The Revelation

Skye

Makarios said:

Skye said:

Datrius said:

Skye said:

Datrius said:

 it's going to get...pretty griefy.

What do you mean 'going to get'?

Skye, we both know it will get worse.

Which begs the question if we're capable of having an event that doesn't ultimately boil down to which group of people can throw together the biggest gank squad.

And then after setting all the different Orders at each other's throats, you  tell them 'btw don't forget about the Tsol'teth that wants to destroy you all'.

This is not a sequence of events which logically culminates in every group deciding that they need to work together after spending two weeks basically encouraged to gank and grief each other. After this we're just going to be railroaded and reminded that yes there is an overarching plot because "OH GUESS WHAT. You need to be friends again and fight together otherwise we're all gonna die."

That's just bad storytelling.

If players want to conveniently forget the fact that you're not actually the (immediate) enemy for once, that's on them.

I'd say that's actually realism. People are selfish, and often that selfishness leads to very short sighted decisions. Maybe Sapience could do with a voice of reason!

I personally am a strong believer that choice (and consequence of choice) is what makes a good narrative. Players can make whatever choices they like during this period, but certain decisions may come back to haunt them later.

Sorry but while I agree that there's an element of realism in people being selfish, I don't believe that the GM should allow the element of choice to let the narrative (or narrative logic) get away from him when there's already a pre-determined sequence of events.

Basically what's happening right now is people aren't just being 'selfish' or 'making short-sighted decisions'. They're literally foregoing any kind of established RP or character relations for the PK.

It means that someone of whom you were perfectly okay friends with 24 hours ago is rolling you 3 or 4 deep without even a word. Or people from one Order in a city are perfectly kosher with attacking the Order of the God who patrons their city or has had prior relations to said city.

I believe that part of a GM's responsibility is knowing their player's likelihood to break character 'for lulz' (and this is Achaea so that's like a 90% in the face anything involving the opportunity for consequence-free group ganks), and knowing how to curb it or encourage it towards the intended narrative while still giving an element of choice within a controlled environment. Sorry but there's no roleplay in this. Just a very one-sided sandbox brawl before we all get funneled back into the plot.

Nicola

From what I've seen, people aren't foregoing RP for PK, but cities and orders are working out priorities, and this isn't easy. Everyone has an opinion, but it seem to largely be the case that personal friendships are less important right now than working out a way to best and most efficiently help the Gods.

The conversations about how do we choose which God? Patron first and then city associated Gods? Should we ignore factional ties because Sartan/OtherGod would be good to have on side in a fight? And so on, are actually really interesting.

Frederich

The only things I've disliked were..

A) Gank squads at Moghedu.  Literally only 1 way out.
People attacking anyone who even LOOK AT A GOD DAMN SHARD
C) Did I mention how B yet?  This was really bad day 1.

Hopefully B and C get fixed up and dealt with pretty quickly, but it's actually been.. kinda fun?  I mean, aside from our progress lookin like it's amounting to nothing after 40~ shards dumped into it.

Krypton

Makarios said:

I personally am a strong believer that choice (and consequence of choice) is what makes a good narrative. Players can make whatever choices they like during this period, but certain decisions may come back to haunt them later.

Makarios

Skye said:

Makarios said:

Skye said:

Datrius said:

Skye said:

Datrius said:

 it's going to get...pretty griefy.

What do you mean 'going to get'?

Skye, we both know it will get worse.

Which begs the question if we're capable of having an event that doesn't ultimately boil down to which group of people can throw together the biggest gank squad.

And then after setting all the different Orders at each other's throats, you  tell them 'btw don't forget about the Tsol'teth that wants to destroy you all'.

This is not a sequence of events which logically culminates in every group deciding that they need to work together after spending two weeks basically encouraged to gank and grief each other. After this we're just going to be railroaded and reminded that yes there is an overarching plot because "OH GUESS WHAT. You need to be friends again and fight together otherwise we're all gonna die."

