A way to make Eleusian RP make sense for -everyone-

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  • AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WA
    edited March 2017
    But it has already done so; what Farrah and Co are doing now is hugely different from what Targ was doing with the string of absent DLs, and that too was hugely different from the earliest days when Team Blue still seemed like it had never really been broken up. You may not agree with how the events have unfolded, but you can't say that it hasn't evolved naturally. 

    Players from all factions have had the chance to impact how that conflict played out, from people trying to intensify conflict to people trying to influence pacifists in Eleusis to scale that conflict back. People from both factions got the choice to take the angle that made most sense for them and their character and actually have a tangible impact. And that's really fucking cool!


    Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?"
  • It seems to me that there are two totally different things being argued here that everyone is treating as one thing, and thus causing some significant confusion and hostility.

    One of these is being hostile with Eleusis in so far as they are hostile with us. Retaliation, aggression, etc against a faction that has been hostile with us in the past, and insults our gods and drops our shrines and performs ritualistic sacrifice of our denizens in our city etc etc. I don't think anyone here is arguing that we shouldn't raid the f*** out of Eleusis and enjoy the conflict between two of the largest (the two largest? Cyrene doesn't count) factions in the game right now.

    The other side is arguing that despite these aggressions and hostility and whatever else happens between Eleusis and Targossas, Eleusis will likely not be written into our canon or lore or backstory or whatever-else-you-want-to-call-it as a threat to Creation and thus will, in the long run and ICly, not be as important an enemy as Evil/Chaos/Darkness, each of whom are quite literally written into our lore as the three greatest threats to Creation.

    Y'all should stop being so goddamn snarky with each other. WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???





    *Goes back to Legend of Zelda hole again*

  • edited March 2017
    Because driving conflict that requires all parties divine to be active is annoying. IMO player driven world, let the players drive with divine to guide.
  • Daeir said:
    I'm starting to wonder if I have irreconcilable differences in taste for what I want from the game world and what others want from it.

    I would've thought people would be all over Divine players validating existing conflict and encouraging it over.. whatever it is that we currently have. Can't remember the last time two Divine openly clashed over anything. Are people seriously content with the same dry skirmish-raid-shrine conflict cycle over and over again? Do you never wish for things to be a little more?

    I still attest that the Nature-vs-Good conflict will never be anything more than a trifle, ephemeral thing unless it is canonized somehow. Not really sure what part of that is difficult for people to fathom. Antidas seems to get it, yet nearly an hour in a clan discussing it live with other people results in people continuing to miss the point. I'm apparently shit at articulating myself.
    Now I really wish I'd logged it but...

    Rory : fuck their shit up.

    What more do you want?!
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • As a relatively recent convert to Targossas, I think it is pretty apparent that Nature is a second-string enemy at best.

    Joining this city, basically everything I had to fucking read was about how Darkness and Evil and Chaos are bad and why we oppose them and all that jazz. All the sermons were about them. All the rituals were about them. Deucalion's history is specifically opposed to Chaos. They are pretty clearly the main enemies of Targossas by any reasonable standard.

    On the other hand, I don't remember reading a goddamn word about Nature or Eleusis. I don't remember it showing prominently anywhere in the stuff I had to learn about. As far as I've managed to understand it, Targossas doesn't like Eleusis because they're a bunch of dicks who keep attacking us. Sure, they might be one of our main enemies right now, but that's because of circumstance. They're pretty clearly not considered to be on the level of the Dark/Evil/Chaos triad. 
  • No, maybe, yes.
    image
  • Nazihk said:
    As a relatively recent convert to Targossas, I think it is pretty apparent that Nature is a second-string enemy at best.

    Joining this city, basically everything I had to fucking read was about how Darkness and Evil and Chaos are bad and why we oppose them and all that jazz. All the sermons were about them. All the rituals were about them. Deucalion's history is specifically opposed to Chaos. They are pretty clearly the main enemies of Targossas by any reasonable standard.

