don't think mentioning that you will beg the Divine to help will help your cause in any way. What I'm gathering from this is that you want a separate sort of 'believable' resolution to champion through non-violence for Nature, but why should you? Why can't you work alongside the fighters to achieve reclamation for Nature? You can focus on trying to change the mindset, just like real missionaries: go to the cities, talk to the people, do rituals, do demonstrations, hold events, expeditions, show how cities have destroyed nature and why it's so important. The success of the Gaians in converting Genji has already provided an excellent springboard that you can leverage off on, gives missionary-type roleplay a great boost in Eleusis.

From an IC perspective, why should people want to leave their comfortable cities and try to work in harmony with Nature? You could explain that progress doesn't have to come at the cost of Nature's sacrifice. Talk about Eleusis as an example. Show them how they can serve nature through what they do every day, why it's important, and how their actions are contributing to the health of the planet. Demonstrate what happens when they don't, refer to historical events. Portray yourself as protectors and crusaders out of necessity to protect the home. If they fail to see that their actions are harming the planet and will eventually drive it to destruction, then force may be needed to cleanse the earth so it can be reborn. Someone mentioned earlier trying to influence cities to put more green areas in their cities, which would be a great small step. You know? I'm sure you can think of more. 

There have been some great stories that have resulted from great dedication from characters and that the admin have been willing to pick up and run with (Babel is, of course, the most famous example) but you shouldn't expect that or drive towards that as your end goal. It should be enough to say that you're doing what you're doing to prevent us killing Nature and by extension, ourselves. Use things that have already happened - like the death of plantlife on Mhaldor isle, and the warped and twisted creatures that now live there; the decimation of the Northern Ithmia to raise Hashan - as an example of what could happen. 

Just because it's unlikely to happen doesn't mean it will never happen, after all. The only way to earn legitimacy for your RP among players is to be dedicated and consistent in your effort, no matter how crazy it seems (granted, it still has to make sense within the scope of Achaea). If you need the promise of admin intervention to do it, you'll find yourself very quickly disappointed. Don't rely on them! Make your own stories, and who knows what might happen. It doesn't matter what the ending might be, but if the story isn't engaging to begin with, most will never bother reaching the end.

Melodie

Jurixe said:

Just because it's unlikely to happen doesn't mean it will never happen, after all. The only way to earn legitimacy for your RP among players is to be dedicated and consistent in your effort, no matter how crazy it seems (granted, it still has to make sense within the scope of Achaea).

I think this is the most important bit to take away from this whole thread, honestly. You guys remember Flair, right, and how he and his group created this philosophy around Babel and through years of work, consistency, and roleplay, actually made it reality?

I'm not saying that's absolutely what's going to happen, but I've seen my fair share of things that would be considered "breaches of the norm" simply because people played to their IC beliefs consistently, and worked hard to make it a reality, gather like-minded people, and went out and spoke with anyone and everyone who would (and sometimes wouldn't!) listen.

Achaea's still a place you can make the crazy happen. You just gotta do the work behind it, want it more than anything, and add just a dash of luck.

Ellodin

We've definitely done a good deal of this kind of RP, though that doesn't fit the obvious narrative. It may not be glaringly obvious because it's not on deathsight and not being trumpeted on CT, but it's always been occurring on some level. Even now, there are foundations for a future mode of interaction being laid, but people who openly trash the Viridian Charter/Gaia and refuse to participate in the public events that do occur in game naturally wouldn't know even if I made it a bit more obvious.

And on the Order side, yeah, Genji came to our side through the presentation/discussion and we had some events with them that were really quite wonderful. While that was private, it had an obvious "physical" effect on the village. Is that not something?

It's ignoring these readily available pieces of evidence that always make these arguments of not fitting or feeling unwelcome due to a lack of non-combative methods of interaction seem like straw men.

Ahmet

Sarathai said:

Kiah said:

To those of you who are like "didn't you guys already RP this" no, we didn't.

We did, actually. Or steps were made towards it.

