A way to make Eleusian RP make sense for -everyone-

Alrena

I was halfway a pretty long post which consisted of some near-hostility, because it really upsets me when people blame a really great volunteer who spent a lot of effort making some really neat things for Eleusis. Instead, I am going to say this.


When I was Speaker I changed Eleusis' direction, because make no mistake it was player driven and never forced by Gaia, I said (not in exactly those words, but something along the lines of) the following about it:

"Eleusis must be more than simple defenders of the forests alone. The goal of Eleusis should be to serve Nature, using whatever strengths and talents they may have."

Now do tell me how this statement, this direction... is in any way nonsensical for any forestal?

Before you cite the Viridian Charter again, that was approved by the entire council at the time. This included Minxie, Ravien and Oceana. They all approved of the Charter after Gaia gave interpretations of each guidelines, showing that even the guideline about the falsities of iron and stone didn't need to mean more than "don't openly approve of people building big ass cities". Instead, people keep saying it means Eleusis has to burn all cities down. You don't. Isn't there a CHELP file still lying around with Gaia's original interpretations?


Pacifists is not the right word, really. There are plenty of peace-loving forestals who understood the Charter and were okay with it. And plenty of people who fought but still spread misinformation. Honestly a typical aspect of this divide is the constant spouting and blindly repeating of blatant falsehoods and half truths. At the core were a few toxic people that I won't name here, who wanted everything to stay the same and either didn't understand or want to understand that the changes aren't so bad.

What made it worse is that a lot of the people who understood and accepted that there was a place for everyone in Eleusis all ended up in one House, and the people who didn't understand/accept this ended up in the other.

Honestly, I could write a book on Eleusian politics of that period. Or an autobiography.

Cailin

Can't we fix this?

Krypton

The current stubbornness/selfishness displayed by some players pretty much impedes any chance for self-mediation.

Nazihk

Linton said:

Or are the 'violent' people so unconfident of their ideals that they must rely on this free win card that they deem backed by the admin? Are they so unconfident that they will not promote/roleplay their ideals on a level playing field to the bigger entity that is Eleusis?

No, it's just that this doesn't work. Not because there is anything inherently weaker about the militant RP, but because you will almost never convince the non-violent types that a violent stance is called for.

You can try and try and try, but most of them just plain do not like combat and so they'll never change their mind. Same reason you can never change the mind of the combatants; they like combat and won't agree to a role that reduces it.

Mathilda

Eleusis has two choices:

(1) embrace the volunteer godmins that it gets, and have awesome stuff

or

(2) keep them at arm's length, after which they'll quickly lose interest and move on. No awesome stuff.

From my time in Eleusis (both on Mathilda, and an alt I made because druid), the Viridian Charter isn't really a Gaian theocracy, like what a very stubborn sector of Eleusis would frequently say. It is, simply, a framework that allows Eleusis to be more than just a defender. The only reason why this stubborn section of the Eleusian playerbase goes against it is because it all happened with the support of the most recent Gaia. They pushed the panic button, "Oh no, theocratic takeover!" without giving it a chance to grow.

Melodie

This thread makes me angry.

The charter was made and approved during my time in Eleusis, which was a fair while before the Ren.

Please treat your volunteers with less suspicion and more support. Even if you don't understand why they did something, talk to them about it. You're in a place where such was not only possible, but very encouraged. 

Gaia took so many punches for you guys. Miss you, Gaia.

Coamenel

I missed a lot of events while I was inactive, for a good 200-ish IG years, so I missed the re-doing of houses and the introduction of the Viridian Charter. I started out in the Sentinel Guild got moved into the Sentinels of Nature, slumbered and finally ended up in the Scions. Basically, I have to analyze a situation based on what was said here (amongst other places). From what I've read, @Alrena post is pretty much right on the money.

I think it's important to note that Eleusis never was very unified during the time of the original houses, at least not from what I have seen. I was in the Sentinels, and only joined Eleusis because it made sense to join. It was house before village. While I suspect other factions were the other way around.

I think that putting the Charter in the Scions househalls and call it their ideology solely is a very good demonstration of why Eleusis got FURTHER divided. There is a group of people in Eleusis who say 'fuck you very much' to the Charter and primarily the interpretation of the fourth 'iron and stone' tenet. My problem with that group is two-fold. Firstly, they do not wish to speak out in public, but remain plotting and scheming in the shadows. It has calmed down quite a bit now that we are under pressure from Mhaldor, but I'm sure it will return once that is done with. Second, I have not spoken to a single individual, or heard of one, that actually thought that a 'passive' interpretation of that tenet was a no-go. Most 'combat clique' people don't really care if you don't want to join in raids and shit. So I really don't understand why we, the combat clique, are being driven away so badly.