    On the other hand, I don't remember reading a goddamn word about Nature or Eleusis. I don't remember it showing prominently anywhere in the stuff I had to learn about. As far as I've managed to understand it, Targossas doesn't like Eleusis because they're a bunch of dicks who keep attacking us. Sure, they might be one of our main enemies right now, but that's because of circumstance. They're pretty clearly not considered to be on the level of the Dark/Evil/Chaos triad. 
    Shallam, Cyrene, and Eleusis were fused into an alliance for, like, half the lifetime of the game. That means that Evil and Chaos got more development as their enemies, Nature didn't get as much time to stand alone and develop itself as an ideology in relation to anything except extermination, and people who can remember those times are probably apprehensive about all that happening again.
    image
  • I predict this thread is coming to its untimely demise sometime soon.
  • edited March 2017
    Nazihk said:
    As a relatively recent convert to Targossas, I think it is pretty apparent that Nature is a second-string enemy at best.

    Joining this city, basically everything I had to fucking read was about how Darkness and Evil and Chaos are bad and why we oppose them and all that jazz. All the sermons were about them. All the rituals were about them. Deucalion's history is specifically opposed to Chaos. They are pretty clearly the main enemies of Targossas by any reasonable standard.

    On the other hand, I don't remember reading a goddamn word about Nature or Eleusis. I don't remember it showing prominently anywhere in the stuff I had to learn about. As far as I've managed to understand it, Targossas doesn't like Eleusis because they're a bunch of dicks who keep attacking us. Sure, they might be one of our main enemies right now, but that's because of circumstance. They're pretty clearly not considered to be on the level of the Dark/Evil/Chaos triad. 
    I'd be interested in taking a look at these readings, merely because from the last sermon I heard from Targ their definition of why to oppose Darkness was basically "Twilight is dangerous and did some crap in the past, so we dont like him". Im really hoping the readings mentioned are more developed than that.
  • Asmodron said:
    Nazihk said:
    As a relatively recent convert to Targossas, I think it is pretty apparent that Nature is a second-string enemy at best.

    Joining this city, basically everything I had to fucking read was about how Darkness and Evil and Chaos are bad and why we oppose them and all that jazz. All the sermons were about them. All the rituals were about them. Deucalion's history is specifically opposed to Chaos. They are pretty clearly the main enemies of Targossas by any reasonable standard.

    On the other hand, I don't remember reading a goddamn word about Nature or Eleusis. I don't remember it showing prominently anywhere in the stuff I had to learn about. As far as I've managed to understand it, Targossas doesn't like Eleusis because they're a bunch of dicks who keep attacking us. Sure, they might be one of our main enemies right now, but that's because of circumstance. They're pretty clearly not considered to be on the level of the Dark/Evil/Chaos triad. 
    I'd be interested in taking a look at these readings, merely because from the last sermon I heard from Targ their definition of why to oppose Darkness was basically "Twilight is dangerous and did some crap in the past, so we dont like him". Im really hoping the readings mentioned are more developed than that.
    They are. Although in the sermon-givers defense, Darkness is possibly the most complicated IC ethos to fully understand, at least for me - I guess I can't speak for everyone else. And I had the advantage of having had a couple different characters (including Antidas) in his pre-order/order at one point or another.

  • edited March 2017
    Before this discussion gets derailed even further I wanted to express similar frustrations. I appreciate @kiah speaking up. I understand that there is a lot more than just pacifism or combat etc. People like combat? Cool all the power to them. There's reasons that make combat a little hard for me as a player. I'm open to it. I will work on it on my own time though. I do appreciate @rangor 's original comment. Siena couldn't go to any other city role play wise. For once in my life I'm actually ENJOYING the game. Eleusis is cool for letting Siena be Siena which is way different compared to the rest of my gaming experience on Achaea. I was always frustrated with the shallamese mentality of "EVERYONE FIGHT NAO!!!" for example. (which I DO like conflict. I did have Siena in Cyrene for some time but it lead to a very boring playtime experience. I do like Eleusis because I can role play with others rather than be a rogue who daydreams in Cyrene or hunt all the time.) I do struggle to find a way to make Siena more passionate about Nature. As a new convert I'm sure she will get there. In the meantime she is just helping her village mates the best she can.

    image

  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna be
    Abyss is a place. Dont call it the Abyss.
    Huh. Neat.
  • Daeir said:
    Asmodron said:
    Nazihk said:
    As a relatively recent convert to Targossas, I think it is pretty apparent that Nature is a second-string enemy at best.