A bunch of Eleusians went into Targossas and conducted a ritual to help speed things along the way. Targossas took offense because said ritual involved the sacrifice of one of the workers they had building more stuff in the city (which IC was obviously going to be tearing up Nature), and we didn't bother asking permission first. There were a few days of reprisals and fighting in the EI because of it, a bunch of Eleusians got enemied... and then it kind of didn't go any further. I assumed at the time that Rory and Deuc told Targ to stop, plus they were kind of getting hammered in most of the fights.

"You guys didn't try the peaceful route."

"Yes we did. We held a ritual without permission inside their city, killed one of their denizens, and told them to stuff it. I can't possibly imagine why it didn't end peacefully."

I laughed. Audibly.

Sarathai

Ahmet said:

Sarathai said:

Kiah said:

To those of you who are like "didn't you guys already RP this" no, we didn't.

We did, actually. Or steps were made towards it.

A bunch of Eleusians went into Targossas and conducted a ritual to help speed things along the way. Targossas took offense because said ritual involved the sacrifice of one of the workers they had building more stuff in the city (which IC was obviously going to be tearing up Nature), and we didn't bother asking permission first. There were a few days of reprisals and fighting in the EI because of it, a bunch of Eleusians got enemied... and then it kind of didn't go any further. I assumed at the time that Rory and Deuc told Targ to stop, plus they were kind of getting hammered in most of the fights.

"You guys didn't try the peaceful route."

"Yes we did. We held a ritual without permission inside their city, killed one of their denizens, and told them to stuff it. I can't possibly imagine why it didn't end peacefully."

I laughed. Audibly.

I said steps were made, I didn't say that they were entirely peaceful ones!

Alrena

Ahmet said:

Sarathai said:

Kiah said:

To those of you who are like "didn't you guys already RP this" no, we didn't.

We did, actually. Or steps were made towards it.

A bunch of Eleusians went into Targossas and conducted a ritual to help speed things along the way. Targossas took offense because said ritual involved the sacrifice of one of the workers they had building more stuff in the city (which IC was obviously going to be tearing up Nature), and we didn't bother asking permission first. There were a few days of reprisals and fighting in the EI because of it, a bunch of Eleusians got enemied... and then it kind of didn't go any further. I assumed at the time that Rory and Deuc told Targ to stop, plus they were kind of getting hammered in most of the fights.

"You guys didn't try the peaceful route."

"Yes we did. We held a ritual without permission inside their city, killed one of their denizens, and told them to stuff it. I can't possibly imagine why it didn't end peacefully."

I laughed. Audibly.

That particular ritual was never meant to be peaceful. It was in response to Targossians entering Eleusis, preaching in yells and when asked to stop and leave, killed a Hierophant. It was meant to stir up conflict, which is why I gave Targ an ultimatum they'd never accept. I just didn't expect the Bloodsworn to block Targ from retaliating, that was a shame. I believe at first we also asked for permission to hold a ritual after the incident, but Targ wouldn't go for it without something in it for them. There were tensions, peaceful routes were tried and eventually we got tired of (the perception of) being looked down on. So yeah, know the facts before you assume you know what happened. :P

But as Ellodin said, there were plenty of other peaceful events that happened. We did the yelling a sermon in Cyrene too, but without murdering a council member. We held a discussion without incidents (but plenty of mockery) in the city, after being informed they take offense to yelling. Rangor did another at the gates with permission. The more I think about it, the more I see it's the combatants who are/were also doing the peaceful things that the pacifists supposedly crave. 

These things have happened and are still happening. You just need to open your eyes and not just blindly believe the people who sit on their butts and go "nothing ever happens" because they look no further than their own nose, too busy complaining about how tyrannical their leadership is.

Don't go into things expecting amazing things to happen. Do these things because they're fun, especially when you have so little free time. If you have a good time debating the virtues of Nature with a few people, even if nothing comes of it, it's worth it.

Rangor

In Eleusis now, member are very much free to run down any path of RP they wish, as shown by how many different voices and thoughts exist in the village. If you stray from the guidance of the gods and viridian charter you will be yelled at. If you choose a non-violent storyline you wish to pursue you will be encouraged and helped as much as can be done, as we have always done with things such as genji , asterian convention and other things. If you wish to build a violent  storyline you will also be supported.

