Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 6.2K All Categories
- 3.1K Everything Achaea
- 1.5K North of Thera
- 26 Archives of the Terraformer
- 257 The Matsuhama Arena
- 885 The Golden Dais of Creation
- 299 The Scarlattan Theatre
- 149 The Blank Canvas
- 2K Getting Help
- 412 General Questions
- 258 Quick Class Questions
- 1.3K Tech Support
- 313 Client Help
- 486 Curing Systems and Scripts
- 841 Off-Topic
- 255 The Wander Inn
- 586 The Universal Membrane
- 298 Class Discussions
- 298 Individual Class Sections
- 20 Alchemist
- 9 Apostate
- 30 Blademaster
- 9 Depthswalker
- 14 Druid
- 4 Infernal
- 20 Jester
- 19 Magi
- 34 Monk
- 11 Occultist
- 8 Paladin
- 7 Priest
- 29 Runewarden
- 18 Sentinel
- 26 Serpent
- 20 Shaman
- 9 Sylvan
Comments
There is no non-charter vs yes-charter option. The charter is there and it'll stay. You need to learn how to live with it and how to express to others what you need within it.
The Scions have no ties to the charter more than the Heartwood do. What you're doing is the same thing the 'pacifist' faction has been doing for years: create and reinforce a line that divides the people in Eleusis. The charter applies to both heartwood and scions, it's just that most of the people that rebel against it are in the heartwood. Move on or move to Cyrene.
To use your example: the charter is the constitution. There's no anti-constitutional party, for a good reason, because that'd be absurd. Those who opposed it would rightly be labelled as wanting an entirely different government rather than just being a different party within it.
The players of the Scion chose to take charter with an aggressive stance. The players of the Heartwood decided to refuse the charter and the house was turned into 'a retirement home'. All House development from then was player-driven, So it is entirely on the players in the heartwood for fucking up the house that badly.
Honestly, if you start crying for the admin to intervene and fix the problem I can almost guarantee you they aren't going to push the charter to be Scion only. You're just going really disappointed when they make Eleusis, home to the defenders and protectors of Nature, bow down to Gaia and Artemis and both goddesses go in ad rewrite your house from scratch because you fucked it up so badly.
It appears I missed the internet sarcasm sweet spot, so I should clarify that my last post wasn't serious. If nothing else, the leadership involved wouldn't want to see forestal classes move back to Cyrene, I'm almost sure.
Part of my point, though, was that I think Eleusis is always going to have trouble with players who are more interested in being a forestal class then actually buying into what Eleusis wants to be on the world stage. Forestal classes are a sixth's of the game's overall classes, and unlike, say, infernal/apostate, which have always had niche appeal, forestal classes have always been very, very popular.
Nearly every other class in the game has enough freedom that a player can choose where they want to play based on the government style/whatever else that suits them. With forestal classes, however, that's hot the case, and so Eleusis gets a constant trickle of players who might fit better in a less-aligned Cyrene or Hashan, but put class choice first and go for Eleusis, and then want it to fit their interests and playstyle. I'm sure that's a surmountable problem, but I have to wonder how things would be if the people who thought like @Linton describes could choose to follow their personal interpretations of nature in other places, while joining Eleusis would only be necessary if you buy into Eleusian ideals.
Here's the blunt truth. If your org has a patron, that patron probably is calling the shots as regards factional identity. You CAN resist this, if you want. You can do whatever you want. But in doing so, you are playing against the direction the game-runners want the faction to go in, and that means that you're not going to enjoy the same support people who're helping steer in that direction will, because, well... you're being a nuisance, in short.
You may be right when it comes to Cyrene's though. I know that most of the city would love it, but there's also the mindset of "anything that might be perceived as non-neutral shouldn't happen" that seems particularly prevalent among the ruling clique. The problem, I'd imagine, would be less with a hypothetical trade of alchie for forestal classes, and more with whatever roleplay would be necessary to get to that point.
