The Bal'met event

Xith

So I'm not familiar with this Sartan fellow's history. Where does he rank approximately in powerfulishness on a list of all non-Pentad gods?

(Include Bal'met in your rankings)

Thaumas

For many, Xith, Sartan is an ordinary god. But for the nostalgic rest, he is the ultimate badass incarnate whose coolness was only augmented by the time he was in two parts.

I'm not sure how this mega reset will affect the history. What was the point of sundering?

Edit: Fridge logic: if he's cut in half again, that means Apples can make a comeback.

Ruth

Sartan on par with Bal'met, more or less. Remember that pre-Sundering Sartan was the one who did all those things with Valuanara and had to be quelled by the pantheon + Phaestus heaping a mountain on him.

Skye

I think you can best describe Sartan as a God who acted in a way most people wished their Gods would act. Joking bits aside like how he once told the women to go back to the kitchen and bake pies for their men, he wasn't afraid to wreak punishment on his own followers for failures. He inspired a kind of fanatic loyalty and devotion in his followers that, quite frankly, every other God would be hardpressed to match. You can see it even today, a lot of the older players would *refuse* to accept a different IC patron in Mhaldor or even someone who would stand on equal footing with Sartan.

Skye

Thaumas said:

I'm not sure how this mega reset will affect the history. What was the point of sundering?

I think this isn't so much a mega-reset as just an IC way of returning to the original form. The Sundering still sort of served its purpose historically. We'll still remember it happened. We'll also remember that Pentharian cleaved Apples gloriously and Shaitan reconstituted himself as Sartan using the pieces or whatever he did (God knows). We could probably just put it down to a 'waste not want not' approach on Divine Essence, or Shaitan always wanted to break up with Apples for being a whiny ho and being difficult in bed, and he wanted his own throne room for himself. Or whatever.


Ultimately the return is a good idea. It breathes new life into Mhaldor, which is always very much needed since they're don't really enjoy the same kind of refreshing 'ohey new god!' opportunities that the other cities do. I'm pretty sure they split Sartan because they didn't want to be reliant on just him for Mhaldor. Or something. But this has evidently proven itself kind of pointless since there's no point in giving Mhaldor two Gods if neither of them are going to be around anyway. Whether you go Oppression or Suffering, it all seems kind of a catch-all for Evil. IOW Pepsi-cola or Coca-cola, it's all cola. Similarly if Celani don't want to play an Evil God, they're not going to fill either role regardless.

Silas

You're missing Keresis. She's on par with Sartan now.

Skye

We do not talk about Keresis >_>

But yes, I'm aware that she's on par with Sartan, but there was considerable resistance to accepting her as such. At least as much resistance as Mhaldor dares exhibit regarding these things. We can't forget the first time they tried to put her on equal with Sartan either. They trolled her with Sartan-hails until she went to Ashtan in a huff. An ironic reflection of what happened this time when they brought her in and Tagg et al moved to Ashtan in a huff >_>

Nizaris

Tvistor said:

(1) I'm interested to see a pure Oppression Mhaldor. (2) A strangely huge amount of Mhaldorians have been able to get to a high CR without any notable combat skill. Strength of the mind is all well and fine, but one of the Truths says combat is vital. I'd hardly excuse myself from the ranks of those who don't know much about combat, but I am doing my best to learn at the moment.

I also understand perfectly well that not everyone wants to learn combat and it'd be silly to force everyone into it. The hypocrisy is just very confusing to observe in game. Take for example, Daeven. He's ranked a slave, but could probably cut through the vast majority of Mhaldorians, meaning many of his superiors are only superior in the sense they have a larger number on CWHO.

(3) Learning about Evil also isn't precisely something you need a degree in. The Seven Truths are spectacularly simple to understand, and while it is possible to debate endlessly about how X does Y, and why Shaitan said Z, as far as actually taking action goes, the path forwards is generally extremely clear. Because of that, a slave can sometimes speak just as eloquently as a superior, fight more fiercely in some cases, but still be an inferior by convention. (assuming they don't RP by getting things wrong deliberately)

DIE AODFIONN, DIE.

