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Comments
You'll notice Eleusis no long has people like Exelethril, Rom, and Iakimen. Cyrene lost Kalila. Probably more that I don't know.
This is from my experience in Hashan. The city has a unique quality of being "managed" by a combat-y core group whilst accommodating a far larger non-combatant population. It works well enough (never mind the whole Twilight mess - which wasn't combatants vs pacifists in any case).
Vis a vis Cyrene, which is managed by a pacifistic core group. Its combatant population, already small to begin with, has only gotten smaller and smaller.
I mean, it's far from being a scientifically accurate study, but there is evidence to suggest that, in the face-off between combatants vs. pacifists, one is less pleasant than the other, to the other.
This is the same argument that was used back then. The main problem here is that your method is to completely widen the division to the point where there are two very separate organisations, with entirely different goals, keeping contact to a minimum. That's dividing things further and will really only result in a continuous tug-of-war between the pro-peace and pro-war factions, one oppressing the other in turn.
Feeling like you are at the same level is a terribly subjective thing. I once asked a member of the Kin what it would take for him to feel accepted in Eleusis. He answered he could not think of any way that would make him feel accepted. If someone doesn't want to feel accepted, if they don't want to feel like they are "at the same level", then there is nothing you can do to force them to feel otherwise. Feelings are terribly difficult like that.
You're not confident that my method will work, however it's actually the first step to achieving any form of understanding. As long as the "others" remain this mysterious group that you actually know nothing about except what your group tells you about them, you'll never feel at the same level. You'll be oppressing them or feel oppressed by them. Sometimes even both.
Getting to know each other, you'll learn a lot about their views and see that you DO have a lot more in common than you think. That's how you start finding policies that, even if they're not what you want, they're at least acceptable to most people. But you have to give and take a little too. Start with accepting that the Viridian Charter doesn't mean you have to be extremists.
tl;dr: we can keep debating, but the bottom line is that I think Eleusis needs to get to know each other as individuals, and certainly not divide themselves further by pushing a misunderstood charter to one House only and leaving the other without any guidance.
Not to mention I couldn't figure out a way to give a third House a good meaning, when the Scions are already "Focused on outside influences on Nature" and the Heartwood Kin are about "Understanding, tending and protecting Nature from within". It didn't leave much room for a third.
Just don't shun those who do, and the people who are aggressive and fight should not shun the people who choose not to. Play nice!
In Mhaldor it is expected that everyone fights, but even then we understand we have people that either don't enjoy it at all OOCly, or only enjoy it in short spurts. If we're raiding Ysela will almost always join, but if it lasts 2 hours she will probably bow out at some point to go do something that is more interesting for her - and that is fine!
Everyone in the city sits down in somewhere big and full of trees and airs their concerns and thoughts.
Jeez.
Gotta get to the nitty gritty. No censorship! No hiding! NO MEERRRCCCYYYY!!!
Name: Lenn
Full name: Lenn Longshanks, Court Shadow
City: (none)
House: Cij
Level: 76
Class: Depthswalker
Mob kills: 8
Player kills: 18
Xp rank: 912
Explorer rank: 478
Meow
Those 26 deaths want to talk to you.
/Derail
What I'm saying is, this rift isn't going to disappear until that mends. It's practically impossible, because it's a very core function not only of the game, but of the faction as a whole. Even in Mhaldor, which is a theocracy for Sartan, there is an extremely diverse crowd of people. You can still have that diversity, and stand out, while still revering the gods in Eleusis for the important roles they play (note: revering does not mean worship). You all have even more chance and opportunity at diversity, but you still must acknowledge your gods for what they are, and realize that just maybe, from an IC point of view, they might have an idea of what they're talking about and their opinions could probably be pretty important. You're confusing taking into consideration an ages-old immortal's word for "obey at any cost", which is exactly why I was pointing out Gaia did not want a theocracy. Of course that's not going to be how it works. But at the moment, you're telling your gods their opinions of what they are made from matters for nothing, especially compared to your own opinions.
From the way most Eleusians treat their gods, I feel like they use an OOC mindset, which is "this is just an admin volunteer with different opinions to me I have to deal with. I will marginalize them as much as possible so that my word is above their own because -I- know Nature better than some new person," which is an incredibly toxic view. You can still absolutely run a player org while still respecting the gods you have. Every other faction does it, in fact! This is a uniquely Eleusian problem, and you will be stuck with no volunteer to help you if you keep this up, while also keeping this divide firmly in place.
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
Passivity and reactionism will rarely get you results, let alone results you want. Regardless of your point of view, you have to make things happen.
