A way to make Eleusian RP make sense for -everyone-

Kiah

I would REALLY love it, if we could find a way to make it possible to create a story that ends with the Divine working together to change the cities (the ones who choose to cooperate) into cities that are similar to Eleusis, in that they work around and with the forest/earth, rather than standing atop and ruining it.

The RP behind this story, would be that in order for that to happen, the citizens of Eleusis must step up and try to convince those cities that they need to and CAN change. Right now, there is war brewing, because Eleusis wants the cities to stop ruining the earth. Well, that's just going to go on and on and on forever and ever, and it (unlike in other cities) is creating a huge divide right down the middle of the village because so many of the citizens support violence, and so many of them don't. It doesn't make sense for there to not be a real solution to the problem that the non-violent people can root for, without betraying their beliefs. It might take a million bajillion years, but knowing that it can and will eventually happen by Divine will, I know my character, for one, would no doubt and without hesitation, be willing to back that movement.

The violent and the peaceful people would then be able to agree that the cities who refuse to cooperate, even with a palpable solution before them, should be destroyed. Then we'd be left with an RP story thing that can go forever and ever that actually makes sense.

I feel this is a great way to get Eleusis back from it's weird stagnancy, and to soothe the discontent that is causing the actual players a lot of frustration, that will otherwise never go away.

I'm sure plenty of you are saying "Well duh, that's been the RP all along" but I'm not talking about only  the RP right now, I'm suggesting and asking for a real solution, something that would have to be done by the men (and women!!!) behind the curtains.

The whole "Eleusis hates cities and wants them destroyed" doesn't work for everyone who lives there right now. Sure, people want the problem that cities create to go away, but just mindlessly killing the people who live there isn't what they're interested in, and right now, because of Gaia, people are being forced to either

1. "well we tried asking them to change and they won't so let's kill em" or

2. "I want to keep trying (to absolutely no end) to get them to change, and in doing so, betray my goddess and my own beliefs knowing that they probably won't." 

This idea brings those two options together in the end. 

Antonius

There is no way for that to happen. Not sure there's any need for anything else to be said.

Kiah

Why don't you suggest something else, then? I've presented a real problem. Just because you don't like my idea, doesn't mean you can't come up with your own! Dunno why you would really take the time to respond like that, if you don't actually care to make it better? Please try to say something helpful, rather than ruining the thread before it even gets started with your negative nancy comments!  

Melodie

I'm not sure there's a resolution to this.

Eleusis is eating itself alive because its core lore now involves conflict, and people hate that but choose to stay anyway. As if somehow staying and opposing the very lore that is apart of the city now somehow is helpful.

The divide is created by the citizens, not the lore. The citizens need to resolve it by either getting over it or leaving.

Not sure if there's much else to be said.

Nazihk

You know the non-violent option will never work.

You know that nothing will ever come of it.

You know that you will end up defaulting to "Well, since they won't do this the easy way, we're gonna have to do it the hard way."

So with all that in mind, why don't you just make up a non-violent movement for Eleusis? Then you can all back it and literally everybody else in the world will pretend that it doesn't exist. That's exactly what would happen if you got your wish here anyways, only it's way easier to do and it doesn't requires you guys getting outside help. 

Also, divided causes like that never ever work, it's why Hashan is basically the poster child for "failure to thrive" on the global stage.

Cooper

Uh, no to this. What in the hell...

Also, you haven't presented a real problem. There is not a problem with cities taking away from nature.

Minifie

Eleusis being so divided is an eleusis problem, and one for eleusis to solve. They have a choice as a council to exercise whether the peaceful group are forced to fight or not, and at the moment it's two factions trying to overthrow the other. 

Something's got to give, when I left it was pretty divided, but who knows now.

Aegoth

WTF is this thread? "We need Eleusis to not be fucked up, so let's change every other org to get along with Eleusis instead!" Get the fuck out, and purge your cuddlefucks already.

Accipiter

I mean really, Nature is a big place and I am sure there is some RP out there that doesn't focus on the cities. Why not go out and find it?

Kiah

You guys are so rude, lol. 

Liyane

I do think there is a problem here and it's that Forestals only have two options:

1) Join Eleusis which does have a clear, combat-oriented, agressive agenda towards every faction except Cyrene which it merely holds in contempt
2) be rogue

I'd think the best solution would be a return of a non-city associated house for Forestals who aren't looking for endless conflict with every other city.

[Edit] ugh daylight saving brain making it hard to type...