@Tvistor

(1) I hope not. This is not Shaitan by a different name; this is the fusion of Shaitan and Apollyon. Nizaris, for example, is one of many who has based himself largely around the concept of Suffering. He will continue to blindly worship Sartan, and will likely join the Sartai. But what "clicks" for him, intellectually, is Suffering, and its interplay with Oppression. I don't think that Mhaldor wants to even come close to chasing off half of its player base, considering our problems with population. The admin got rid of Shaitan and Apollyon largely, I think, to make one large order from two smaller orders. For Sartanic RP to really work, it is going to have to be about fusion, and not about throwing out ideas. Thankfully, the former Shayatin and Adikoi players that I've talked to sound largely like they are on board with this need.

(2) Generally, I agree with you, here. It's unfortunate that many high-ranking Mhaldorians (including myself) have little proficiency in combat, from an RP perspective. But, while combat is important, but it is not the be-all end-all. Combat is a tool for RP, the same way that emotes, tmotes, journals, cities, classes, etc are. Just as one really shouldn't sacrifice combat proficiency completely for the sake of the scholarly route, one should not sacrifice scholarship completely for the sake of combat. Specializing is fine, but we should really be "jacks of all trades, but masters of one" (or more). After all, he who wins the war writes the history.

(3) No, you don't need a degree to understand the concepts of Evil. But, I can't fault someone for wanting to develop something more intensive. If that's what makes playing the game fun for them, and for others, then by all means, they should go for it. This is what I mean about the "jacks of all trades, but masters of one" idea -- there ought to be two levels of combat understanding, and two levels of RP understanding: the first for those that want to have a passable understanding, and the second for those that want to specialize further.

Also, I don't equate Shaitan with being purely about combat, and Apollyon with being purely about RP. Though in some ways, that's the way that it has occurred under the previous paradigm. I think that one of the strengths of the new regime is that it is going to force these previously disparate ways of thinking back together, and making something better.

Azor

Until and unless Someone says otherwise, Keresis is a God of Evil equal in status with Sartan. I never had a problem with it, and I think that some of the Mhaldorians of longer standing perhaps haven't given Keresis (or at least New Keresis) a fair shot.

Tvistor

@Nizaris

I posted before Sartan was formed. We had just Shaitan at the time of that post.

And yes, but in the Naga you see people sake combat proficiency completely for RP. A lot of that probably stems from how difficult serpent combat is to get into, though. It is very jarring when our Dreadborn can utterly destroy the HL in a fair fight though, while still debating and discussing Evil fluently. My opinion on this is very largely influenced by the current state of the Naga, by the way, being Naga myself. It's inevitable some alts are gong to be better than established Mhaldorians, but easily over half of my Housemates don't even know how  to lock someone standing still, without fitness, rebounding and sileris. I myself am only slightly better than that.

In essence, there are two levels of understanding to combat and RP. However, while it's pretty much an absolute requirement to have a passable grasp of Evil, the same isn't true for combat when it should be. I have always admired the Maldaathi for that, but I am forced to accept I can not expect Dreadborn to buy artefact dirks.

Also, you can kill someone if you really need to, if not everyone. Ask Jiraishin or Jurixe to venomlock you, and things will get awkward very quickly. (no offense to either of them, they are definitely cool)

Veldrin

Delphinus said:

Tahquil said:

Tarah, Goddess of Suffering says with a smile, "Join Mark for five years. No boats, No islands, No city hiding."

And then he burrowed for five years. Way to beat the system, Veldrin. +1

Got the entire wilderness to hidestay in! I can't be tracked or portalled to! And if someone senses me I'll know! :-$

Alynna

Skye said:

We do not talk about Keresis >_>

We can't forget the first time they tried to put her on equal with Sartan either. They trolled her with Sartan-hails until she went to Ashtan in a huff. >_>

That's not what happened.

Lodi

@Tvistor:

Its far easier for a combatant to get house and city favors (imo) than it is for a Mhaldorian non-combatant. All you have to do is monitor the logs to see this. Yes, I'm a semi decent rank within my House, City and Order, but that's taken me years to get there. I often see young combatants flying up the ranks faster than you can say 'Tekken'. (Edit: This isn't me complaining, btw. I'm more than ok with a slow and steady plod through the ranks )

I think, over all, its the other way around in Mhaldor than how you've pitched it. The combatant's are over dominating and have done so for ages. You say that combat is the only thing that really counts, but that's so not true. This fallacy has been Mhaldor's downfall time and time again. This is Mhaldor's great weakness, actually. I've seen the pattern repeat more time's than Lodi's tortured Shallam's orphans.