I will say that a lot of this back and forth shows that the pacifists seem to feel something is being taken away from them, as if their desires were the established standard, and other people are here to change their game. Treating people (pc's or gods) like they're here to steal your show is fundamentally flawed. Factions don't belong to anyone, and the people pushing the story forward have, in my eyes, more of a right to the steering wheel than people who want to focus on individual pursuits and interactions above everything else (individualism is not something I condemn, play the game however you want. But individualism as government policy has always been harmful to factions).
Really, I think this is why we end up with so many cases of what @Daeir talks about, where large portions of the playerbase that eschew any sort of conflict with the broader world end up in power in so many places. The people who don't want anything to happen can use the power they have to slow things down, and then when the people who actually want to see things happen get frustrated and leave, it just gives that first group more power, until they completely control the faction.
No matter who should have more of a right to the steering wheel, the game mechanics don't care. All you need to do to stay in power in a democracy is to get votes, and driving out the people who disagree with you is just as effective as actually making interesting things happen, for that.
The issue is that people think the heartwood kin are meant to be pacifists, rather than meaningful contributors. Diplomacy isn't actually the Heartwood's goal any more than combat is, in theory.
It's sort of a shame that Eleusis has a lot of potential to be a faction with a meaningful impact on the Achaean world via a hardcore ideology that actively threatens to bring ruin to cities for the advancement of Nature - but is essentially lost when the majority becomes inward-focused, not unlike becoming a Nature-themed Cyrene.
Significant progress was made on enforcing that ideology for awhile, thanks to all the work that Gaia and Alrena (plus a few others like Ellodin/Rangor put in) so Eleusis could remain relevant on the bigger stage but I guess that dwindled and it's back to square one again with the exodus/dormancy of the Gaians/Scions.
I was scratching my head when I logged in again after a month or two when I saw all the shenanigans and elections, then I was like "o fck" then left. I think Hashan is falling somewhere along these lines too, where Darkness could be the main theme but instead, most players aren't interested.
[ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]
It's clearly the perfect solution. All the people who want pacifism and zero conflict ever can move to Cyrene, leaving Eleusis for the people who actually want to do something, while those pacifist players would be positively engaged with the world compared to the Cyrenian average, as well as the classes that everyone wants back.
Long-term roleplay for the roleplay focused in Eleusis, less pacifists dragging that faction down, more pacifists in the city that's already dead, and I'd get to go sentinel. It'd be a win-win for everyone!
But not a bad solution. Runs the risk of a Cyrene vs Eleusis, however, if one huge clique moves and leaves the other clique with the actual village. They'll still feel entitled to being "my forestal RP is correct, you filthy combatants. Get the hell out my village."
If they'll move at all. Which I highly doubt because even if Cyrene goes pro-Nature (which is not Neutral whatsoever, as seen by Mhaldor vs Eleusis), the whole Nature gig is what Eleusis is supposed to be.
Even if the two major cliques are fighting over what the meaning of their org is.
As @Laniara tried to explain to Verq (I got it after a while of thinking btw, Verq is still lost because "why the hell don't they have direction?"), Eleusis needs to know what Eleusis is.
They don't know what they are as whole past "we're protectors of Nature and the natural order, but what is the correct way to do that, if making cities of stone is a mortal's natural order, but it's messing with nature which is bad BUT that's the natural order BUT it's harming nature, man!!" Which, obviously, is confusing as heck. And so you have the combatants who think combat (which is what all the other cool cats are doing) is the correct way, but the pacifists attempting to be pacifists AND combat the hurting of nature WITHOUT hurting things.
They need to find a middle ground they're all happy with, which is hard, but not as hard as it sounds.
Anyway, it's acceptance, which I'm pretty sure @Alrena already pretty much said. Eleusians are focusing too much on being individuals instead of what they are - a VILLAGE built to protect AND nurture Nature itself. It doesn't need to be a theocracy like Targ or Mhaldor to function as well those two do. They just need to accept each other. They need to learn to cooperate. They need to be a TEAM.
I play football, so it is really easy to see when a team is too focused on themselves. It can't function unless they look to their left and their right and realize that they're brothers and sisters fighting and not-fighting for the same thing. Why are they forcing their ideals on each other (pacifists saying combatants need more pacifism and combatants saying pacifists need more combatant-ism), when they should both be equally correct?
I mean, sure, the Viridian Charter can be interpreted in many different ways, and shoved to one side and deprived from another. But reading it, it seems like it should be interpreted differently by each character. It doesn't say HOW they need to do it or who is doing it right - it just says DO IT. And interpreting it in different ways is beautiful and great and grand, but not so much when you try to force your own thinking upon someone else.
