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Comments
Edit: @Marisella yes I read your description of both houses. It was well written. Thank you for it.
Preaching or debate though, oh god yes please.
Missed your post somehow. Agree with your message of tolerance for different views if healing is to begin very much.
I quote myself from earlier this thread. 'Whoever can mend the rift is right, no matter which side they are on'. It is easy for me to forget this though as I have my own bias and it gets triggered.
You talked about the founding of eleusis and I think now that the leaders of both sides are ready to lay things out in the open and find common ground(if I interpreted Rangor correctly), they should remember tha eleusis was founded to be the home for all forestals. This is even more important now than during the founding as forestals no longer have the luxury to go elsewhere. I hope leaders of both sides take special note of this even as try to experiment with new methods to invigorate the faction.
The past two years is also a valuable lesson to be taken too. Heartwood entered into something they cannot sincerely live with. So this time round, I hope they are extra aware of the implications of whatever deal they struck. Better to be firm with what is acceptable for you now, than to let whatever discontent manifest itself in the future.
Well first the would need to be this awesome being, with world-changing power and actually speak on the behalf of Nature. Impossible. They would need to this otherworldly being with the power of the Gods Themselves!!!!!1!
-gasp-
Who could it be?
But what is a Forestal, what do we ask of someone so that call themselves a forestal, which responsibilities and duties do they hold? So that it does not become a meaningless title.
Forestals should adamantly be against cities, against paving over the natural ground and building crap on top of it. They should seek to return everything into something that doesn't impede the natural state.
You don't have to love combat or raid to do this. Teach your novices that Cities Are Bad, that Nature Is Strong. Stop telling them that, hey, it's okay if your friends are living in Cyrene never mind the former forest that was there.
Also, I would like to reiterate that not all viewpoints are equal, and should not, therefore, be equally represented. Someone in Targossas who thinks that relative good = Good is wrong. Someone who thinks that Babel should be locked up because he threatens the existence of all is wrong, because Chaos is all about remaking All That Is. Factions should have a strong identity and united front, and often this means cutting away those that want to water things down into grey areas.
What I however do concede is- Since this push towards religious rule has been in place for awhile now, it means that many players who do not care for it are much more like to have already left the game. However the issue at hand is about the community in Eleusis and really should depend on the Eleusis playerbase only to determine what they will have.
Hearing from Rangor that talks are happening between the conflicting sides makes me feel like my 'job' here is done. Not that I feel I have accomplished anything concrete, but I do hope that I have brought up some things worthy of consideration, especially to those lurkers who might be listening in.
Important points I feel I have brought up or hinted at:
1) admin are not pushing cities to be run at the highest level by Gods(From the quote from admin from the quotes thread). There is still room for choice.
2) the ic/ooc roles of Gods/Patrons. Just as a god can oocly install a theocracy on behalf of players, they should also be able to remove a theocracy if that is the wish of the players. A clear separation of roles. It is not slapping a God's face to do that. Again, back when Mhaldor was the only theocracy, there are alot of Gods around then than now. You don't see them going dormant because they can't be the head of state. There are things such as Orders. They also have influences in cities even if they are not the highest voice. I imagine Gods would enjoy roleplay gaining influence instead of just having an entire city handed to them regardless of the quality of their roleplay.
3) readiness of an org for something huge like switching government type. There is nothing inherently wrong with a theocracy. What no one has mentioned is, the suitability of one for a particular org. It seems the consensus on the forums is: theocracies are good for all cities of all ideology. There is also no talk about the timeliness of instating a theocracy. Is a city(its citizens) ready for one? I feel this is important as if we get the timing/prep work wrong, we lose chunks of players and much like the situation we have today.
In fact, I personally am against theocracies, because they are far too reliant on having active volunteers in those particular god roles. From what I understand, for example, Mhaldor and Targossas stagnated heavily back when Sartan or Deucalion/Aurora weren't active.
The best scenarios are when godmins only lay down the law every once in a while, to provide a short-term Fun goal for their faction, while the management of the faction itself is left mostly to players. For example, in Eleusis's case, the players decide who the current Biggest Enemy is, who they'll tolerate for the time being, or what not. But now and again Gaia will say, "Hey, let's fully reclaim Darkenwood once and for all" and Eleusis would happily comply, because Darkness and Hashan really and truly aren't pro-Nature.
What ends up happening, unfortunately, is that players completely defy their godmin and cozy up to any and all sort of Hashani or Targossian because "I'm free to be friends with whomever I like!". No, that's not going to work. That is detrimental to the strong Nature faction that the game needs. You cannot be friends with everyone as-is: even those who you're 'friendly' with, you should seek to convert to your side.