    Joining this city, basically everything I had to fucking read was about how Darkness and Evil and Chaos are bad and why we oppose them and all that jazz. All the sermons were about them. All the rituals were about them. Deucalion's history is specifically opposed to Chaos. They are pretty clearly the main enemies of Targossas by any reasonable standard.

    On the other hand, I don't remember reading a goddamn word about Nature or Eleusis. I don't remember it showing prominently anywhere in the stuff I had to learn about. As far as I've managed to understand it, Targossas doesn't like Eleusis because they're a bunch of dicks who keep attacking us. Sure, they might be one of our main enemies right now, but that's because of circumstance. They're pretty clearly not considered to be on the level of the Dark/Evil/Chaos triad. 
    I'd be interested in taking a look at these readings, merely because from the last sermon I heard from Targ their definition of why to oppose Darkness was basically "Twilight is dangerous and did some crap in the past, so we dont like him". Im really hoping the readings mentioned are more developed than that.
    The readings are okay, but the general consensus and understanding of Darkness is extremely limited in lots of people. Tends to be viewed as more antithetical to Light as anything "real" like the subjugation of Creation under Evil, or the Oblivion-singularity end. People gloss over the conclusion of the Great Work being the literal remaking of Creation in Twilight's image and direction as being anything but another hellish doomsday-end scenario for some reason. Never understood it.

    I've taken to calling it the coming of the "Abyss" IC to give it more credence as an actual threat. It's also honestly the most interesting enemy from a theological standpoint, because Twilight is anything but obvious in his motives for what he does, if we even find out what he's doing, unlike Evil and Chaos which tend to broadcast everything they do at any given moment.
    Yep. For this reason I tend to imply that Twilight is the most dangerous "villain" God (Khalas is out of comission, so yeah...). While the other two are quite obvious in their motives, Twilight's plots tend to have you unknowingly assisting His desires before it is too late to stop what He has unleashed. I've always held His and Apollyon's actions in high esteem.

    I have an interesting theorum/story that im planning to release in time to try and explain why He chooses to seek domination and remaking of the universe. Should be fun.
  • Chaos is clearly the most dangerous, imo.

    Twilight only wants to remake everything. Chaos wants to unmake everything.
  • Nazihk said:
    Chaos is clearly the most dangerous, imo.

    Twilight only wants to remake everything. Chaos wants to unmake everything.
    I suppose it depends on each one's definition of dangerous. I see an unseen blade that strikes you from behind and you find yourself waking up in chains with no memories of who you are and forced to mine coal for the rest of your days, as more dangerous than the known idea of chaos tryi g to unmake everything and a known group trying to push this.

    Basically unseen and unknown seems far more frightening than seen.
  • Pfff. Fear is the path to the dark side. Your post shows you are strong with the Force, but you are not a Jedi yet. 
  • Back to OP-- I personally love my life in Eleusis and can't think of any way it needs to change. Granted, I'm new to the game. I'm one of those pacifist Eleusians, and like Siena said, I love that Eleusis lets me be me. Story is, I joined Eleusis because Nature is pretty, and then I found out Gaia and Artemis want to destroy all the cities, and I'm like, nah cities are kinda pretty too? And so I find myself following Tarah and believing in Balance to a certain extent: cities are okay as long as they are not extremely destroying Nature (I do rather resent Hashan cutting down Northern Ithmia and would have fought them for that). I am not wholly pacifist: I do oppose Darkness, Chaos, and Evil, and would fight against them. But it makes me sad to see Eleusis and Targossas fight because I like them both. Although I understand and respect their reasoning for doing so. I do plan on preaching compassion and things later on, as was mentioned. There is plenty of RPing fun for me to do as a semi-pacifist Eleusian, and I am happy. Hugs!