There will be storylines that are in conflict and can be hard to coordinate and pursue at the same time, but that is the cost of a relatively open city. As long as you don't piss on the RP as a whole you should be encouraged and given what help that can be given.

Antidas

Sarathai said:

Kiah said:

To those of you who are like "didn't you guys already RP this" no, we didn't.

We did, actually. Or steps were made towards it.

A bunch of Eleusians went into Targossas and conducted a ritual to help speed things along the way. Targossas took offense because said ritual involved the sacrifice of one of the workers they had building more stuff in the city (which IC was obviously going to be tearing up Nature), and we didn't bother asking permission first. There were a few days of reprisals and fighting in the EI because of it, a bunch of Eleusians got enemied... and then it kind of didn't go any further. I assumed at the time that Rory and Deuc told Targ to stop, plus they were kind of getting hammered in most of the fights.

For the record, we were essentially reminded that we have real enemies to fight (Mhaldor/Ashtan/Hashan) in terms of theology, and while Nature was being a real pain in our ass, they weren't really our enemy, since their goals don't involve harming creation. Hence why we didn't push the conflict. I don't recall constantly getting hammered though, iirc it was pretty even!

This is the same reasoning that remains in Targossas today, for the record. Yeah, we're certainly far from friendly with Eleusis, but they are hardly public enemy number one. No matter what you guys do, it'll likely stay that way, unless Nature somehow decides that it needs to harm Creation to achieve its goals...which would make no sense.

Aegoth

I mean... Evil doesn't harm Creation either for all intents and purposes... it just seeks to enhance it in its own way. If you can claim that Evil is public enemy #1 because you choose to construe it's methods as harmful, you can easily do the same for Eleusis. The only faction that truly has designs to -harm- Creation is Chaos

Antidas

Aegoth said:

I mean... Evil doesn't harm Creation either for all intents and purposes... it just seeks to enhance it in its own way. If you can claim that Evil is public enemy #1 because you choose to construe it's methods as harmful, you can easily do the same for Eleusis. The only faction that truly has designs to -harm- Creation is Chaos

Er, sort of? Evil certainly believes it is helping creation, yeah. However, Good believes what Evil does is harmful to Creation. Each one has arguments to its side and neither is right, considering its a game and there is no actual such thing as Creation. The point is, Good's stance on the matter is that Evil is harmful to Creation since it kills off the weak things, but that Nature is not since all it does is promote the growth of the natural world, which is in and of itself Creation.

Aegoth

I mean... Nature promotes the destruction of works created by sentient beings, as well as the eradication of those very same sentient beings... thereby harming Creation vis a vis the wholesale slaughter of life. 

What I'm getting at, essentially, is that if you're creative, you can make an excuse for anything if you choose to. There's 0 reason that Targ cannot construe Nature as an equal threat to Creation that Evil is (though I will agree that Chaos will always take the cake)

Mathilda

but what is darkness

Farrah

I definitely treat Eleusis as an enemy of Targossas and threat to Creation. I think the confusion stems from the fact that "nature" is more of an actual physical part of Creation, and people think opposing the Nature faction is the same as basically wanting to eradicate "nature."

Targossas doesn't have any reason to want to burn down all forests and slaughter all wildlife. It doesn't support pointless destruction. That doesn't mean we have no reason to oppose those who want to destroy all civilised parts of the world and reduce everything to rubble.

The Nature faction is distinct from the forests themselves. From an IC perspective, if they want to slaughter the cities and hinder civilization's advancement, they're hindering Good because Good wants to advance Creation and accepts civilisation as a kind of advancement. 

Tldr: Burn them alllllllll.

Trey

Mathilda said:

but what is darkness

Baby don't hurt me

Antidas

Aegoth said:

I mean... Nature promotes the destruction of works created by sentient beings, as well as the eradication of those very same sentient beings... thereby harming Creation vis a vis the wholesale slaughter of life. 

