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A way to make Eleusian RP make sense for -everyone-

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  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2017
    This is really a conversation better had IC, but you're not entirely wrong.

    I describe it as "living will" because it makes it a lot easier to picture how it is if you think of Creation as something alive, with Good being the sort of unconscious effort to continually improve itself like how muscle grows stronger when you use it, etc. It isn't intelligent on its own, it has to be guided, so it sort of unconsciously knows this and gives rise to the birth of Divinity to help support it - ie, the Bloodsworn Gods. Sarapis made Deucalion a thing (as Dunamis), and the multiverse spawned Aurora on its own at the same time as Apollyon during the collision of Ethian and Abaddon. Could feasibly say she was born of Good in that regard.

    But, yeah. A Creation without Good would feasibly succumb to even the diminished effects of Entropy and Discord, as Babel has gone absolutely fucking nuts and is no longer mediating their impact on Creation, as evidenced by the Outer Reaches being a horrible clusterfuck of void-doomed worlds beyond all hope of repair. Caefir shit touches really heavily on this and the entire thing is BALLER AS FUCK.

    So Good is essentially the "we don't want everyone to die" faction, Evil is the "we also don't want everyone to die but the only way to not be shit is to follow our shirtless man-god", Darkness is the "this multiverse is shit and my god can remake it better" faction, Nature is the "the natural world is pretty okay as it is so fuck everything else" faction and Chaos is the "WE'RE ALL FUCKING DEAD WEEEEEEEEEEEE" faction.

    None of them are wrong, either. That's the best bit about Achaea's universe, IMO. So many opposing forces vying for superiority and not a single one of them is intrinsically wrong from a narrative perspective.
    Torinn
  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Posts: 1,833Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:

    No Good would essentially imply that Creation is basically dead.
    Not dead, but... stagnant is the negative term, pristine is the positive one. Eternally primitive?

    The Garden of Eden would have had a much easier time remaining perfect forever if that pesky duo, Adam and Eve, hadn't been around to spoil things.
    image
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I dunno if I'd say primitive. Death is probably a better term for it. Without Good continually adding things to the multiverse via potential, even things that intrinsically harm it one way or another, it'd ultimately end up spiralling headlong into the decay that has already pretty badly fucked its edges up. If you could even kill Good to begin with. If you slaughtered every Targossian, destroyed the city, erased every memory of them - then did this all again for every other plane/planet in the multiverse that has a Good stronghold on it (GOOD FUCKING LUCK DOING THIS TO CELESTIA, even we're afraid of those fuckers and they're on our side), you'd still not really put a dent in it.

    And that also makes Darkness very very scary, because Twilight is probably the only Divine outside of the Logos with any inkling of how to make this a thing.
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,488Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir, you are confusing the concepts of "ideology" and "force". One is very different than the other. You are talking about the forces of nature/good, and the rest of us are talking about the ideologies. Ideologically, Nature wants Good (ideology) and every other ideology eradicated so that the force of nature can flourish without impediment. That is diametrically opposed to Good, and therefore are a threat to Targ's ideology.

    But i guess i'm too busy not knowing anything to understand these complex details like you obviously do, oh Achaea guru
  • AccipiterAccipiter Posts: 345Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Daeir said:
    Good is a force akin to potential. That's it. Potential can manifest itself as "civilisation" in the progress domain, but it can manifest itself in other ways as well. Nature may find civilisation disdainful and contrary to its wishes, but that doesn't mean that it wants to destroy the entirety of Good, because that'd just be abject fucking lunacy for everyone involved. No Good would essentially imply that Creation is basically dead. There's a deeply complicated set of interactions and relationships between Nature and Good, and the debate determining "Nature as a force" vs "Nature as an ideology" is another kettle of fish entirely.

    By all means, have these conversations IC so I can laugh at you for thinking you know what you're talking about there as well.
    Yeah well, that is just, like, your opinion, man. Everyone has a different idea on what their pet ideology means compared to those outside the ideology. To you Good might be a force akin to potential, but to Nature if the end effects are the same as Evil, IE burning shit to the ground, then it doesn't really matter your intentions as the Forestal ideology seems to be 'don't burn shit to the ground'.