@Mathilda Hehe, I really like the way you say this. This is actually quite nice a scenario to imagine.
So Eleusian beings friends with Hashanis, I do not find that to be anything offensive. I think such a view only arise recently as people push for factional gameplay(ie no alliances, one state vs all states). This however is really more an ooc originated push. This is good for the combat side of things, but not very interesting for the storyline, which is why in more recent public news, you only see people praising their own ideology while putting down those of others. You don't see alot of diplomacy, which I personally find interesting.
@Rangor
@Tahquil
You're talking about the works of past players in guiding the story line. That's good. But the players of today have just as much power to direct the story line, and I for one am glad that they're all leading away from a boring, buddy-buddy game world.
Has there ever been an election or referendum in which 100% of the citizenry have been content and happy? Always there will be the group who the votes didn't swing their way that will cross their arms and pout. Unfortunately, when you have the Goddess of Nature appear to tell you about Nature, you can't dismiss Her idea as meaningless. IC She is the Goddess of Nature. Period. There shouldn't be any more arguing than this. OOCly she is one of your many DMs. She is trying to run and interesting and exciting campaign for you but you keep insitsing that she's not the DM, just another player so you'll ignore her guidance and will spend your first 2 sessions piddling around the starting town instead of embarking on the quests she and the other 8 DMs have consulted and spent 3 weeks putting together for you.
Now These two quotes :
"No, you cannot force devotion/agreement, even as a God. The only way is for the two conflicting parties to work something out. Unless of course you do not mind losing players or you are perfectly willing to dismiss a group of players as 'useless' and is therefore no loss to the game if driven out, then I guess yah."
See Shallam's history of splintered internal factions, player (and god) dilution of their city identity and the resulting adminstrative decision to destroy the city and rebuilding of the Factional identity by forcibly telling the players that were seen as useless and detrimental, "Get on the Zealot train or get out of fuck town."
"I guess that's up to the community, isn't that its primary function, to determine its identity?"
Again, I'd disagree with both these statements. The identity of the of the cities and definition of the cities are determined by the administration. These are the alignments you agree to play when you are part of a city. The admin have defined the citiy identities, but the players are allowed to direct how they should go about fitting the pre-defined administrative placed city identities.
don't jump me when i bash pls
As for Cyrene, if Cyrene wants to go forestal now more power to them it would seem as a success for the forestal community in their attempts of preaching to more commune with Nature so I don't think they would have an issue with it though that is just me.
As it stands, the Heartwood-domestic and Scions-external separation of duties is not an arrangement that allows either side to understand their fellow Eleusians. Their spheres of activity are also too far apart to allow any dependencies or chance to mesh or form comradrie. It easily encourages alienation, misunderstandings and then things become 'us here and them there' instead of 'we are in this together'.
For the two houses to unite, they must share the same goal. Another way to see this is, a scion represents not only his own house, but the whole of Eleusis including Heartwood. Whatever he does must come with the full support of every Eleusian. Same for a Heartwood Kin. This is not the case now, because the houses do not share the same goal.
Scions are anti-civilization and expansionist-Nature. Heartwood are assigned - 'defenders/nurturers of Nature', which are really more activities than ideals. To achieve unity, the two houses must have the same overarching goal/ideal. Here is where a compromise can be met. Here is also where common ground must be found.
This shared goal/ideal must be one that will satisfy the RP sense of Heartwood so that they can link their pre-Ren reality to the post-Ren one they have to live in today. This was not well done before, and caused alot of unhappiness. It is not simply about being anti-Gaia, or anti-conflict as often misunderstood.
This shared goal/ideal must at the same time satisfy those who wants to be more than defenders of the forest. It must allow the raiding of cities. It must also -explain- why Eleusis raiding cities is supporting Nature or necessary. This explanation must make sense to the RP people or they will only see it as warmongering that their RP cannot in their conscience, support.
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Narrative of how this shared goal can be reached:
When the forces of Good built their new home Targossas, they created a city many times larger than needed to house their refugees, thus destroying large parts of Nature wastefully. Even though Eleusis had long accepted the right of cities to exist, it was only then that they acutely realized stronger stance against the greedy civilized world had to be taken or Nature would be in serious danger some day.
And so they began. Eleusian forces were sent out to reclaim Nature's lost lands. While the campaign met with some small success early on, it soon became clear that the cities of Sapience were already too strong to be easily defeated.
At the same time, the strain of war had aleady began to threatened the peace at home as many Eleusians grew weary and demoralized.