That's just bad storytelling.

If players want to conveniently forget the fact that you're not actually the (immediate) enemy for once, that's on them.

I'd say that's actually realism. People are selfish, and often that selfishness leads to very short sighted decisions. Maybe Sapience could do with a voice of reason!

I personally am a strong believer that choice (and consequence of choice) is what makes a good narrative. Players can make whatever choices they like during this period, but certain decisions may come back to haunt them later.

Sorry but while I agree that there's an element of realism in people being selfish, I don't believe that the GM should allow the element of choice to let the narrative (or narrative logic) get away from him when there's already a pre-determined sequence of events.

Basically what's happening right now is people aren't just being 'selfish' or 'making short-sighted decisions'. They're literally foregoing any kind of established RP or character relations for the PK.

It means that someone of whom you were perfectly okay friends with 24 hours ago is rolling you 3 or 4 deep without even a word. Or people from one Order in a city are perfectly kosher with attacking the Order of the God who patrons their city or has had prior relations to said city.

I believe that part of a GM's responsibility is knowing their player's likelihood to break character 'for lulz' (and this is Achaea so that's like a 90% in the face anything involving the opportunity for consequence-free group ganks), and knowing how to curb it or encourage it towards the intended narrative while still giving an element of choice within a controlled environment. Sorry but there's no roleplay in this. Just a very one-sided sandbox brawl before we all get funneled back into the plot.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. A couple of points:
- You're working under the incorrect assumption that there is a pre determined sequence of events. Some things will happen, but much like with the Conclave things will definitely change based on what people do.

- If people are throwing away established relationships/rp for a chance at being an avatar, as I mentioned that choice will definitely be something that comes back to haunt them later.

- Conflict of interest is very much intended.

Klendathu

Frederich said:

The only things I've disliked were..

A) Gank squads at Moghedu.  Literally only 1 way out.
People attacking anyone who even LOOK AT A GOD DAMN SHARD
C) Did I mention how B yet?  This was really bad day 1.

Hopefully B and C get fixed up and dealt with pretty quickly, but it's actually been.. kinda fun?  I mean, aside from our progress lookin like it's amounting to nothing after 40~ shards dumped into it.

That's 10 times what some orders have managed

Tesha

I haven't seen anyone breaking character or doing things for lulz, everything I've seen has made a lot of sense, but I've only been awake the last two hours or so. People want their gods' shrines fixed, now. Most people don't care about the other Divine's shrines. Jhui and Dunn aren't particularly interested in Aurora's shrine getting fixed, and Targossas isn't very interested in Babel's shrine getting fixed. They're pretty indifferent about Pandora and Neraeos, and wouldn't hesitate to take a splinter from either of those two gods for the Bloodsworn.

I haven't seen anything but roleplay, and it's been very nice to see some old faces returning to get in the mix. Welcome back @Jhui!

Zulah

After your master shrine is up the Avatars will see a lot more combat use I'm sure. I see this as the first stage that ends with people saying: I just wanted to make sure my divine was set first.

I'm eager to see an Avatar team do some raid damage whence people learn how to really utilize the powers together

Korben

Skye said:

Which begs the question if we're capable of having an event that doesn't ultimately boil down to which group of people can throw together the biggest gank squad.

And then after setting all the different Orders at each other's throats, you  tell them 'btw don't forget about the Tsol'teth that wants to destroy you all'.

This is not a sequence of events which logically culminates in every group deciding that they need to work together after spending two weeks basically encouraged to gank and grief each other.

Some Orders will inevitably believe they can help bring about the destruction of their enemies at the hands of the Tsol'teth -and- survive the Tsol'teth. Hubris.

Siduri

As a rule of thumb, I only attack enemy avatars, and let neutral avatars go. I help whichever Bloodsworn avatar is up.
Will grab any splinter, however.