Some Cities lean too far towards rp/creativity/scholarship and neglect their defenses. This leads to disaster, as people go dormant because they're sick of getting nailed all the time. In Mhaldor its the other way around.

When anti-rp/anti-scholarship/anti-creativity becomes the dominant political mode, the city stagnates because our culture dies. After awhile, even the combatants start leaving because they want to be in a more exciting environment (see the mass exodus to Ashtan last year); an environment made exciting by the hard work of rp/scholarship/ creative types.

For a city to be fully functioning you need both factions to exist in equilibrium. They need to support and encourage each other and not squabble childishly. You need a few specialists in each camp as much as you need all rounders. Without this then cities just crumble away into inactivity.

Achilles

Lodi said:

Its far easier for a combatant to get house and city favors (imo) than it is for a Mhaldorian non-combatant. All you have to do is monitor the logs to see this. Yes, I'm a semi decent rank within my House, City and Order, but that's taken me years to get there. I often see young combatants flying up the ranks faster than you can say 'Tekken'.

I think this is the case in every city in conflict (probably less so in Cyrene and Hashan).  Combat is easily quantifiable while someone who is good at lectures/essays/scholarly achievements are far more qualitative.

Lodi

@Achilles: Yeah, that makes sense. I'm not a member of any of those cities so couldn't comment. Most scholars (I'm guessing) are quite happy to progress more slowly, I know I am.

Ruth

Combat isn't entirely hard to get into. The hard part comes when you want to be good at it.

That said, now that Sartan is back, I'm wondering how the event will continue to progress and what will happen to his deal with Bal'met.

Tvistor

Haha, I've no problem as long as you've tried. So many people do not even do that. I don't think combat is the only thing that matters. I personally would not be able to stand a Mhaldorian for no other reason than he can fight and has Mhaldor in his honours. I just feel Mhaldor has sacrificed a balance here. There's really no reason that someone specializing in RP can not make the effort to try and learn some combat, even if they are ultimately unsuccesful. At the least, even if they lose frequently, they won't just die in three doublestabs to the newbie that joined five days ago. In the same way I'd expect a combatant to at least be able to hold a mediocre discussion on Evil, I would love it if all our RP-centered players could put up a passable fight.

They don't need to be fantastic. They'd just need to be an actual threat. It is harder for some classes than others, since a novice monk can kill someone eventually with even basic instruction, whereas a serpent and apostate could throw themselves futilely at SVO for an hour with no progress if they are new to combat, but it is a reality.

I've been splitting my time between cultivating a balance between cultural awareness and cracking skulls with the Naga novices (and other novices too, really) and they're taking to it really well.

I'd like to make a thread about this, but I don't want to deal with non-Mhaldorians jumping in and plastering uninformed suppositions everywhere. For the sake of clarity, I'm not talking about raiding and defiling as combat -- I'm talking about straight up dueling. Anyone can lean on a snipe or choke alias.

Skye

@Alynna well, okay it was more of a misunderstanding over some shrine placement within the city. But that's just a minor detail >_> When obliquely threatened with the prospect of having no God on their side (to help with administrative matters and otherwise) the entire Mhaldorian CT simply chose to respond with a bunch of "HAIL SARTAN + HAIL THE TYRANNUS" instead of going "...okay." Which leaves an impression.

Lodi

@Tvistor: Yeah, I agree with you there. Heh.

p.s. I edited out (just before you replied) the bit about me spending loads of money on trying to train myself. Thought it sounded like I was just making excuses for sucking. Which I do when it comes to combat. Am adding this now so people know what your talking about.

"I'd like to make a thread about this, but I don't want to deal with non-Mhaldorians jumping in and plastering uninformed suppositions everywhere."