Can we fix it? I doubt that, I've been in Eleusis for well over ten years and there was always a bit of a tension between groups. I think in order to fix the division, both groups should start to appreciate each other. I've been told that some people are bitter over us striking back at a raiding party because by doing so, we are forcing them to help defend when that in turn backfires at us. In other words, if we are under attack, please don't attack back. The point is, for some people, that is what achaea is mainly about. Striking and striking back. I myself care very little for rituals and whatnot, but they exist and I accept that, hell I even participate in them. So why grief people over doing what -they- like? As I said, a little appreciation or at least understanding for the 'other side' would go a long way I reckon.

Somewhat but not completely related note to the admin:
Can we please have Artemis back? There is at least a group of people in Eleusis that would love to have an active Matron back!

Cailin

Coamenel said:

a lot of stuff

This just makes me so sad. It's just as simple as both groups appreciating each other and not making each other be like them. I'm a new player obviously and don't know what all has gone down in the past, but it seems SO easy to fix. If people would just cooperate.

Nicola

I won't comment on this specific instance, but I would like to say a little something about patrons in general:

99% of the changes that are made in orgs are done so by the patron at the behest of the players. A lot of the time these are fun little additions, a pottery shop, a cool new scroll added to a denizen's stock. Sometimes these are roleplay devices to enhance and promote organisational play. Almost always these come with an event of some sort.

This is a lot of work, but it's what the patrons do. The key takeaway is that these changes are almost always by player request, your org leadership leading as they see fit.

Most of the org (if they're uninvolved in the decision making process) see a god showing up, or a denizen moving about, and then something changes. Often this is met with raves, but more than occasionally there is a great deal of suspicion and unhappiness in a patron seen to be "meddling" in an org when they are actually enacting the requests of the player leaders.

This is massively demoralising when as a volunteer you're using the majority of your time to make changes that the players of an org request, and then you get to bear the brunt of the backlash on forums, on clans, in emails, and even ICly.

I will end this with a final note: It's not very fun to play or lead in orgs that have no patron. You might get requests enacted, but a patronless org is at the behest of other patrons having the spare time and will to do your stuff too. Treating patrons in the above way is a very good way to find yourself without one, they're volunteering their free time because they love Achaea.

Krypton

Harmony in Achaea died with Tarah, obvi!

Cailin

Krypton said:

Harmony in Achaea died with Tarah, obvi!

Bring Her back. It's the only way.

Tahquil

Just going to throw out that Gaia was amazing. IC she had time for people even outside the orgs she owned. As an admin she was extrodinarily approachable and helpful, going above and beyond her role to assist people (well meat least).

I rarely praise people, but she was exceptional.

Aegoth

Tahquil said:

Just going to throw out that Gaia was amazing. IC she had time for people even outside the orgs she owned. As an admin she was extrodinarily approachable and helpful, going above and beyond her role to assist people (well meat least).

I rarely praise people, but she was exceptional.

Too bad Eleusis didn't think so

Kiet

The real reason this divide exists uniquely in Eleusis is because other cities figured out a long time ago that chasing out your combatants is a bad idea. The 'pacifists' in Eleusis aren't just pacifists, as Alrena alluded to. They want to control the city much more than any imaginary theocracy they've made up, and they make the game actively unpleasant for anyone not with them.

Melodie

Actively unpleasant is a real downplay on what those with that particular mindset can do to people outside of their circle.

I only kept a few logs, and I was only there for 20 IC years, but good god.

Blujixapug

Aegoth said:

holy fuck this needs a tldr

tl;dr of Linton's post:

- people play the game differently
- every city has non-combat players, so why is there more friction in Eleusis?
- it's not really about pacifists vs combatants
- 'pacifists' PK sometimes in zerg rushes, showing they aren't really pacifists
- Eleusis's Renaissance was divisive and alienated some people
- the Viridian Charter made Eleusis overtly anti-civ
- Nature is (was) non-secular, which is part of its appeal for some people
- perception that Gaia imposed her vision at the expense of Nature being secular and Eleusis being broadly inclusive
- the presumption that the division would slide in favour of the pro-Charter group proved false
- views Heartwood Kin House as a placatory dismissal of the old guard; unhappy about this
- most people join a community to be with like-minded people and share a common goal
- objects to "Nature will inevitably triumph in the end" dogma as a framing device for roleplaying in Achaea, as it downplays the stakes of the story
- Gaia went dormant
- objects to those who dislike Eleusis post-Ren being told to leave
- everyone should get along
- everyone can't get along because the Viridian Charter only favours one side
- suggests Viridian Charter be shifted to the Scions House estate, made Scion House ideology rather than Eleusis ideology
- why are 'violent' Eleusians more valid than 'peaceful' ones? why do violent ones get to dictate policy? why should peaceful ones be marginalised instead of violent ones?
- 'violent' forestals got a "free win card" because they were backed by the admin, without necessarily having the superior ideology
- if Viridian Charter is shifted to Scions House rather than Eleusis, this will make Eleusis a truly player-run city, rather than a city where players are limited to the niche assigned by admins via things like the Viridian Charter; in this Eleusis, rival factions could 'compete' and be able to steer the Eleusian zeitgeist, rather than being limited to one approach