    I am completely out of touch with the current Forestal RP it seems, but I think the gist of the divine mandated stuff is 'if it isn't the same as when Achaea (the planet) was created it should be removed', giving Eleusis pretty much carte blanche to attack whoever. The actual ideologies in that case don't matter, just the action of living in a city is enough provocation.

    But then if this thread has taught me anything it is that there are actual events going on that I don't know anything about that has soured people on Eleusis RP, so gain of salt and all that.
    AegothPrythe
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,921Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I mean, I don't think achaean evil means I have to be a jerk, slice myself to pieces et al, it's an ideology that leads to development, I'd like to think I play a very charismatic and likeable charm to evil, but I've always got ulterior motives and drives beyond the obvious. Honestly, I think I'd prefer each city to have a variety of potential pathways to the ideology and achievable goal. 


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2017
    Aegoth said:
    Daeir, you are confusing the concepts of "ideology" and "force". One is very different than the other. You are talking about the forces of nature/good, and the rest of us are talking about the ideologies. Ideologically, Nature wants Good (ideology) and every other ideology eradicated so that the force of nature can flourish without impediment. That is diametrically opposed to Good, and therefore are a threat to Targ's ideology.

    But i guess i'm too busy not knowing anything to understand these complex details like you obviously do, oh Achaea guru
    Ideologically, Nature wants to flourish. Good does not have to be eradicated for it to flourish. There is a conceivable way of "turning" Good's ethos and approach towards one that is in harmony with Nature and ultimately achieves the same goal - the cooperation during the Reckoning is a prime, ICly established example of this being a thing. So, you're wrong, which is entirely unsurprising.

    The same also applies vice versa. Good and Nature are the only two factions to share a common point in that regard. Player (and Divine) mandate can drive that wedge apart, which is what has happened lately, but there's nothing forcing things to be this way. Eleusis is not a theocracy the same way Targossas is, so that mandate is only as effectual as its leadership or active constituent desires. Targossian "aggression" towards Eleusis is only limited to their own aggression in the first place as well, there's no huge drive from an ideological perspective to go anywhere near what the forestals are doing with Nature unless it infringes upon Good, which it doesn't so long as it isn't about destroying Targossas because cities.

    This is all abundantly obvious and I feel dumb for even having to type it out.

  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,488Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Are you talking about the Divinely enforced cooperation where Yudhi burned down EI and Eleusis went "Welp, guess we have to join you, or else"? cuz lol. But you conveniently skewing the facts to suit your worldview is nothing new, or surprising.

    Your statement about there being nothing "forcing" things to be hostile between loosis and targ can be said for Mhaldor and Targ, or Targ and Hashan. It's painfully obvious, and I feel dumb for having to point it out. All my sighs
    Ysela
  • AntidasAntidas Posts: 1,465Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You know better than to start accusing me of that shit, and I'm solidly with Daeir on this one. Nothing is forced between Mhaldor and Targ - what Mhaldor does can easily be explained to have a negative impact on Creation, just like you guys can explain it in such a way that it has a positive one. The point here is that there is an easy and justifiable explanation. Hashan and Targ's relationship is slightly more complicated due to the complicated views of Twilight, but the explanation remains.

    There is no such obvious and justifiable explanation for conflict between Targossas and Eleusis that does not require a rather large stretch of justification to make it work. Yes, there are justifications for it, but each one eventually results in a question that has no answer other than "cuz we felt like it." If you can come up with a justification that can give a reasonable and decent answer to any question I have about it, then I'll be glad to go back to the Zelda hole I've crawled out of to argue about this.

    JeslynLaedhaHalos
  • AnedhelAnedhel Posts: 2,367Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You people know that Aegoth's just a troll, right? :D 
  • AccipiterAccipiter Posts: 345Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Antidas I feel like you are coming from it from a self-centred place, not meaning that to be insulting. The justification from the Eleusian side can just be the same as the justification for any other city - "Any large gathering of Sentience displaces Nature". There is no bigger stretch needed, though a priority system put in place would practicably put you second from the bottom.