    PS @Bail has a super interesting philosophy that I would recommend people ask him about.
  • edited March 2017
    Nazihk said:
    Chaos is clearly the most dangerous, imo.

    Twilight only wants to remake everything. Chaos wants to unmake everything.
    Nihilists want to unmake everything, but we are now a fairly small subsection of Chaos since the renaissance. It's more accurate to say that the Chaos faction wants to rootkit the universe for reasons as diverse as they are petty. Fundamentally and possibly permanently changing the way the world works in order to indulge some person's eccentricities is just as terrible as it sounds, but it's an entirely different kind of terrible compared to omnicide.
  • edited April 2017
    Aegoth said:

    idk, sexy anime big-boobed dragon girl is pretty enticing....



  • Cailin said:
    Back to OP-- I personally love my life in Eleusis and can't think of any way it needs to change. Granted, I'm new to the game. I'm one of those pacifist Eleusians, and like Siena said, I love that Eleusis lets me be me. Story is, I joined Eleusis because Nature is pretty, and then I found out Gaia and Artemis want to destroy all the cities, and I'm like, nah cities are kinda pretty too? And so I find myself following Tarah and believing in Balance to a certain extent: cities are okay as long as they are not extremely destroying Nature (I do rather resent Hashan cutting down Northern Ithmia and would have fought them for that). I am not wholly pacifist: I do oppose Darkness, Chaos, and Evil, and would fight against them. But it makes me sad to see Eleusis and Targossas fight because I like them both. Although I understand and respect their reasoning for doing so. I do plan on preaching compassion and things later on, as was mentioned. There is plenty of RPing fun for me to do as a semi-pacifist Eleusian, and I am happy. Hugs!


    PS @Bail has a super interesting philosophy that I would recommend people ask him about.
    Should tell me that IG right away, will cause you and us far less trouble in the long run.
    image
  • Rangor said:
    Cailin said:
    Back to OP-- I personally love my life in Eleusis and can't think of any way it needs to change. Granted, I'm new to the game. I'm one of those pacifist Eleusians, and like Siena said, I love that Eleusis lets me be me. Story is, I joined Eleusis because Nature is pretty, and then I found out Gaia and Artemis want to destroy all the cities, and I'm like, nah cities are kinda pretty too? And so I find myself following Tarah and believing in Balance to a certain extent: cities are okay as long as they are not extremely destroying Nature (I do rather resent Hashan cutting down Northern Ithmia and would have fought them for that). I am not wholly pacifist: I do oppose Darkness, Chaos, and Evil, and would fight against them. But it makes me sad to see Eleusis and Targossas fight because I like them both. Although I understand and respect their reasoning for doing so. I do plan on preaching compassion and things later on, as was mentioned. There is plenty of RPing fun for me to do as a semi-pacifist Eleusian, and I am happy. Hugs!


    PS @Bail has a super interesting philosophy that I would recommend people ask him about.
    Should tell me that IG right away, will cause you and us far less trouble in the long run.

    Arghhh, sorry about the thread necro, I haven't been on the forums in forever and just saw this.

    I wish I could edit or delete what I said, but I can't, so I have to try to correct it here.

    I've changed a lot since I wrote that. Even when I wrote it, I had a feeling that I didn't word it right, that something was a little off.
    1. I  apologize for the flippant remark about cities.
    2. I understand now why Targossas and Eleusis can never be totally at peace. Although I like some things (not all) about Targossas, and have a few Targossan friends. :)

    One thing that hasn't changed-- I am still a Concordi, and always will be.

    I don't care to raid or Crusade myself, but the LAST thing I want is for all Eleusians to be like me. You guys are a cool bunch.