stl;dr:

- a group of people feels alienated by Eleusis Renaissance and surrounding changes
- suggestions on what they would prefer

Frederich

In this thread:

Post logs of Old Gaia being amazing.

Linton

I wish to apologize if my post came off as blaming the volunteer behind Gaia for the current state of Eleusis. I have suggested in my post that the change made in Eleusis during the Ren was at the ooc level, a project by a few players. This might be lost in the very long post or not definitive enough. My apologies.

I also do not blame the originators of this modern Eleusis. I am sure they meant well and wanted to make the Nature faction more interesting. While we may agree or disagree on where things could have been done better, or to what degree the opinion of the forestals matters, one thing I believe we can absolutely agree with is that the divide exists and that it is hurting the gameplay in the faction.

Because this is an RP game, the current situation in Eleusis is acceptable in a sense. This scenario, where the majority is marginalized while a minority holds and lock up political power using religion, is common in stories and the real world afterall. However, those people marginalized fighting back is a reasonable episode too in such a story, and if we are to be fair, we should accept that instead of just blaming one side oocly for being difficult or worse when they try to fight back in the game.

With my long post, I have wished to perhaps help those who are unhappy with the current situation see that they too can do something to move this story along and hopefully make the playing atmosphere in Eleusis better: The most important factor I have wished to convey being, the admin is not necessarily on anyone's side. Gods need not be at the top of a city's hierarchy if that is not desired or helpful to the faction -at the time-.

I am not talking about rejecting your patron here. Patrons have an ooc role that is separate from their ic ones. Twilight for instance is the patron of Hashan and as of right now, His ic relationship with the leadership of Hashan are that of partners and not one of Hashanis being subordinate to Him. This could change and flux in the future - ranging from finally holding the reins to Hashan or getting kicked out(yes there is precedent of mortal leadership rejecting their patrons eg Akari Lucoster-Twilight, Druids-Gaia) but alot depends on the players' play and creativity - like learning from the failure of their recent coup, the Darkwalkers may try to gather popularity more slowly and more covetly in the coming days. Those who fear a Darkness takeover may have their own countermeasures planned. Meanwhile everyone, Darkwalker or not, appears to be getting along there. There is no banishment of those involved in the coup. No talk of you or you should leave Hashan. Elections result are respected. Everyone has expressed their views. Life then goes on. This level of maturity and allowance can be in Eleusis too. We are the same playerbase afterall. I like to believe Twilight is not put off by this temporary ic setback and that he never expected Hashan to be handed over to him on week one of his return without any gameplay.

tl;dr: You can make the change to make your faction 'better'. Existing limitations are not unassailable. They can be overturned if you have the political will. Having the support of the people really helps too.

Kiet

You're living in an alternate reality if you believe the 'pacifists' in Eleusis are the ones being repressed.

Melodie

Linton said:

With my long post, I have wished to perhaps help those who are unhappy with the current situation see that they too can do something to move this story along and hopefully make the playing atmosphere in Eleusis better: The most important factor I have wished to convey being, the admin is not necessarily on anyone's side. Gods need not be at the top of a city's hierarchy if that is not desired or helpful to the faction -at the time-.

While the italicized is most certainly true, the way many Eleusians have gone about this is counter-productive to the faction and tends to be more focused on their own self interests, with the exception of the bolded, which I'll get to in a minute. While there are some excellent exceptions, the majority of Eleusians I encountered who fall into the 'pacifist' label (peaceful might be a better word here I guess) tend to not only shun combatants - or really, anyone who does not think like them - but will actively go out of their way to make those people miserable purely for the sake of it.