Farrah

Zulah said:

After your master shrine is up the Avatars will see a lot more combat use I'm sure. I see this as the first stage that ends with people saying: I just wanted to make sure my divine was set first.

I'm eager to see an Avatar team do some raid damage whence people learn how to really utilize the powers together

People are waiting that long to use powers...? Wow. I'm all over them now. More avatar kills = more essence for my god.

Plus my god said he was cool with me burning everyone to death with the essence. He likes fire.

Szanthax

Farrah said:

Zulah said:

After your master shrine is up the Avatars will see a lot more combat use I'm sure. I see this as the first stage that ends with people saying: I just wanted to make sure my divine was set first.

I'm eager to see an Avatar team do some raid damage whence people learn how to really utilize the powers together

People are waiting that long to use powers...? Wow. I'm all over them now. More avatar kills = more essence for my god.

Plus my god said he was cool with me burning everyone to death with the essence. He likes fire.

Got me all like

Frederich

Scratch that.  People releasing Big Z, then putting him in places you can't get past are the real scumlords of this event.

Nazihk

Skye said:
 After this we're just going to be railroaded and reminded that yes there is an overarching plot because "OH GUESS WHAT. You need to be friends again and fight together otherwise we're all gonna die."

I look at events this way from an OOC perspective:

They are not going to go "Well, looks like you were infighting too much and lost so the world is over and I guess Achaea's closing now." Hell, they're almost certainly not even going to go so far as to destroy your city or organizations. Too disruptive to the game, too many players out too much of their investment.

So, with that in mind, why does your RP have to be reasonable, especially when reasonable RP results in boring gameplay like "Everybody works together"?

Zulah

Nazihk said:

Skye said:
 After this we're just going to be railroaded and reminded that yes there is an overarching plot because "OH GUESS WHAT. You need to be friends again and fight together otherwise we're all gonna die."

I look at events this way from an OOC perspective:

They are not going to go "Well, looks like you were infighting too much and lost so the world is over and I guess Achaea's closing now." Hell, they're almost certainly not even going to go so far as to destroy your city or organizations. Too disruptive to the game, too many players out too much of their investment.

So, with that in mind, why does your RP have to be reasonable, especially when reasonable RP results in boring gameplay like "Everybody works together"?

Tell that to Shallam

Szanthax

Zulah said:

Nazihk said:

Skye said:
 After this we're just going to be railroaded and reminded that yes there is an overarching plot because "OH GUESS WHAT. You need to be friends again and fight together otherwise we're all gonna die."

I look at events this way from an OOC perspective:

They are not going to go "Well, looks like you were infighting too much and lost so the world is over and I guess Achaea's closing now." Hell, they're almost certainly not even going to go so far as to destroy your city or organizations. Too disruptive to the game, too many players out too much of their investment.

So, with that in mind, why does your RP have to be reasonable, especially when reasonable RP results in boring gameplay like "Everybody works together"?

Tell that to Shallam

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that started like a year long process of house shifts and aligning each city etc.

Bann

I want one of those goblins

Dunn

Hence my shout. Way more fun to go into an area knowing everyone is gunning for you. #Oblivion

Frederich

tons of 'infighting' was shitty.

the sensible RP thing to do was team up together to actually fight off the hordes of Tsol'teth that are gonna come to break our asses in.

Huge pvp fights are lame.  Ashtan opted out, so you can still get some PVP.

Dunn

Sensible RP is subjective as fuck. 

Jarrod

I'm personally not a big fan of the gank-PK that becomes the norm in these types of situations. Have the biggest group or the cheapest tactic or run fast does not interest me, I'm sure others disagree which is fine. It's pretty easy to paint helping the collective or not to fit RP if you're a bit creative, so I don't really consider either side 'good RP', it's whether you make the narrative that it fits that defines that.

From the individual PK standpoint, I see it as filling all the Master shrines so you don't have to worry about wasting essence using powers. After they're the only thing 'at stake' is a few uses of a power. At that point people will only have enjoyment as a reason to gather splinters instead of obligation, so there will just be big power-boosted fights.