What I'm getting at, essentially, is that if you're creative, you can make an excuse for anything if you choose to. There's 0 reason that Targ cannot construe Nature as an equal threat to Creation that Evil is (though I will agree that Chaos will always take the cake)

Nature promotes the destruction of works created by sentient beings, yes. But thats not part of Creation, imo. And as far as I'm aware, it only promotes the eradication of those sentient beings so long as they refuse to get rid of the cities and shit they build that damage nature.

You're not wrong that we can make some excuse to treat Nature like we do the other three factions that are canonically our enemy, that doesn't mean that we can make a -good- excuse for it. I could make any bullshit up and call it an excuse to go burn Eleusis to the ground, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to look at the reasoning with more than a few raised eyebrows. I would prefer not to sacrifice the logic behind a faction's RP purely to make an excuse to have a fourth enemy.

Considering the number of Eleusians I regularly rob and kill, I obviously have no problem considering Eleusis as an enemy. I am totally up for burning Eleusis to the ground purely because they are getting in our way. What I would not support is adding them as a canonical enemy that it is our duty to constantly fight to prevent them from damaging Creation. And unless that happens, its purely logical for Targossas not to care quite as much about Eleusis as they do the other three that we believe actually harm Creation.

Aegoth

That makes 0 sense. Nature as an ideology is vehemently opposed to Good as an ideology because Good represents progress of civilisation, which Nature hates. Nature wants to destroy what Good is and does. Know your ideologies bro. 

Minifie

Wouldn't that mean good is really only meant to oppose nihilist chaos? 

Blujixapug

Daeir said:

No Good would essentially imply that Creation is basically dead.

Not dead, but... stagnant is the negative term, pristine is the positive one. Eternally primitive?

The Garden of Eden would have had a much easier time remaining perfect forever if that pesky duo, Adam and Eve, hadn't been around to spoil things.

Aegoth

Daeir, you are confusing the concepts of "ideology" and "force". One is very different than the other. You are talking about the forces of nature/good, and the rest of us are talking about the ideologies. Ideologically, Nature wants Good (ideology) and every other ideology eradicated so that the force of nature can flourish without impediment. That is diametrically opposed to Good, and therefore are a threat to Targ's ideology.

But i guess i'm too busy not knowing anything to understand these complex details like you obviously do, oh Achaea guru

Accipiter

Daeir said:

Good is a force akin to potential. That's it. Potential can manifest itself as "civilisation" in the progress domain, but it can manifest itself in other ways as well. Nature may find civilisation disdainful and contrary to its wishes, but that doesn't mean that it wants to destroy the entirety of Good, because that'd just be abject fucking lunacy for everyone involved. No Good would essentially imply that Creation is basically dead. There's a deeply complicated set of interactions and relationships between Nature and Good, and the debate determining "Nature as a force" vs "Nature as an ideology" is another kettle of fish entirely.

By all means, have these conversations IC so I can laugh at you for thinking you know what you're talking about there as well.

Yeah well, that is just, like, your opinion, man. Everyone has a different idea on what their pet ideology means compared to those outside the ideology. To you Good might be a force akin to potential, but to Nature if the end effects are the same as Evil, IE burning shit to the ground, then it doesn't really matter your intentions as the Forestal ideology seems to be 'don't burn shit to the ground'.

I am completely out of touch with the current Forestal RP it seems, but I think the gist of the divine mandated stuff is 'if it isn't the same as when Achaea (the planet) was created it should be removed', giving Eleusis pretty much carte blanche to attack whoever. The actual ideologies in that case don't matter, just the action of living in a city is enough provocation.

But then if this thread has taught me anything it is that there are actual events going on that I don't know anything about that has soured people on Eleusis RP, so gain of salt and all that.

Minifie

I mean, I don't think achaean evil means I have to be a jerk, slice myself to pieces et al, it's an ideology that leads to development, I'd like to think I play a very charismatic and likeable charm to evil, but I've always got ulterior motives and drives beyond the obvious. Honestly, I think I'd prefer each city to have a variety of potential pathways to the ideology and achievable goal.