But tl;Dr- Eleusis is a mass of individuals rather than a single entity as they should be ("Look, extermers! Quick, combatants protect the pacifists and throw the bad guys out as the non-fighters rejuv and replant!") and no sort of city swapping or anything will fix that. They need to accept each other and use each other's strengths while covering each other's weaknesses.
/forumRP because that's all supposed to be done IC. No mechanics, no new skills, no anything extra. Just people need to stop being assholes to each other.
We can say all we want on how one side is right and the other wrong. But at the end of the day, things are what they are. People are what they are. We have to work with that. The divide is real, not theory.
From my first post in this thread, I have asserted that the divide is not one of non-combatants vs combatants as this axis exists in every faction. The underlying cause is more about how people might feel they are not given room to exist with the continuation of their RP or take part in matters of the world because of this -unique circumstances- they are in. This however is just my POV.
My POV:
Implementing the Renaissance in Eleusis, two houses, the Scions and Heartwood are formed. All citizens - members of both houses, are also required to abide/swear oaths to the Viridian Charter. The Charter -matches- the ideals of the Scions: basically anti-civilization and expansionist Nature.
Scions will have its own non-combatants, giving lectures, doing rituals(like the blood ritual in Targ) that espouse the Charter which is supposed to identify Eleusis from that point on after the Ren. Doing so they are also expressing their own house Ideals since these ideals are identical with the Charter. From here we can simplify the situation into Scions = Eleusis.
Where then is the Heartwood's place in the village or the world? It acts as a retirement home for those who still clings to pre-Ren Eleusis. A compromise made during the planning stages of the Ren, in an attempt to accommodate both sides since an anti-civilization Eleusis never has popular support but was implemented anyway.
Problem now is this retirement home is huge, the biggest house in Sapience, frequently a few fold bigger than that of the Scions -till this day-.
Sure Heartwood members can become Hierophants, even Speakers. What they cannot or feel they cannot do is overturn the situation where they too can -truly- become part of post-Ren Eleusis, since they supposed have sworn themselves over to the Charter which again matches the ideals of the Scions and Heartwood members are not Scions. They do not hold the ideals of the Scions or they would have joined them.
Heartwood is left out of the policy making process that determines Eleusis' place in the world. The most they can do is to turn inwards and do their own rituals and lectures praising Nature and what not. Sure alot of people don't mind this situation as long as they can do their own thing. They probably don't even read the news too closely. But there exists people who wishes to break out of this giant retirement home.
@Alrena My view on the prerequisites on a healing of the disunity:
For the two houses to smile and shake hands with each other, they must be able to feel that they are each other's equals.
Right now, Scions = Eleusis, since Scions' ideals = Eleusis' ideals(Viridian Charter)
Not only are the Heartwood left out, they too have to swear/abide by the Charter so they are made to feel that they too have to be Scions even though they are not.
This is not a relationship of equals!
My proposal to move the Viridian Charter over to Scions' househall would change this unequal relationship. And since the Charter and Scions' ideals matches so well, no work needs to be done!
Such a move will not in your words, push the two houses away from each other. That is already done in the design process during the Ren when the two houses were formed. No blaming here, hindsight is 20/20, and compromises needed to be made then with the deadline of the Ren.
This change I proposed will shift Eleusis from a 2 party but with only 1 party dictating policy(since policy is locked in place - anti-civilization) to one where both parties will have a chance.
Though I cannot say the disunity in Eleusis will be gone with this move, I only hope that the divide will become one that is more professional where both sides can compete in the open, and less need for passive aggressiveness or shady methods.
It would be like... a bad example here - having both democrats and republicans and only one side holding the majority in the government and thus dictating policy at any one time, which is how a 2 party system works.
We cannot just hope that the disunity in Eleusis will go away. Or hope that Heartwood Kin will be happy with their place. Or for people to not be themselves. All this time, it has not happened. Blaming them is not productive too. Or delineating people to one side or the other and them saying one side is right the other wrong.
Another way for me to say this: WHOEVER can mend the disunity in Eleusis is RIGHT, no matter which side they are on.
@Melodie What you said makes sense but I feel they apply more to religion that cannot be seen or touched. Like Evil, Good, Chaos, Darkness. Nature is unique in a way because it can be seen. it can be touched, it is everywhere around us. People will form their own relationship with Nature as a result. You can tell them they are wrong,.. that Nature =/= nature.......... but it's not going to work. And if it is not going to work, we should move on and try something else no?