Also, I kind of took over the world with my narrative. I went to an Ivy League RP school. I'm very highly educated. I know RP, I have the best RP.

Zulah

Winter is coming... Do the 7 Kingdoms unite to fight a power stronger than mere mortals? Or will they squabble over a throne of... wait wrong story... similar plot..

Suppose you could say it would have made better "rp" if they came together to fight, but even in fantasy stories people are greedy and have trouble seeing past their own self interests. I guess Achaea isn't that much different after all.

Aegoth

Taking the conflict out of a world event ultimately makes it stale, boring, and uncreative. Sure, the Pk hating noncoms might enjoy it, because conflict is anathema to them... but Mak and crew built us this event with hard work, blood sacrifices of babies, and the tears if virgins. Whybwould we do them a disservice my throwing all their hard work in their face by going "lol no conflict anymore, just teddybears and rainbows". It's insulting and totally demeans everything they worked hard for. I'm frankly disappointed in the pkayerbase. We can do better than Achaean Snoozefest 2k16

Nazihk

Aegoth said:

Taking the conflict out of a world event ultimately makes it stale, boring, and uncreative. Sure, the Pk hating noncoms might enjoy it, because conflict is anathema to them... but Mak and crew built us this event with hard work, blood sacrifices of babies, and the tears if virgins. Whybwould we do them a disservice my throwing all their hard work in their face by going "lol no conflict anymore, just teddybears and rainbows". It's insulting and totally demeans everything they worked hard for. I'm frankly disappointed in the pkayerbase. We can do better than Achaean Snoozefest 2k16

But if we don't team up the world will literally end!!!!11!111111

Zulah

Nazihk said:

Aegoth said:

Taking the conflict out of a world event ultimately makes it stale, boring, and uncreative. Sure, the Pk hating noncoms might enjoy it, because conflict is anathema to them... but Mak and crew built us this event with hard work, blood sacrifices of babies, and the tears if virgins. Whybwould we do them a disservice my throwing all their hard work in their face by going "lol no conflict anymore, just teddybears and rainbows". It's insulting and totally demeans everything they worked hard for. I'm frankly disappointed in the pkayerbase. We can do better than Achaean Snoozefest 2k16

But if we don't team up the world will literally end!!!!11!111111

Tell that to the Lannister's!

Kez

Aegoth said:

Taking the conflict out of a world event ultimately makes it stale, boring, and uncreative. Sure, the Pk hating noncoms might enjoy it, because conflict is anathema to them... but Mak and crew built us this event with hard work, blood sacrifices of babies, and the tears if virgins. Whybwould we do them a disservice my throwing all their hard work in their face by going "lol no conflict anymore, just teddybears and rainbows". It's insulting and totally demeans everything they worked hard for. I'm frankly disappointed in the pkayerbase. We can do better than Achaean Snoozefest 2k16

If they were committed to a certain path I'm sure they would've put some effort into making it the obvious choice instead of going, "Okay, you're ALLOWED to go that way." It's more of a disservice to assume they were so rigid in the plans.

Makarios

Personally, I'm quite happy with how things are going so far, just as an aside. We fully expected someone to try to get people working together. I also expect said alliances to break down over time as people get more concerned about essence reserves, as at the end of the day most people are going to look out for number one (their god in this case).

Been very cool seeing all the shady deals/people deciding to go at it alone despite the odds/etc. I'm sure we'll see some interesting developments as things escalate.

Dunn

Mak you wanna make a mortal and join the cause? I'll front your tri trans. 

Siduri

Diplomacy is fun RP too, some of use enjoy that side. We've had hundreds of events about smacking each other, I'm glad we're able to make something work for once.

Makarios

Dunn said:

Mak you wanna make a mortal and join the cause? I'll front your tri trans. 

I'm already fully booked for this month, alas.