The Heartwood Kin (Not under that name at the time) was never supposed to be a compromise. It was intended to be the other side of the same coin, together with the Scions. One would focus externally, learning, spreading influence, eliminating threats. The other would focus within, tending, nurturing, protecting. Combatants and non-coms could be in either House. That it was turned into a retirement home is 100% the doing of the Heartwood Kin founders. The admins didn't force them to stick with the original idea, nor did the Scions or Eleusis, so I don't see how you can pin that on anyone else.
You're also wrong about the Scions having to be extremist anti-civilisation. They don't have to be any more than Heartwood Kin. A Scion is just as valid if they go out and try to educate cities on leaving a bit less harmfully to Nature. Or if they focus on cleansing unnatural creatures, like undead. I swear I told this to several people.
So why your idea wouldn't work, is that it's based on several assumptions that are false. Starting with the basic meaning of what the Viridian Charter means, as Rangor said in a post above here.
For the assertion that the 'pacifists' just want nothing to happen in game and will oppose anyone trying to do anything, I do not believe their motivation to be so simply explained. As to what the causes might be that make them appear this way, I leave it to each of us to come up with their own conclusion if any.
To the suggestion that the divide in Eleusis is caused by a few people while the majority are actually OK with the system and the Viridian Charter, my mind goes to this: I believe that alot of these people who appear OK with the system are actually just in some kind of limbo mode - too tired by the conflict to actually care anymore. They will just hunt, sail, fish, do their own thing. And I do not blame them. Politics is very draining, even just reading about it. There is a reason why it is compared to the plague. Does this then mean they are really OK? I personally see it as the environment stunting their potential to grow their characters.
To the assertion that the few 'troublemaking' leaders do not come up to the open to talk about their concerns and views. I can understand why that is so. I really wish they would find the will to come out in the open. Even the forums are lacking their voice. My posting here is in a way trying to encourage that. It not an attempt to get the admin to do something as suggested by someone.
More on the Charter. If the Charter matches the ideals of one house almost perfectly, while at the same time has no significant overlap with that of the other, the two houses are not in equal standing in their parent entity, ie Eleusis. Such a model is one of elitism in my eyes.
@Keorin
.....
You can tell them Nature is not just what they see around them but that it comes with scripture and truths attached. They will likely say 'Ok' then go back to their own little spot of Nature, their groves. What then can you do? If it is otherwise, then there will be no conflict in Eleusis right now. I am not trying to side with one side or the other(though I have my own bias and it sometimes come out). The fact remains that the split in Eleusis exists and I try to work with that. I do not believe saying 'People should be like this or like that' or 'They should just leave' to be relevant, since like in the forums, we are not going to change alot of minds. Also because alot of people can be involved here though the rough estimate varying alot - Some people say the majority of Eleusis just wants to be old Eleusis. Some put it as half-half. And then we have some people saying it's only a few people on one side of the split. Even if we are conservative, it is still potentially alot of people. I do not believe it is constructive to just brush them off and say 'go to Cyrene'.
Anyway it's good to have this discussion. My apologies if my bias came out strongly and offended. I have enough of this discussion here. If anyone wishes to talk more with me about this topic, do PM me. Signing out from this thread.
Edit: Just want to add: While this split in Eleusis has been going on for a long time and Eleusis would not explode because of it. I personally feel alot of potential growth/RP for the faction is hindered and stopped by it. Really wish the players involved would take concrete steps to work on this problem.
Also, I am pretty shocked that a significant portion of the player base is alienating one of their best resources for cool, canon stuff to be added to the game world. There is a balance to be struck even if you don't want to capitulate to every whim of the gods.
Regardless of of all the flowery wording otherwise, @Linton, your group is still pushing out leadership and divine at an alarming rate. When that's the case, you need to start examining yourself rather than pushing the blame onto game design.
For example, people who think pineapple goes on pizza should not expect to be treated on the same level as people who know otherwise, because those pineapple-people are w r o n g.
Also, the problem of "Hey, let's shove aside the obvious godmins of a faction because only we can determine what the faction is about," isn't a wholly Eleusian problem.