Tahquil

Would t this further rob Eleusis of identity as it would 'complete' one of their factional goals and leave them with listless and asking, 'what now?'

Accipiter

Liyane said:

I do think there is a problem here and it's that Forestals only have two options:

1) Join Eleusis which does have a clear, combat-oriented, agressive agenda towards every faction except Cyrene which it merely holds in contempt
2) be rogue

I'd think the best solution would be a return of a non-city associated house for Forestals who aren't looking for endless conflict with every other city.

[Edit] ugh daylight saving brain making it hard to type...

Well that is the case for every city isn't it? If you want to be Evil you have to be aggressive, if you want to be Chaotic you have to be aggressive, if you want to be Good you have to be aggressive.

Since the Renaissance the RP for everywhere is hyper aggressive, but that shouldn't stop you from going out and making your own RP that is more focused on debate and understanding if you want that, or just ignore it all if you want, no one will really say anything about it unless you make a target out of yourself.

The lore is there to generate conflict for those who want it, if you don't you can just go your own way and do your own thing. There doesn't need to be divine assistance to make people more passive, people do that already.

Hell, in this particular case Kiah could just start a clan that preaches peaceful dismantling of the cities. If you actually go out and engage people it would probably get enough notice to start a conversation at least, if not a little divine assistance or something if it caught on.

But when it comes down to it, combat sells arties and discussion doesn't so if you want the latter be prepared to do the work yourself maybe?

Liyane

Accipiter said:

Since the Renaissance the RP for everywhere is hyper aggressive, but that shouldn't stop you from going out and making your own RP that is more focused on debate and understanding if you want that, or just ignore it all if you want, no one will really say anything about it unless you make a target out of yourself.

I guess that's what I'm suggesting just not in so many words.

I never played in the prerenassaince houses but I was in the Druid Guild back in the day and I don't remember any combat that wasn't around stopping exterminations (so more defensive in nature). I'm not sure if there's been any new houses since the Renaissance or if there's a pathway for it, but I do think starting with a clan of like minded Forestals could be a good start towards a "peaceful" Forestals group.

Caelan

Accipiter said:shouldn't stop you from going out and making your own RP...

Hell, in this particular case Kiah could just start a clan that preaches peaceful dismantling of the cities. If you actually go out and engage people it would probably get enough notice to start a conversation at least, if not a little divine assistance or something if it caught 

This is the way to accomplish your goal @Kiah. 

And then you dhould remember, "Everyone is a pacifist, until they get punched in the face"

Sarathai

As others have said, there's not really any way for this to work. If I may note some particulars of why:

Kiah said:

The RP behind this story, would be that in order for that to happen, the citizens of Eleusis must step up and try to convince those cities that they need to and CAN change.

They won't. Nazihk is dead on target. There is absolutely no reason for any city to want to, as it would in four cases out of five be directly against the faction:

Ashtan: Chaos court, directly hostile to Eleusis, Chaos is an enemy of Nature.
Hashan: Is busy blowing up the Ithmias FOR SCIENCE. Also Darkness. Enemy of Nature.
Targossas: Zaphar river. Will require the Bloodsworn to agree. They won't.
Mhaldor: If I need to explain this one to you, you're in the wrong faction.

And in the case of Cyrene:

Cyrene: This sounds like conflict and change. Go away.

Ergo, there's no need nor point for an event, since I've just given you what their answers will be. One of Rangor's Scion house tasks actually involved him going to Cyrene and preaching, giving them the option of literally what you're describing.

Right now, there is war brewing, because Eleusis wants the cities to stop ruining the earth. Well, that's just going to go on and on and on forever and ever, and it (unlike in other cities) is creating a huge divide right down the middle of the village because so many of the citizens support violence, and so many of them don't.

Put simply here, Achaea is a PvP game at its core, and that is what the majority of player skills are focused towards. Yes, you can bash, you can fish, you can harvest, you can sit at your designated AFK-on-guards-spot and chat on OOC clans all day. But it is still a PvP game. Player versus player. Trying to make it into something it is not will only lead to tears. And in this sense, a faction's combatants and ability to deploy that force is one of the keys to maintaining a presence on the world stage as a credible faction. An example of this is Hashan. For years it endured the "What's a Hashan?" moniker, both from lack of real unifying ideology (that most of the citizenry knew about) and from lack of skilled fighters who could enforce/deploy that ideology.