A particular example that comes to mind is about five IC years into my time in Eleusis, there were several letters being sent to the then-Speaker Ravien and to the then-leader of the Sylvans Ainia about my "activities", most of which was a Hashani serpent hired by Eleusian(s) to spy on me and report back anything I did/said, which if at all possible is then twisted or taken out of context to mean something else entirely. This happened on 4-6 separate occasions, all because I was a visible supporter of Gaia as Matron and the general depth-inducing activities Eleusians were up to at the time. The only reason I know about maybe half of that is because I was told OOC about a year and a half later later, well into my time within Mhaldor. This is just one example of that time period for me, and I'm pretty sure I had it light compared to others.

Now, as for the bolded, this is a particular mindset of "old" Eleusis I have never been able to understand or empathize with, as hard as I've tried. You aren't a theocracy, it's true. Gaia even went way out of her way to state, several times, that she never intended to make Eleusis one. But Gaia IS directly adapted from and apart of Nature. So is Artemis. To say either need not be at the top of the hierarchy at "certain times" is just ... unthinkable. You have two Gods tied directly into what you serve, which is far more than just some forests, and you want to tell others and teach your novices that those Gods don't really matter if you decide to? Yes, Gods do come and go and yes, Gods do die, but when they are alive, they still are a manifestation of the very thing you choose to serve. The sooner Eleusis understands and embrace that, the sooner things can perhaps start healing.

Let me restate it: There are exceptions to the concept of Eleusians as I posted above. Some I know of. Some I probably do not. But it is an overwhelmingly popular attitude I simply could not abide by as someone who not only roleplays a strongly service-oriented character, but as a player who could not stand by and watch a faction she was apart of be so abusive to anyone outside of the "circle", admin included.

This is ultimately why I left Eleusis, for the sake of my own sanity, as much as I tried to make it work. It's also why I never intend to play any kind of character there ever again, until I get real evidence this sort of toxic mindset is a dying breed.

Alrena

Honestly, while that post seems a lot more reasonable, that's no way to close the divide. The balance of power would just shift, unless one side entirely gave up and abandoned the village. No matter which side did the latter, it would be a loss for Eleusis.

If you want to close that divide, you need to start pushing towards each other, not pulling harder away. I'll be the first to admit I made mistakes when I was in charge and pushed for this change of direction. I lost my patience and burned some bridges to cooperate with some Houseleaders and as a result had zero support from them when certain people spread blatant lies around. I accept my share in that. But that does not change the fact that it was these people that started actively fighting against Gaia and their city leadership in any way they could, using underhanded methods, while their House leaders stood by and did nothing. In contrast, Scion leadership (notably Ravien and Minxie) were urging Scions to not answer those provocations and reminding them that they were on the same side.

Maybe things changed now, and both sides are fighting each other now. It doesn't really matter. If you want the divide to close, each and every Eleusian can start with themselves. Talk to the other side. Find common ground. Above all else, believe that there IS room for both sides in Eleusis. You'll never be forced to raid or defend. So why force pacifism on others? Let them fight and deal with the consequences.

Lastly, as for Nature overcoming all in the end, that is a typically Gaian belief that was being ironed out. It was never something for all of Eleusis to rally behind. Eleusis' goal is (or should be) to serve Nature, in any way they can. Whether that's quiet patrolling and tending to Nature, or going out and murdering enemies of Nature and rekking the cities to let blessed plants take over. Both are good. Start accepting that and you'll be fine.

Iniar

People should only claim to be a pacifists when they have actual power to withhold.

Otherwise, they are just less able. Differently able-d, if you like.

Peace is not an option for them; it's the externally enforceable default.

Pacifist is such a misnomer.

Krypton

Those of us who've been around long enough will remember when "Pacifist" was distinctly associated with the God of Peace, Oneiros -- like Bambi, who didn't fight and hunted no sentients whatsoever (for a long time, anyway).

Nazihk

Pacifism back then was meaningless because of permanent Grace.

Pacifism only means something when it is an actual choice with an actual cost. If you can't fight, then you're not a pacifist. You're just a wuss, because you're not actually making a choice. Same with Grace. If you hide behind it you're not a pacifist. You're just a coward, because you're not paying any price for your principles.

Cailin

Nazihk said:

Iniar said:

People should only claim to be a pacifists when they have actual power to withhold.

Otherwise, they are just less able. Differently able-d, if you like.

Peace is not an option for them; it's the externally enforceable default.

Pacifist is such a misnomer.

Pacifism only means something when it is an actual choice with an actual cost. If you can't fight, then you're not a pacifist. You're just a wuss.