It was then decided that the cities were already too established and that it could no longer be denied that civilization has its place upon the world.
Resigning themselves to this fact, the Eleusians adopted a new policy. Instead of expanding into civilization, they now seek to protect the borders of Nature. If civilization cannot be eradicated, then its growth must be stopped or at least hindered whenever possible.
Thus the two houses of Eleusis evolved, as all entities must if they are to survive this ever changing world....
Scions are the military experts of Eleusis. They lead frequent raids into the cities of Achaea to demonstrate to the city-dwellers the strength and will of Nature's defenders. These raids serve to discourage the cities from making expansion into Nature's lands for should they do so, they will be met with the true military might of the Village that will make the raids look like games. These raids are also a way for Eleusian soldiers to train and gain knowledge of each city's capabilities and strategies in preparation for any actual war. (main overarching ideal: Containment of Civilization)
Heartwood takes the softer approach in their part to contribute to this new policy of containment. They are tasked to educate and influence city-dwellers the value of conserving Nature. They are also largely involved with tending to Nature though not exclusively so. Some also take part in raids under the leadership of Scions etc.(main overarching ideal: Containment of Civilization)
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Explaining raids:
It is important to explain to the people what these raids into cities(outside Mhaldor) are, so they make RP sense. Deterrent against civilization's expansion + training and intel gathering of each other's capabilities especially for cities with their own unique classes in preparation for an actual expansion into Nature, are very valid reasons that will not assail a Heartwood's sensibilities.
Raids are not wars. They last approximately a day. Wars go on for months and years. A way for combatants to train just like how hunters sometimes wipe out entire communuties to train themselves.
If this new way of looking at raids is accepted, then raids can cease to become 'warmongering' with no RP justification. Other avenues of approach towards the same goal can be conducted in parallel with raids, like educating/trade/diplomacy.
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Solving contradictions:
Since Eleusis now accept that civilization has its place in the world, it is no longer as hypocritical for them to use swords or classes or whatever technology from civilization. Eleusis won't have to deal with this argument anymore.
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RP justification in itself is not enough. Heartwood must also be part of the whole raiding business not apart from it. They must be given some say, since they have to bear the consequences of raids when retaliation comes. A veto power is thus given to them:
For every 5 year term, Heartwood has the power/option to exempt 2 cities(outside Mhaldor) from raids for the duration of the term. This means that at any one time, Eleusis can raid a minimum of 3 cities. To prevent perma-exemption, no city can be exempted for more than two terms in a row.
This gives Heartwood:
1) a limited way to control the amount of repercussions, since a city that isn't raided is less likely to attack Eleusis.
2) focus military force on choice targets.
3) take friendlier approaches with exempted targets.
4) a role on the world stage. A diplomatic tool to RP with cities. eg: when Eleusis' military is strong, a badly raided city might buy exemption in exchange of lecture rights in the city or a signed agreement to not expand into Nature for the duration of the exemption, posted to public post. This is of course dependent on playerbase overall willingness to RP.
5) Most importantly, a way to include Heartwood. Equals must share power.
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Implementation:
The statement that Eleusis is about the containment of Civilization must be reflected in newcomers introduction clearly. It must be imparted to newcomers from the start the importance of this goal. Without containment, civilization will just grow and grow. Explain everything clearly from the start, which will make RP sense and does not clash with their own perception about Nature(it should not, since in the real world, Civilization has indeed grown out of control), so that future division are less likely to happen.
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On theocracy and Gaia:
Since Gaia was originally used as a vehicle to change Eleusis' identity to allow it to become more than 'defenders only when the forest in under threat', if this plan can be adopted by both sides, satisfying the needs of both sides, then the whole contention of Gaia or theocracy naturally becomes moot. I imagine most people are not really anti-Gaia. They just dont like the way the switch was implemented. OOCly, they know Gaia is just a proxy, but ICly Gaia is the front so they have to resist Her in game in order to be sane with their RP.
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PS @Tahquil I get what you are saying. Since admin does not appear ready to make Eleusis into another crater, that is where I work from. You gave very good points. alot depends on how much admin are willing to narrow down what a faction is about. I believe this to be a balancing act. Too specialized a faction means all the non specialized people have to go to Cyrene or stop playing. Too little specialization and players feel their faction is too scattered to do anything.
But see viridian charter for common grounds, oath, help Eleusis and precepts for what rules we must all follow. And the council sets current policy, based on members both houses have elected in Eleusis "democratic" elections. What we may be missing is a way for Eleusis to keep the houses in check if they "stray" from the so called common ground and policies that are set. That needs to be written in the precepts as laws.
@Linton