A way to make Eleusian RP make sense for -everyone-

1246711

Comments

  • Are you talking about the Divinely enforced cooperation where Yudhi burned down EI and Eleusis went "Welp, guess we have to join you, or else"? cuz lol. But you conveniently skewing the facts to suit your worldview is nothing new, or surprising.

    Your statement about there being nothing "forcing" things to be hostile between loosis and targ can be said for Mhaldor and Targ, or Targ and Hashan. It's painfully obvious, and I feel dumb for having to point it out. All my sighs
  • You know better than to start accusing me of that shit, and I'm solidly with Daeir on this one. Nothing is forced between Mhaldor and Targ - what Mhaldor does can easily be explained to have a negative impact on Creation, just like you guys can explain it in such a way that it has a positive one. The point here is that there is an easy and justifiable explanation. Hashan and Targ's relationship is slightly more complicated due to the complicated views of Twilight, but the explanation remains.

    There is no such obvious and justifiable explanation for conflict between Targossas and Eleusis that does not require a rather large stretch of justification to make it work. Yes, there are justifications for it, but each one eventually results in a question that has no answer other than "cuz we felt like it." If you can come up with a justification that can give a reasonable and decent answer to any question I have about it, then I'll be glad to go back to the Zelda hole I've crawled out of to argue about this.

  • You people know that Aegoth's just a troll, right? :D 
  • @Antidas I feel like you are coming from it from a self-centred place, not meaning that to be insulting. The justification from the Eleusian side can just be the same as the justification for any other city - "Any large gathering of Sentience displaces Nature". There is no bigger stretch needed, though a priority system put in place would practicably put you second from the bottom.

    That you think that Good's actions are beneficial and see Chaos' or Evil's as not doesn't change how Nature feels about them. If Good is potential like Daeir said then you could easily subvert the current sort-of-neutral-to-Good attitude Nature has by saying the potential Good espouses is an unNatural diversion and must be eradicated. 

    You don't have to force the antagonism, you just have to realize that the things your see as essential to the world in your RP aren't even seen as a positive at all to some people. It reminds me of the old Church who would go one about protecting all of Creation and Forestals saying if everyone just went away we wouldn't need protecting. There are valid arguments that any non-Nature organization is actively harming Nature merely by its existence, so in the mind mind of Eleusians Good and Nature shouldn't be co-existing in the long term, though granted the are practicalities to observe.
  • Clearly you all now see why the universe is such a clusterfuck and needs changing. Join Twilight now and make a positive change :)



  • Poppycock. I'm never wrong. You're all delusional. 
  • @Accipiter maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but what I mostly heard is a lot of very good reasons for why Eleusis has every right to be hostile with Targossas; I absolutely agree with this sentiment. As Alrena said above, we fucked up a river and shit, giving Eleusis plenty of reason to hate us. What you didn't say anything about, though, is a decent reason for Targossas to be hostile with Eleusis beyond simply reacting to their attacks, which is what we already do.

  • Daeir said:
    Probably should escalate that conflict to get it well out of the "maybe" zone if you want it to be a real thing.
    It took Eleusis destroying every Aurora shrine in Reaches and taking over the area for about three days or so to get Targ to respond for more than a couple of days.

    I actually found it kind of funny. We raided, we skirmished, we ritually sacrificed denizens, we insulted in very public forums, and got little to no response in the long term. But laying a finger on those shrines? Game on.