Once they got them, and once said people also did a massive amount of heavy lifting during the Black Wave? And in particular had Twilight return, as well as their Renaissance reimagining? The players got on board with it, they had what they stood for, and they could actually make an impact that didn't result in the rest of Achaea laughing at them behind their backs. (Granted, they've been on a bit of a downturn again recently, but I think the point still holds. This is also, in fairness, the perspective of an outsider looking in, so I could be missing a lot of things that were going on in Hashan at the time.)

Is it theoretically possible for avenues involving non-violent deployment of factional ideologies? Absolutely, and there are examples of them around. You could start debates, conversion attempts, various pushes to external identification. The Asterian Restoration is an example of one forum in which that can take place. One of Eleusis' houses touches strongly on it, too. Although I note that a lot of people also don't bother, which I've always found a shame. Perhaps more people should seek it out. (EDIT: since people posted while I was posting, the clan option is another way of doing this, absolutely.)

But you will never get anything major that is not, at its core, conflict. Something to drive the factional cities (Ashtan, Eleusis, Hashan, Targossas, Mhaldor) against each other, and it won't be a conflict that is permanently resolved. That is the point of Achaea, and that is what the admin encourage, as well as arrange for with things like Accords, Seven Truths, Viridian Charter, whatever Targ has right now, and so on and so forth. There is only one city that decided it was not interested in any conflict. All the rest should be getting on board.

The whole "Eleusis hates cities and wants them destroyed" doesn't work for everyone who lives there right now.

This calls back to the "get on board" thing and what Melodie said: people who hate the idea of conflict (note that I'm not necessarily talking about killing here, but "player versus player"), yet also refuse to leave for a faction/group that doesn't want to engage in it (for which there is either Cyrene or being a rogue), because like it or not, Eleusis is a factional cityvillage. It seems to be a route to just making yourself miserable.

I mean, telling somebody to either get with the program or leave is impolite, but in softening the blow, it's linked with the Most Important Thing: we play Achaea for fun. If you are not having fun in your faction any more because you find that you don't agree with its Garden-provided ideology? Change yourself. Leave that faction, find somewhere else that you enjoy, and be there instead. Sick of a raid defense now stretching into the fourth or fifth hour? Log out. It's a game. For example, reaching back into the distant past, I skipped out on defending the Sylvan House icon (or maybe it was the Sentinels?) several years ago now because I had to go make dinner. Why? I was hungry, and I'm not going to skip mealtime just for a game.

I've said this to plenty of people. Morthif most recently, I think, when he quit Eleusis last year to go have fun in Ashtan instead. ICly he's dirty traitorous Chaos scum and a permanent enemy to Eleusis. OOCly I'm perfectly fine with it.

Minifie said:

They have a choice as a council to exercise whether the peaceful group are forced to fight or not...

You're not required to fight unless you're in the army. Which is, you know, what an army is for.

Ellodin

Most of the answer is within the previous posts or posts within the game itself, but this is justifying an IC goal with OOC reasoning.

Simplifying things a bit, an IC goal is to reclaim the cities, as strongly implied within our guiding set of ideals. From there, we figure out processes that seem viable from an IC standpoint. We do this in spite of knowing that on an OOC level, we don't really expect our goals to reach a simple conclusion in our favour, same as followers of Babel (hopefully) don't really expect the game to wipe out and become nothingness through their IC actions. Without cooperation from all sides involved (along with their Patrons and perhaps even greater forces, depending on the ramifications!), very little will mechanically change.

That's the basic gist of RPing and playing Achaea; if there's a mutually-agreed-upon result that doesn't tread on in-game logic, it can likely be facilitated. There are examples of results that came from initiatives that began "behind the curtain," like the Atavians of Genji finding a new religion, and that's reflected in small changes to their village. Yet that would not have occurred through normal mechanical expectation, that came through consistent roleplay and effort allowing groups to meaningfully take part in that opportunity.

Solutions have been presented IC, and it's not much of a secret that some people refuse to take part for petty reasons, like the involvement of certain individuals. Regardless of the reasons that people give for refusing to participate, continuing to argue against the ideals that Eleusis is now based on makes little sense. Is it a matter of blurred lines between IC and OOC, or do that many characters have a trait of being unwilling to change with the world?

From what I remember with US Criminal Justice, the ruling on the case Trop v. Dulles (which concluded, perhaps ironically given recent Eleusian situations, that denationalization is an unconstitutional punishment) produced the phrase "evolving standards of decency." In context, this meant that interpretation of the law changed over time as societal norms changed. The same thing applies here; Achaean expectations of idealism and roleplay have evolved far beyond the days when people said, shouted, and posted extremely OOC things, past a time when people would argue that shrubs could lead with reasonable efficacy and those people should not be challenged.