    Anyways, will still have conversation with you IG if you want. :)
  • Necroing this thread as I believe there is too little representation on the part of the so labelled 'pacifists' side of the disunity within Eleusis, and at the same time, too much misrepresentation of them by others in the absence of their voice in the forums.

    These 'pacifists' are portrayed as hating all fighting and will impede other people from engaging in it. This is a misrepresentation that arise out of a lack of understanding on how other people's relationship with Achaea can differ from one's own experience.

    Players who play for the non-combat aspects of the game exist in EVERY city, even the most militant ones. Yet they do not have the same problem or same degree of friction as that of Eleusis. How are the 'pacifists' in Eleusis so different from their counterparts in other cities?

    The answer is, there is really no difference. The underlying cause of the divide has never been about pacifists versus combatants, as appear to be the sole axis being offered in this thread.

    Consider this. At least during pre-Ren, the forestal faction has been known for its 'zerg rush' when the forests come under threat. What this means is, players who do not usually care for combat often take part in defense when an actual transgression against Nature occurs. Those who do not take up arms themselves will also support those who do when they believe violence is called for.

    These 'pacifists' are not pacifists at all. They will fight or support fighting when they believe the cause and reason justified. So then why the divide in Eleusis? What is the cause? Perhaps the clue lies in the very title of this thread : "A way to make Eleusian RP make sense for -everyone-"

    Yes it is the RP that comes with the Renaissance(Ren) that has caused this long drawn out divide with no end in sight. Overnight, "the village of Eleusis, home of forestals" becomes "the village of the Order of Gaia, named Eleusis". Suddenly, there is the Viridian Charter authored by Gaia that all Eleusians have to abide by. It speaks of anti-civilization and the ultimate victory of Nature at the very end.

    Now, people who joined Eleusis before the Ren joined so because it was the community for all forestals(the village's founding purpose). They did not join to become members of an Order, or they would have joined the Order.

    Consider also, Nature is a very physical and tangible reality for a forestal's beliefs. It is not some creed-based system relying on scriptures or truths. The attempt to turn something so secular into a religion is not easily accepted by those who play characters that truly love Nature for itself.

    This is also why, even though one might think(or hoped for by others) that after such a long time, the divide will slide in favour of those who support the Charter, that has not happened at all. Even though new members have to swear by the Charter from their Day 1, they more often than not join the Nature faction for Nature and not for some God's vision about it.

    If we accept this explanation - that the RP is the cause of the divide, and not because of 'bad pacifists', then we can see why arguments(in this thread) like "But we left you an entire house, the Heartwood Kin, to do as you have always done" or "But there's this clause that says you do not have to do any of the anti-civilization stuff, Nature will win regardless of what you do" are really irrelevant to the subject. They are actually really degrading.

    Most of us join a community to be truly with like minded people and working towards the same cause, for the comradery whether as a combatant or administrator or any other role. It is no different for the forestals. Sectioning a huge portion of the community to go 'play house' and pretend everything is just as before is either an attempt at degradation or a display of insensitivity.

    Yes, even the forestals who do not cry for bloodshed care about the world, care about the forestals part in it. They want to be able to leave their mark on it. If Achaea is a living storybook, they do not want to already know the ending, much less the one offered by the Viridian Charter. What is there to live for if the ending is fixed? How much worse this becomes when you tell them they don't have to do anything and Nature will not only survive but actually 'win'? There is already a faction for nihilists and Chaos really suits their theme, not Nature.

    Still find it hard to understand why the divide exists?

    Regardless, the hard cold truth is that it does. Someone has suggested Gaia became dormant because she can't handle the divide. Many others have gone dormant because of it. Some prominent giant figures of the Nature community literally showed us their broken hearts in the public and poetry newsboard saying goodbye in the aftermath. How can this divide be mended?