Okay this makes no sense. As someone who doesn't really like combat, but fights anyways, I definitely made a choice. I made a choice to try to learn combat. So called "Pacifists" make the same choice-- but to not learn combat. And not necessarily because they're scared, but simply because they don't like it.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with disliking combat. Only when certain people extend that to disliking combatants. (Ugh)

(PS sorry for the wonky quote boxes)

Atalkez

I find it hard to believe people dislike combat, considering combat based mechanics are prevalent in nearly every game being released today. Whether you choose to accept it or not, the people that enjoy combat also are the ones that help shape mechanics in the game around you. Being good at combat isn't about killing people, it's about understanding what they can do, how they can do it, and how you can avoid it. Find something misbalanced, you can help get it changed. That's huge in a game like this.

I think people are terrified of the wall that you have to climb for combat. Whether that is because they don't to invest the time, or they don't want to lose the xp, or they just would rather type cuddle randomEleusian22 all day - but I find it hard to believe people don't participate because they 'don't like it' on such a wide scale. People dislike like things they aren't good at, or don't understand. Why would you choose to not learn the one skill in the game that actually allows your RP to matter? Can't talk about being the best theology if everytime you actually fight you lose.

Cailin

Sorry. I just don't like combat. It's okay, but that's it. And I'm happy so many other people like it. But I find my amusement in the 100 other things there are to do in this game. (Seriously-- this game is amazingly rich in things to do! )


Edit: also, my core theology (Compassion) does not hinge on fighting people. I would rather impact people through the power of the tongue. I like to think I may have had an impact on Ainly's journey... maybe I did, maybe I didn't.

Mathilda

Tarah's dead. RIP Compassion. Long live Cruelty!

Not all non-combatants are anti-combatants. But, almost exclusively, pacifists are anti-combatant.

Look at Cyrene. It supposedly does not ban combat. Little by little, however, the pacifist majority has enacted laws and promulgated policies that technically doesn't ban combat but has essentially boxed in combatants. Hence, been hemorrhaging combatants (and the Shield is subsequently dying out).


PS For those who fight despite not knowing the difference between pot and potash, we call those heroes.

Lenn

Hi! Debating IC politics and philosophy is more fun IC, so I'll talk about OOC things OOCly instead.

Daeir: Not everyone logs in for conflict. I see this attitude on the forum a lot, and it's actually rather unpleasant to read. For a more blatant example, see Atalkez's post below that I'm also responding to, where he implies the only thing that matters is PvP, which is both insulting and blatantly absurd.

Atalkez: Other games are better at PvP. Sorry, but it's undeniably true. There are just so many better options. I come to Achaea for what it's actually got that's rare, and I suspect many do the same: immersive roleplay backed with a large enough population to enjoy it. The sandbox nature helps a lot too, of course.

One of Achaea's biggest selling points is its playerbase. Please stop insulting other players, saying they have to be stamped out to improve the game. In a room full of people trying to have fun, please stop trying to shout "NO! YOU ARE DOING FUN WRONG! STOP IT!" ^^;

Linton

Appreciate the accounts(Alrena and Melodie) of unpleasant encounters with the 'pacifist' faction around the Ren and post-Ren period. Hopefully they are less prevalent now.

Thank you too for the feedback about the division issue and possible solution or improvement the players in Eleusis could try. I believe that before any healing can take place, a level playing field is a prerequisite as I believe when people felt coerced into something they do not believe in, they will more likely display worse versions of themselves. My idea is that, by leveling the playing field between the Scions and the Heartwood Kin, allowing members of both sides to have the chance to dictate Eleusis' policies, we may see a more professional relationship between the two sides. I feel optimistic that if this is allowed to happen, then we will see less 'underhand methods' or passive aggressiveness, as both side will then have the space to exercise their ingenuity out in the open. Such a situation would be more favourable than how it is now where the Scions have the Charter which mirrors their ideals to back them up, while the Heartwood are not allowed(or they do not feel they are allowed) to exercise or promote peaceful options such as diplomacy with outside entities as that would seem to go against the Charter.

@Alrena Much as I like the idea that the division will heal themselves if everyone 'get to know each other' and 'find common ground', I am not confident that that in itself will work. To find common ground, they have to be and feel that they are at the same level first.

@Melodie I am not optimistic too about waiting for people to accept the idea that Nature Gods are manifestation of Nature and therefore we should obey them as they can only be right. (I personally do not agree, as the Gods in Achaea are fallible, like Gaia actually went mad(canon) at one point in time. More importantly, if everyone just follow a God's mind, it would feel like there are no characters that can stand out in this story that is Achaea. However all this is irrelevant to the subject and just my personal views). I do not believe the rift can wait for this to happen.