In spite of this, if people wish to continue to play in that manner, they can! They simply should not expect to be taken seriously when they do it within maturing societies, outside of subcultures where IC actions are based on OOC sensibilities.

Alrena

I'm not the Speaker anymore, or Eleusian for that matter, so I don't need to be politically correct anymore.

The problem isn't that there is no place in Eleusis for "peaceful" forestals. The problem is that these peaceful forestals think there is no place for them in Eleusis. There is -one- Tenet in the Viridian Charter that talks about opposing cities, without saying violence is the only option (because it is not, and Gaia made that very clear, not that it helped). 

Secondly, you have an entire House that SHOULD be about looking within Nature. Researching, patrolling, defending, nurturing, what have you. The Heartwood Kin is all about that. Even within the Scions you have every option to pursue their goals peacefully. And before you give me the nonsensical response of "how likely are they to listen when we attack them", well let me just answer with: Mhaldor does it, and if (arguably) the most hostile faction can still manage peaceful options, then you really have no excuse as an Eleusian.

This faction of peaceful forestals wants things handed to them on a silver platter. Meeting in the middle is never acceptable for them, it's their way or it's wrong. I spent more energy fighting political battles than I did fighting the cities. Spend half that energy in thinking of peaceful ways to help your cause and enacting them, and Eleusis would be an amazing faction in no time. But it's easier to complain and fight the people on your own side cause they won't kill you (yet).


Ever since I became Speaker I made damn sure there was room for peaceful forestals in Eleusis. But I also ensured there was room for those who wanted to take the fight to the cities. Before that, this wasn't an option. You want a place in Eleusis? Accept that the "violent" forestals have a place in Eleusis too and learn to get along already. If you can't do that then you really should do yourself a favour and leave. God, I wish I had said that IC when I was Speaker. And introduced executions.

Aegoth

Alrena said:

I'm not the Speaker anymore, or Eleusian for that matter

yea, you aren't. So change that cutesy green dragon shit avatar. i suggest this:

Minifie

Aegoth said:

Alrena said:

I'm not the Speaker anymore, or Eleusian for that matter

yea, you aren't. So change that cutesy green dragon shit avatar. i suggest this:

go hard or go home, Aegoth!

Aegoth

Minifie said:

Aegoth said:

Alrena said:

I'm not the Speaker anymore, or Eleusian for that matter

yea, you aren't. So change that cutesy green dragon shit avatar. i suggest this:

go hard or go home, Aegoth!

You arent gonna win this war

Minifie

Aegoth said:

Minifie said:

Aegoth said:

Alrena said:

I'm not the Speaker anymore, or Eleusian for that matter

yea, you aren't. So change that cutesy green dragon shit avatar. i suggest this:

go hard or go home, Aegoth!

You arent gonna win this war

Aegoth

Minifie said:

Aegoth said:

Minifie said:

Aegoth said:

Alrena said:

I'm not the Speaker anymore, or Eleusian for that matter

yea, you aren't. So change that cutesy green dragon shit avatar. i suggest this:

go hard or go home, Aegoth!

You arent gonna win this war

Klendathu

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/webdr03/2013/7/16/6/enhanced-buzz-2719-1373969153-13.jpg

Minifie

      

Alrena

Minifie said:

      

That was one of the first video games I ever played when I was young. Rip Croc, so underrated, but just as good as Spyro the Dragon. You will forever live on in my heart.

edit: there is also nothing wrong with my chibi dragon! I will never change it!

Aegoth

            

Minifie

Alrena said:

Minifie said:

      

That was one of the first video games I ever played when I was young. Rip Croc, so underrated, but just as good as Spyro the Dragon. You will forever live on in my heart.

I fell in love with his little noises... WAZOO!

Minifie

Aegoth said:

            

Minifie

@Alrena I've got a legit totally legal 100% 'authentic' copy on the PC that I just blitzed through of both games... I forgot how damn catchy the music was (probably the best PS1 platformer soundtrack in croc 2 IMO).

Caelan

Alrena said:

That was one of the first video games I ever played when I was young. Rip Croc, so underrated, but just as good as Spyro the Dragon. You will forever live on in my heart.

edit: there is also nothing wrong with my chibi dragon! I will never change it!

So I guess I show my age when I say I remember playing PONG?  And Atari (goddamn I was great at Missile Command and Centipede and Space Invaders)