    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



  • I think it's less that Targossas has no reason to act aggressively to Eleusis of its own accord, and more that it doesn't WANT to. It's like a very heavy case of stockholm syndrome
  • Daeir said:
    I mean, ESCALATE it. Get Artemis to bring some devastation down on an isle of Targossas or overgrow one entirely with thorns or something. Something with Divine mandate will get notice, and there's no way we can't not respond in kind.
    This time, I think Aegoth is right. All the aggression against Targossas was very much supported by both Artemis and Gaia. A blood ritual was held in your city, shrines were demolished, citizens butchered and rooms destroyed. Eleusis even took the Eastern Reaches for Artemis. But you need the admins to escalate the conflict for you? Really? You're not looking for a reason to fight Eleusis at this point, you're looking for reasons NOT to fight Eleusis. Even if it was just to fight off the threat of Eleusians looking to destroy your home, with their "Divine mandate". On that point, that is no different than letting Mhaldor be until Sartan spreads red fog or a daemonic incursion through half your city before it's a legitimate reason to take the fight West. I mean, who really cares what the other dudes believe in when they're raiding your home? Does it make anyone feel better they get killed by someone serving Nature instead of Twilight? 
    image
  • Except we've tanked Eleusis several times in the last few weeks (failed one or two, too). It's not that we don't want to fight them, generally speaking they're the only city with enough people to warrant a full attack. It's more that there is a precedent of the leaders of the our theocracy saying they're not worth the time/effort.

    Daeirs point is that a divine mandate has to be made because there has to be a mandate from our divine that this is worth the time or effort.  So the best way for that to happen is Artemis and Deucalion calling each other twats and having a dick measuring contest.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • edited March 2017
    Sarathai said:
    Daeir said:
    Probably should escalate that conflict to get it well out of the "maybe" zone if you want it to be a real thing.
    It took Eleusis destroying every Aurora shrine in Reaches and taking over the area for about three days or so to get Targ to respond for more than a couple of days.

    I actually found it kind of funny. We raided, we skirmished, we ritually sacrificed denizens, we insulted in very public forums, and got little to no response in the long term. But laying a finger on those shrines? Game on.



    If it's not obvious, the real reason was just that you did the shrine thing after I became Dawnlord and the other things before I was Dawnlord.

    Some people tried to react to the shrines with the same typical response of "they're not our real enemies" and I just shut it down and said that you are.

    Targossas's hesitance to fight a city that wants to destroy them never made any sense to me though. Not a change of heart, as much as a change of leadership.

    Daeir said:
    Nope, it's purely the fact that there's no concrete reasoning as of yet to declare them as a "hated" enemy over a faction suffering from a cult incursion, especially when so many of the pacifist Eleusians are vaguely sympathetic to mending relations.

    You want full on hate? Get the Divine mandate and do something bad enough to Targossas that it'll never forget, something that will pad away the engendered good-will from the Reckoning cooperation. You have to have mandate for this. No amount of dicking around with shrines, guards, totems or whatever will achieve that end. There's plenty of precedent to make it happen.


    This is just BS. It's been made VERY clear that everything Eleusis does aggressively is the will of Gaia and Artemis. Targossas just chose to repeatedly ignore it because there are pacifists in Eleusis who don't believe Gaia and Artemis should rule them. Eleusis has done pretty much everything they could to escalate. Targossas just needed to respond.

    Some of this discussion seems out-dated though. If people haven't noticed, we raid Eleusis regularly now... and Deuc seemed okay with it.

  • KryptonKrypton shi-Khurena
    Daeir said:
    ESCALATE it.
    Shouldn't be hard. All it took for Sartan to mandate Mhaldor invade Cyrene was for one Cyrenian to be a c*nt right to His face.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna be
    @Krypton it wasn't even a Cyrenian. It was an Eleusian.
    Huh. Neat.
  • I like that the start of this thread is everyone saying it is stupid to get divine involved before you have even started and now @Deair is all 'if you want to -actually- rp, get some divine involved'
  • That's because Daeir is usually clueless about a lot of shit, and thinks that he's right because he's old, and likes to throw shade from his high horse. Nothing new
  • Ahmet said:
    @Krypton it wasn't even a Cyrenian. It was an Eleusian.
    Correction: it was several people, not just one person.

  • Accipiter said:
    I like that the start of this thread is everyone saying it is stupid to get divine involved before you have even started and now @Deair is all 'if you want to -actually- rp, get some divine involved'
    She wanted to get the divine involved from an administrative sort of viewpoint. "Come up with a way for us to do something".

    Daeir, on the other hand, is saying that Targossas is a theocracy and so if you want to change Targossas' IC direction you have to go through their Gods to do it, because the Gods are the one who determine that.
  • I'm trying to decide if people are agreeing with my comments and thus not responding to them, or if they would just prefer to shit on Daeir due to his reputation instead. Not really sure either way, so will assume people are still trying to say I'm wrong by attacking him.