I know what you mean. I've always thought it would be cool for each city to have their own sub-forum on these boards. Actually... *quickly dashes over to the Golden Dais of Creation*

Arlanda

I would think if this event doesn't end quickly Sartan's Order will find it hard to develop. Their shrines won't last long anywhere outside Mhaldor when 5 cities are out to drop them. Before I could go probe the shrine at our anchor it was already dropped. At least if it is resolved, it will be like Shallam (and maybe Eleusis) against Mhaldor but Shallam would have to deal with Ashtan too. That would make it easier for Mhaldor and Sartan's Order to survive. Not when it is Shallam, Ashtan, Hashan, Cyrene and Eleusis against Mhaldor.

Tvistor

Fortunately shrines are kinda dumb and aren't really a measure of progress in these exceptional circumstances.

Jurixe

I had a tl;dr post written, but it's mostly irrelevant to actual topic so never mind.

Lodi said:

@Tvistor:

When anti-rp/anti-scholarship/anti-creativity becomes the dominant political mode, the city stagnates because our culture dies. After awhile, even the combatants start leaving because they want to be in a more exciting environment (see the mass exodus to Ashtan last year); an environment made exciting by the hard work of rp/scholarship/ creative types.

I agree with a lot of your post, Lodi, but this part. Those who defected to Ashtan can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a lack of interesting roleplay was what drove them away to Ashtan, it was just an unfavourable political situation at the time that had nothing to do with the reasons you mentioned. 

In other notes, YAY SARTAN looking forward to seeing how this all turns out for Mhaldor. 

Tanris

The majority of the high profile Mhaldorian defections were very exceptional circumstances which (hopefully) will never repeat themselves.

Milenka

Xith said:

So I'm not familiar with this Sartan fellow's history. Where does he rank approximately in powerfulishness on a list of all non-Pentad gods?

(Include Bal'met in your rankings)

Lord Sartan is also the divine founder of Mhaldor and the Maldaathi. In my opinion one of the most entertaining historical events of Achaea (from the Shrine wars, the infernals leaving Ashtan and the rise of the Baelgrim Fortress - so wish Milenka had been there). 

Lodi

Jurixe said:

 Those who defected to Ashtan can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a lack of interesting roleplay was what drove them away to Ashtan, it was just an unfavourable political situation at the time that had nothing to do with the reasons you mentioned.

Yeah, I fully understand the complex political situation that lead up to their defection. I also wasn't indicating a lack of interesting RP was the cause. My point revolves around the idea of culture, which runs far, far deeper than a lack of interesting RP.  Our cultural framework was undeniably decaying long before the mass exodus occurred. This decline was a contributing factor during those times. People where leaving even before the alliance with Ashtan ended.

Things are getting better though, with dedicated individuals like yourself at the helm.

This is getting very off topic though...

Jiraishin

@Tvistor
Combat has much greater requirements in terms of understanding/using game mechanics than RP does.  If a Dreadborn can outfight and outtalk Jiraishin, good for him. He'll rise fast. It's one of the awkward compromises of the game that not all of the people who should be able to fight can fight. Often I wish that Jiraishin could, or better yet just murder. It warps my RP and his IC personality that he -can't- fight, and it's quite frustrating. But being a combatant barely proficient in venomlocks and such, which is all my experience has taught me to hope for, doesn't make much more sense.

Tvistor

Being 'okay' is not too difficult, or at least understanding the underlying principles. The difficult thing is obviously that combat skill is an OOC skill. You can put in 1,000 hours on your main, and any combatant with more experience can alt and still retain that edge.

It is just jarring when a novice can take out a superior effortlessly.

Jhui

Arlanda said:

At least if it is resolved, it will be like Shallam (and maybe Eleusis) against Mhaldor but Shallam would have to deal with Ashtan too. 

Maybe Eleusis??? AND IN PARENTHESES??  What is the meaning of this

Jiraishin

@Tvistor Understanding the underlying principles is not the same as putting them in practice.

Tanris

@Jiraishin:
Honestly, what separates the vast majority of top tier from mid tier is the fact that they understand the mechanics. If you know how something works you can generally figure out how to abuse it (same goes for systems). Once you know what you want to do and how you're going to get there, its usually just a matter of alias memorisation and situational awareness. (Offensively speaking).