    More than one person suggested that those who do not abide by the new order should leave. I believe that to be unfair. Even though ICly, the new anti-civilization stance is a product of Gaia, oocly, people guessed and probably rightly so that this new directive is actually the birthchild of a few players.

    Why should the majority of players condemn their characters to roguehood (the Heartwood kin outsizing the Scions by a few fold at the time) because of the action of the minority? Bear in mind, no other player based forestal communities exist outside of Eleusis. Of less importance, no cities are allowed to accept any members of the three forestal classes.

    Also if all players who do not care for Gaian ideology left Eleusis at the time after the Renaissance, I suspect those that remain will be too small to sustain itself efficiently. But that besides the point.

    I would like to suggest something. What someone posted in this thread makes alot of sense: "You want a place in Eleusis? Accept that the "violent" forestals have a place in Eleusis too and learn to get along already."

    Brilliant, as this can also mean that one should accept that the people who treats Nature as Nature and nothing more, exists in Eleusis and get along with them. This and the above really should be the case and yet this getting along is not allowed to happen because the Viridian Charter really only favours one side.

    I propose then the Viridian Charter be moved to the househall of the Scions. Afterall, Scions' ideology is practically the Charter itself. Just as the 'peaceful' people should not impose on the whole of Eleusis with their ideals as suggested by the other forumer, why then should the 'violent' people lord over everyone and dictate Eleusian(Eleusian as in everyone including Heartwood) foreign policy with the Charter backing them.

    Or are the 'violent' people so unconfident of their ideals that they must rely on this free win card that they deem backed by the admin? Are they so unconfident that they will not promote/roleplay their ideals on a level playing field to the bigger entity that is Eleusis?

    This solution I propose means that Eleusis at any point in time in the future, is only as anti-civilization as the collective will of its people. As opposed to a static state of constant maximum anti-civilization, Eleusis now has a chance to shift its foreign policy based on consensus/election of leaders. And this consensus will shift based on the political power that each side has. For instance, a charismatic and convincing anti-civilization leader may sway the Eleusian population towards a strong anti-civilization stance for a period of decades while he/she is active and vice-versa.

    Advantage of this is, players in Eleusis can play the political game and leave their mark by creating chapters in history that stand out. The state of Eleusis and by extension, the world, becomes affectable by players. While it may seems that this solution does not mend the division, which is true. I believe it will turn the schism into a healthier one as it allows both side to fairly compete. Other than that, I do not see how the schism can be closed without rewriting the ideals of one of the two houses.

    Another healthy sign that was given to us by the admin that may support this idea is this:

      the admin said on page 698 of the Quotes thread - "Just a coincidence, there's no consolidated push to make cities to conform to that template. "

    The template being referred to is one where the Gods are at the very top of the city hierarchy. This statement by the admin was also proven recently during a recent Hashan coup to convert it to religious rule. The coup was allowed to be overturned by consensus from the Hashani population. Elections were held and the results honoured without any admin interference thus returning Hashan to secular rule once more. I have faith that if a 'DArkness Charter' suddenly appears in Hashan, the admin will allow consensus to overturn it.

    I hope this brings you hope, Eleusis. Good luck, forestals! Have faith that Achaea indeed has player-run cities!

  • holy fuck this needs a tldr
  • KryptonKrypton shi-Khurena
    TL;DR: Delete Eleusis.
  • edited June 2017
    jesus...
     @Aegoth can you not be a dick for two seconds? If you don't want to read it then don't read it and shut -up-. Whoever this guy is, he's intelligent and it's refreshing to read something someone has put actual thought into. Honestly, he's put more time into writing a post than I ever could have, but that doesn't deserve any disrespect. piss off, aegoth, you jackass. 
  • Kiah said:
    jesus...
     @Aegoth can you not be a dick for two seconds? If you don't want to read it then don't read it and shut -up-. Whoever this guy is, he's intelligent and it's refreshing to read something someone has put actual thought into. Honestly, he's put more time into writing a post than I ever could have, but that doesn't deserve any disrespect. piss off, aegoth, you jackass. 

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