    I'll say again that yes, Eleusis has done everything it could to make Targossas an enemy. And we did respond, we raid you guys plenty and have at least raided once in a blue moon since you started attacking us. However, none of that is ever going to get Eleusis written into our canon as a main enemy, and thus, Eleusis will continue to remain bottom priority from an IC stand point, even if we raid them more often due to their superior numbers, like Farrah stated above.

  • Daeir has shown he is very informed about achaean life. I'd definitely take his opinion on a RP matter highly
  • edited March 2017
    Antidas said:
    I'm trying to decide if people are agreeing with my comments and thus not responding to them, or if they would just prefer to shit on Daeir due to his reputation instead. Not really sure either way, so will assume people are still trying to say I'm wrong by attacking him.

    I'll say again that yes, Eleusis has done everything it could to make Targossas an enemy. And we did respond, we raid you guys plenty and have at least raided once in a blue moon since you started attacking us. However, none of that is ever going to get Eleusis written into our canon as a main enemy, and thus, Eleusis will continue to remain bottom priority from an IC stand point, even if we raid them more often due to their superior numbers, like Farrah stated above.


    I'm not really sure what we're arguing about anymore. I think what people disagree with is this:

    Antidas said:
    For the record, we were essentially reminded that we have real enemies to fight (Mhaldor/Ashtan/Hashan) in terms of theology, and while Nature was being a real pain in our ass, they weren't really our enemy, since their goals don't involve harming creation. Hence why we didn't push the conflict. I don't recall constantly getting hammered though, iirc it was pretty even!

    This is the same reasoning that remains in Targossas today, for the record. Yeah, we're certainly far from friendly with Eleusis, but they are hardly public enemy number one. No matter what you guys do, it'll likely stay that way, unless Nature somehow decides that it needs to harm Creation to achieve its goals...which would make no sense.

    Targossas used to refuse to raid Eleusis because it asserted they weren't enemies at all. You seemed to be saying that's reasonable and is still the case. People are saying you're wrong: they are an enemy and we acknowledge them as such now.

    Nobody is saying they're the #1 enemy, though. Neither is Evil, imo. We just aren't in a "retaliate only, and beg them to be friends" relationship with Eleusis anymore. They're enemies.

    When it comes to "canon," I think we've been trying in general to not define our ideology based on our enemies, so I don't really like the idea of "canonical enemies" I guess. I'd say Good is what it is, anyone who gets in the way of what we want to achieve is an enemy.

    But I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with you on that to the extent that we do have "canonical enemies." I just don't think that really matters, or even influences who is a priority for us. Who is a priority is dictated by practicality and present circumstances. So if Eleusis presented an imminent threat, they could easily be our #1 priority with the idea being we dispatch them to remove the problem so that we can then get back to dealing with Chaos, Evil, and Darkness, which may present consistent threats, but not necessarily the "most imminent one" at any given time.

  • @Antidas I thought we were still talking about Eleusis and since a know a little about that that is what I was talking about. Then it turned to Targossas and since I don't know anything about their RP I just went back to my usual annoying not adding anything to the conversation posts when you made it clear the topic changed.
  • Edit window timed out, but I also want to say it is a huge cop out to say you can't do anything without the Bloodsworn. They are like 2 people and if the Eleusian playerbase decides that Targossas is the biggest danger to Nature then it shouldn't be up to the administration, or the divine of the other faction, to say it is allowable. That is an old school make your own RP viewpoint I understand, but it just rubs me the wrong way to have people saying 'We aren't going to engage with you until we get the go ahead from the admins'. Grow some balls and make the game that you have probably spend thousands of dollars on work for you, not the other way around.
  • edited March 2017
    Tbf, when all the nonsense with Eleusis started, Jhui and friends were a lot more active than they are now, and I can 100% understand why Targossas didn't want to deal with the Eleusian snipesquad on top of Ashtan. Now, it's basically the only good fight I can pick when I'm around, so I'm totally game to fight Eleusis, but when this was starting out, I can really empathize, both IC and OOC, with the 'we might be biting off more than we can chew' mentality that I vaguely remember ruling the day. No shame in that.
  • Man, throw shade at me all you want, but if you fuck with Farrah I will waste all my resources to grief you in ways that will bring to mind the qashar
  • Daeir said:
    Accipiter said:
    I like that the start of this thread is everyone saying it is stupid to get divine involved before you have even started and now @Deair is all 'if you want to -actually- rp, get some divine involved'
    Nazihk hit the nail on the head, really. Can't quasi-permanently alter the direction of a theological citystate without having Divine mandate to do so. Believe me, plenty of people have tried and failed miserably.