We can blame the people who do not support Gaia or Her vision, but it won't solve anything. The only practical thing to do would be to change the system that caused this divide since said system has failed to find equilibrium in the 2 years it was given. Or do we wait another 2 years?
It was suggested that only a few people are the 'trouble-makers'. Yet from this thread alone, especially near page 1, the description offered was 'split down the middle' or similar, from at least a few people. Funnily enough, people in Targossas perceive the split(albeit earlier on) to be disportionate too but in the other direction. You read in their news, terms like 'Rangor's bloodlust' or 'Rangor personal war' which implies it is only a really small minority of people who are for this new Eleusis directive. We really covered the whole spectrum here when it comes to estimates. Maybe Eleusis can hold a referendum to find out how things really stand ... if they dare.
Regardless, I do not think it practical to just wait for the 'few trouble-makers' to join their brethren who have already left the game. (Yes, I am sure that even they have lost alot of people to frustration.) Also, I believe that their ranks will refill itself as many new players will find it hard to accept with their hearts that Nature =/= nature, or that it comes with a Divine verdict.
Now to talk more about problem solving which is the goal:
In my view, to solve this division, both sides must first feel like they can express their ideals out in the open. Yes, the fact that Heartwood had reneged on 'their side of the coin' because they cannot accept Gaia is true. -We should work with that- instead of repeatedly saying they -should- accept Gaia with all their hearts. After 2 years plus, this 'should' approach has not worked or this thread would not have existed.
So what is a practical step? By not forcing Gaia on them. How? By removing the Viridian Charter completely or moving it to the Scions. (Either way makes no difference. This is not incidental)
Such a move would put both side at equal footing, supporters and non-supporters of Gaia. Both sides will then have the chance to -learn- from scratch on how to work together. Doing nothing and hoping that people will change their minds and accept Gaia has not worked so far.
Perhaps there are people who will rather let the division continue, be it for another 2 years or forevermore, than to see the failed system taken down or changed. I cannot agree with such people if they exist. So many people are affected over this entire duration spanning years.
This confuses me a little. The Scions promotion material I got from the public news is this:
"We are the Scions of the Ithmia, tasked with the expansion of Nature's borders;
reclaimers of that which is lost. Like our patrons, Lady Artemis and Lady Gaia,
the Scions are the hearalds of destruction, change, and new growth to any place
stolen from Nature."
... and similar stuff. I also recall alot of rhetoric about overturning all stones and also recall the core of this new 'Nature' to be both anti-civilization and expansionist.
Perception becomes reality. I find it hard to believe most people won't blink at a Scion being contented to tell them to, in your words, 'live a bit less harmful to Nature', and shake hands and say goodbye. Sorry. I would see them more as the reclaimers referenced in the quote I provided. Maybe it is just me? Forgive me if this perception is in the minority.
The Charter is written in abit of a stylistic language. Someone recently on this thread commented that it can be interpretated in different ways. That however is not the point. The point is, the Charter, authored by Gaia(not singling the volunteer out. He/she did it on the behalf of players I know) to act as the charter for Eleusis is rejected by people amounting to by estimate from the comments on this thread, half of Eleusis. This is the point. Removing the Charter, regardless of its contents, would be to remove the source of contention or -at the very least- provide the first step or first chance towards reunification, no? Maybe then a new Charter agreed by both sides can be set up?
Do PM me if you want to talk further. We are not shooting over each others' heads I hope.
Nature is nature, is Gaia, is Artemis, is Scions, is Heartwood. This is Eleusis, all in one. Stop driving away your godmin.
The entire game would be better off if they'd just let them take their forestal classes to Cyrene so that they'd stop poisoning Eleusis as a faction.
That faction of Eleusis will have to change or be ousted/subjugated, or Eleusis will keep bleeding players (mostly combatants) until they're completely helpless.
You can be against her being a theocratic figure (I guess), you can be more or less religiously devoted. You can't literally not support her.