    That you think that Good's actions are beneficial and see Chaos' or Evil's as not doesn't change how Nature feels about them. If Good is potential like Daeir said then you could easily subvert the current sort-of-neutral-to-Good attitude Nature has by saying the potential Good espouses is an unNatural diversion and must be eradicated. 

    You don't have to force the antagonism, you just have to realize that the things your see as essential to the world in your RP aren't even seen as a positive at all to some people. It reminds me of the old Church who would go one about protecting all of Creation and Forestals saying if everyone just went away we wouldn't need protecting. There are valid arguments that any non-Nature organization is actively harming Nature merely by its existence, so in the mind mind of Eleusians Good and Nature shouldn't be co-existing in the long term, though granted the are practicalities to observe.
  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,495Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Clearly you all now see why the universe is such a clusterfuck and needs changing. Join Twilight now and make a positive change :)



    Bade
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,488Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Poppycock. I'm never wrong. You're all delusional. 
    AntidasYsela
  • AntidasAntidas Posts: 1,465Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Accipiter maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but what I mostly heard is a lot of very good reasons for why Eleusis has every right to be hostile with Targossas; I absolutely agree with this sentiment. As Alrena said above, we fucked up a river and shit, giving Eleusis plenty of reason to hate us. What you didn't say anything about, though, is a decent reason for Targossas to be hostile with Eleusis beyond simply reacting to their attacks, which is what we already do.

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's pretty weird that the hostility is so one sided. Targossas views Eleusis as a trifling annoyance at absolute worst, whereas we're apparently a primary antagonist a la Mhaldor if what Alrena said is indicative of common opinion.

    Probably should escalate that conflict to get it well out of the "maybe" zone if you want it to be a real thing.
  • SarathaiSarathai Posts: 2,139Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Probably should escalate that conflict to get it well out of the "maybe" zone if you want it to be a real thing.
    It took Eleusis destroying every Aurora shrine in Reaches and taking over the area for about three days or so to get Targ to respond for more than a couple of days.

    I actually found it kind of funny. We raided, we skirmished, we ritually sacrificed denizens, we insulted in very public forums, and got little to no response in the long term. But laying a finger on those shrines? Game on.


    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



    LiyanePrythe
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I mean, ESCALATE it. Get Artemis to bring some devastation down on an isle of Targossas or overgrow one entirely with thorns or something. Something with Divine mandate will get notice, and there's no way we can't not respond in kind.
    KiahLiyane
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,488Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think it's less that Targossas has no reason to act aggressively to Eleusis of its own accord, and more that it doesn't WANT to. It's like a very heavy case of stockholm syndrome
    Alrena
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nope, it's purely the fact that there's no concrete reasoning as of yet to declare them as a "hated" enemy over a faction suffering from a cult incursion, especially when so many of the pacifist Eleusians are vaguely sympathetic to mending relations.

    You want full on hate? Get the Divine mandate and do something bad enough to Targossas that it'll never forget, something that will pad away the engendered good-will from the Reckoning cooperation. You have to have mandate for this. No amount of dicking around with shrines, guards, totems or whatever will achieve that end. There's plenty of precedent to make it happen.
  • AlrenaAlrena Posts: 637Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Daeir said:
    I mean, ESCALATE it. Get Artemis to bring some devastation down on an isle of Targossas or overgrow one entirely with thorns or something. Something with Divine mandate will get notice, and there's no way we can't not respond in kind.
    This time, I think Aegoth is right. All the aggression against Targossas was very much supported by both Artemis and Gaia. A blood ritual was held in your city, shrines were demolished, citizens butchered and rooms destroyed. Eleusis even took the Eastern Reaches for Artemis. But you need the admins to escalate the conflict for you? Really? You're not looking for a reason to fight Eleusis at this point, you're looking for reasons NOT to fight Eleusis. Even if it was just to fight off the threat of Eleusians looking to destroy your home, with their "Divine mandate". On that point, that is no different than letting Mhaldor be until Sartan spreads red fog or a daemonic incursion through half your city before it's a legitimate reason to take the fight West. I mean, who really cares what the other dudes believe in when they're raiding your home? Does it make anyone feel better they get killed by someone serving Nature instead of Twilight? 
    image
    BadeLiyaneFarrahMelaina
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Emoting things, bashing guards, blowing tanks and razing shrines does not a universally compelling, narrative-altering action make, especially when said action threatens to irrevocably change the course of a relationship between two major factions.