    So until this Eleusian conflict gets the terse blessing of Smoke-dad, it'll remain forever stuck in this void of "we raid you, dick your shrines and kill your city denizens but we're not actually enemies" yet. Because guess what? They're kinda not unless the Bloodsworn say so, and they haven't, because the situation hasn't been escalated yet.

    Hence the past several pages and nearly half a dozen posts trying to explain this, which even the leader of my city is apparently incapable of understanding properly. Yikes.

    This whole thing puts how falsely mutable the RP situation is between various cities though, which in the context of referring to the original purpose of this thread, is kind of hilarious given how strongly so many people reacted to the notion that divine interference is not necessary for overarching change.

    In some contexts, it absolutely is. Targossas and Mhaldor are two examples of where it indeed, is essential, and would be quite frankly extremely odd if it wasn't. Theocracies where the.. theocratic element is disregarded in lieu of the direction of a mortal leader? That's sort of not a theocracy, yo. And that's precisely where the situation with Eleusis becomes very odd, because Eleusis is at best, a quasi-theocracy, meaning that as observed, their concerted efforts to change the relationship between them and another city can be brushed off as a "death cult" or "savage incursion" rather than a legitimate approach from one faction to another.

    That all changes the moment Artemis or Gaia says something clear and pointed about it publicly, or does something to Targossas to display their discontent.

    Not really sure what is so hard to understand about that. There isn't an aspect of discussion to it. It is what it is, and if you think otherwise, you're basically just wrong.

    I don't understand how the city I lead operates on a leadership/city direction level? Now you're just being an idiot and insulting me.

    A theocracy doesn't require divine action for everything. It just means the gods are ultimately in charge. The Dawnlord is literally appointed to be the mortal representative of their will. The Dawnlord can definitely make changes to the city. Otherwise, the city would be utter crap if its gods ever went dormant.

    If the gods tell the Dawnlord no, then yeah, it's out. But they don't need to declare war or shit to make it valid.

    I literally called Eleusis an enemy directly in Targossas news, and Deucalion said the typical "your reasoning is sound, I am pleased." So how are you telling me we can't call them an enemy? That makes no sense. Don't "yikes" me.
  • Also, would make the point that the Aarashi actually started taking a proactively aggressive stance against Eleusis/Artemis' order after Rangor interferes in a Crusade and Aurora took exception to it. We were basically told to push their faces in directly by our Divine.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • While steering certain factions towards certain desired paths is a necessity in the game, and welcomed in most scenarios, I think the idea of a 'sandbox' feel to Achaea is something that is often overlooked and more often not explored.

    In the event of a situation that you speak of the hands of Eleusis and Targossas, or any other city, are now tied. We are enemies and to oppose that idea is antithetical to the oaths one takes. It's black and white, no takebacks. By leaving it up to the individual cities about how they undertake the nature of this conflict you have more options. 

    You can have people in Eleusis and Targossas both that rally for peace on both sides, you can have warmongers who begin conflicts with their counterparts in the other city, and you have the ensuing conflicts between the peaceful types and the warmongers. The dynamic can be fluid, and graceful, and fun. Our inability to recognize that and seize on it isn't a testament to the weakness of the conflict, but to our necessity to be spoon-fed content. 

    Let the situation evolve naturally, as it is now, and you can look back on the unfolding story and say 'I helped make that'. Rather than @Deucalion coming out with a flaming pitchfork and shoving it into places that don't shine and forcing your hand. I prefer the first option.
Sign In or Register to comment.