To quote a different divine, "No".
Sometimes, we have to give up the things we feel should exist for the betterment of a faction and the game as a whole. When Aurora and Deucalion deleted the Lumeni ICly right in front of us, it was hard as fuck to take and deal with because it was something I had literally spent 8-9 years within - that had existed for over ten years! - and had poured a large amount of work, effort, and roleplay into. And believe you me, there were plenty of people who balked at it suddenly being thrown out the window to a) Give Targ a stronger factional identity, and b) To marginalize a lot of what the clan had been, to turn it into the Diaspora instead. And that doesn't even dip into all the crap that happened with my character afterwards.
It's hard to let go of things you love and believe should exist, I get it. I get it so much. But sometimes you have to move on for not just the sake of the game, but for the sake of your character (and yourself as the player).
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
That doesn't mean you can't politically oppose someone like Rangor, try to change Eleusis's policies and things like that. It does mean you can't oppose things established by Gaia, though.
Around the time Gaia just came back, as a senior house member, I suggested to Sylvan leadership that it was probably time to make the shift in patrons back to Gaia. Except, lo and behold, the HL at the time had already been privately approached and summarily rejected without openly consulting the rest of the House. "We're doing fine with Valnurana", was what I was told when I circumspectly called them out on it.
Mind you, sweet as Val is, we hadn't seen Val visibly in months. She probably did some things in the background. They just didn't want a visible administrative presence that could presumably upheave their comfy little uber clan. The leadership at the time was frankly trash, making extremely questionable decisions not just over the patronage but also things like permitting the induction of players from other cities, not just players but high ranking, politically influential individuals who had no business being in a different faction.
I think the only sane people left were Tekk and me, and Tekk gave up and stopped logging in for a long time. I decided I wasn't going to surround myself with stupid anymore and went rogue. Those people who were wallowing in their own self-indulgence either eventually moved to Cyrene circa Ren (and later back to Eleusis), and then back into the Heartwood Kin where attitudes hadn't really changed beyond cosmetic rebranding.
I joined Eleusis right after the renaissance was done, so I consider myself lucky that I was able to learn what the two new Houses are supposed to represent. The original purpose has gradually changed down the line, of course.. I can continue to speak about the factional ideology for Eleusis (or even Gaia's), but that's better left for IC conversations which I'm always eager for.
I do not believe we can afford to so readily write off any player or group of players, and ask them to leave or go to Cyrene. With our population at what I believe to be an all time low, with the downward trend of population prevailing over years, we really cannot afford to lose people or encourage them to relegate themselves from the main stage to the side stage that is Cyrene.
The relationship between 2 groups of people or players with different play style always has the -potential- to be a positive one if the conditions are right. Looking back at the history of Achaea, we can see countless examples of this. Granted we also have times like Shallam just before it went bust. That however does not discount those times when Shallam was successful and truly shining with its -diversity- of players. It only says the conditions were not well managed at the time. There's nothing inherently wrong with that kind of diversity that prevailed in old Achaea, or to say that they cannot work together.
(Nothing against Cyrene. It serves its citizens well. In addition, I believe people go there from other places as their last stop before departing Achaea, a last effort to enjoy the game. That is very useful.)
You can't possibly say only the Scions have to stand together with forestals, can you?
Gaia IS the Earthmother. She can change anything in Nature as She sees fit, if She chooses. The Heartwood doesn't have that power. Period.
So statements like this right here are extremely wrong, because you're ignoring all the RP that dictates you should follow her, in an effort to make your own RP. That is the definition of special snowflake. How can you reasonably make your character question the literal God of Nature rising out of the ground with vines all about Her, with the ability to shape Nature? "Nah She doesn't know what She's talking about" - get real.
And, no, we do not need to cater to those type of people. If you want to play a forestal, then you have to support Gaia and Artemis, period. What Eleusis needs is leadership that is willing to make this stance and oust people that defy it. If you cannot support them, then you should quit Eleusis and go to something else. 100%
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.