    If it were, the Bloodsworn would've pre-empted the aggression on our end and it would've escalated. The fact that it hasn't is pretty plain.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,702Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Except we've tanked Eleusis several times in the last few weeks (failed one or two, too). It's not that we don't want to fight them, generally speaking they're the only city with enough people to warrant a full attack. It's more that there is a precedent of the leaders of the our theocracy saying they're not worth the time/effort.

    Daeirs point is that a divine mandate has to be made because there has to be a mandate from our divine that this is worth the time or effort.  So the best way for that to happen is Artemis and Deucalion calling each other twats and having a dick measuring contest.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Prythe
  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,953Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2017
    Sarathai said:
    Daeir said:
    Probably should escalate that conflict to get it well out of the "maybe" zone if you want it to be a real thing.
    It took Eleusis destroying every Aurora shrine in Reaches and taking over the area for about three days or so to get Targ to respond for more than a couple of days.

    I actually found it kind of funny. We raided, we skirmished, we ritually sacrificed denizens, we insulted in very public forums, and got little to no response in the long term. But laying a finger on those shrines? Game on.



    If it's not obvious, the real reason was just that you did the shrine thing after I became Dawnlord and the other things before I was Dawnlord.

    Some people tried to react to the shrines with the same typical response of "they're not our real enemies" and I just shut it down and said that you are.

    Targossas's hesitance to fight a city that wants to destroy them never made any sense to me though. Not a change of heart, as much as a change of leadership.

    Daeir said:
    Nope, it's purely the fact that there's no concrete reasoning as of yet to declare them as a "hated" enemy over a faction suffering from a cult incursion, especially when so many of the pacifist Eleusians are vaguely sympathetic to mending relations.

    You want full on hate? Get the Divine mandate and do something bad enough to Targossas that it'll never forget, something that will pad away the engendered good-will from the Reckoning cooperation. You have to have mandate for this. No amount of dicking around with shrines, guards, totems or whatever will achieve that end. There's plenty of precedent to make it happen.


    This is just BS. It's been made VERY clear that everything Eleusis does aggressively is the will of Gaia and Artemis. Targossas just chose to repeatedly ignore it because there are pacifists in Eleusis who don't believe Gaia and Artemis should rule them. Eleusis has done pretty much everything they could to escalate. Targossas just needed to respond.

    Some of this discussion seems out-dated though. If people haven't noticed, we raid Eleusis regularly now... and Deuc seemed okay with it.

    AegothAlrena
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 2,377Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    ESCALATE it.
    Shouldn't be hard. All it took for Sartan to mandate Mhaldor invade Cyrene was for one Cyrenian to be a c*nt right to His face.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    Prythe
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna bePosts: 3,370Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Krypton it wasn't even a Cyrenian. It was an Eleusian.
    Huh. Neat.
  • AccipiterAccipiter Posts: 345Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I like that the start of this thread is everyone saying it is stupid to get divine involved before you have even started and now @Deair is all 'if you want to -actually- rp, get some divine involved'
    BlujixapugLiyane
  • AegothAegoth Posts: 2,488Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That's because Daeir is usually clueless about a lot of shit, and thinks that he's right because he's old, and likes to throw shade from his high horse. Nothing new
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,455Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ahmet said:
    @Krypton it wasn't even a Cyrenian. It was an Eleusian.
    Correction: it was several people, not just one person.

  • NazihkNazihk Posts: 977Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Accipiter said:
    I like that the start of this thread is everyone saying it is stupid to get divine involved before you have even started and now @Deair is all 'if you want to -actually- rp, get some divine involved'
    She wanted to get the divine involved from an administrative sort of viewpoint. "Come up with a way for us to do something".

    Daeir, on the other hand, is saying that Targossas is a theocracy and so if you want to change Targossas' IC direction you have to go through their Gods to do it, because the Gods are the one who determine that.
    AsmodronBade
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