Mining and Legions

Sarapis

Siduri said:

Sarapis said:

Siduri said:

Tesha said:

Their army will suffer losses as they continue attacking, as I understand from one of @Sarapis 's answers to my early questions seen here:

Sarapis said:

Tesha said:

Oh, that's neat. The 20-30 was just a guess. I like how if you claim less often the rewards pile up, but it gets riskier. I look forward to trying to figure it out! At first glance it seems really intimidating and it feels like if you don't start right now you'll have a nightmare getting started later when other people have super strong legions, but maybe not, since you only lose comms and some of your workers. 

I don't think so, because there is inevitable attrition with legions if they're used for defense or attack, but we'll see.

While true, having 5+ mines mean that they recover from this attrition to a much higher pace (especially since you can't use level 1 warriors to do any attrition on them)

Having five mines doesn't help you level up your soldiers any faster than having a couple big mines does (unless there's a bug that's letting people have more than 1000 soldiers in their Legion...50 full squads) does. The most efficient way to level up your guys is to stuff a big mine full of half them, half miners, on a big lode, and you can only do that twice before you've basically run out of squad space.

Does this confirm that troops garrisoned in a stronghold do not gain levels?

As the only way that troops level up is by being in a mine that is producing raw comms, correct.

Sarapis

Btw, I just tripled iron production in villages.

Ahmet

Sarapis said:

Btw, I just tripled iron production in villages.

Kazu

I'm disappointed so far in the system, but that's mainly because I haven't been able to participate at all. Hopefully I'll have a chance at one of the remaining gems, but I honestly doubt it.

Kitiara

Hmm well firstly I'd like to say this is an AWESOME idea, I like how it is not another extracting skill but a more interactive play style for it. Well done on originality. However...

By the time I was able to play and test it out all the spots were taken, a 6 room span from the original list location is way too small and all possible spots are already setup. So the only option for me to even try this new functionality is to take over a mine which is a catch 22 if you will.... You cannot really take over a mine if your legion squads are not leveled and you cannot level your squads if you have no mine.

It is nice looking at from a distance, but I cannot get involved and try it out due to this problem.

Greys

Yeah its just so frustrating to talk to people who are coming in and tell them about it then say there is literally no way they can participate.

Kazu

I hope the prospecting cost is removed soon. It amplifies my annoyance with the system when I'm losing gold to even check to see if anything is open. I've probably spent around 10-15k just looking for open spots. I know Daeir said he spent more than 25k in rants.

Aelios

Stumbled across a little play in the Ithmia.


"Hey guys! Check out this new mechanic! Doesn't it look awesome?"

"Yeah yeah! How do I do it?"

"Well @Greys, unless you are one of the rich kids, you have stand back here by the fence until they're tired and don't want to take anymore turns."


"But that's not fair! We should all get a turn!"

"Now now, @Greys, do you see that wall over there?"

"Yes, the one with all the people frothing at the mouth looking like they're about to start a race?"

"Yes, @Greys. If you want to participate, you must race all of those people to the first opening you see within 6 rooms of one of these lodes."

"...what? I don't like this game."


~Fin.

Aelios

Know what I think is a cool idea?? 


Randomly scatter three dozen lodes across the wilderness, identifiable by some L indicator or something in Mountainous areas, or Tundra areas, or whatever... this would bring people who legitimately want to prospect a solid chance to randomly stumble across one. And once the mine is established, identify it with a * sign or something to not make it ninja like. 

Sarapis

Some of you guys appear to be missing the idea. The idea is absolutely not that everybody can mine to their heart's content, because we're not interested in ruining the commodity economy of the game. The 'system' long-term also has absolutely nothing to do with who got the first lodes, which is irrelevant other than the mineral rights, but regardless of how you slice it, 16 people will get those, and no matter how the system was configured, there would still be exactly 16 people getting those, at most.

Greys

Eh, guess its keeping the theme following the Bazaar.

All I can think of is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crosjxD4XaI

Xori

Sarapis said:

Some of you guys appear to be missing the idea. The idea is absolutely not that everybody can mine to their heart's content, because we're not interested in ruining the commodity economy of the game. The 'system' long-term also has absolutely nothing to do with who got the first lodes, which is irrelevant other than the mineral rights, but regardless of how you slice it, 16 people will get those, and no matter how the system was configured, there would still be exactly 16 people getting those, at most.

I thought you could conquer mines, or at least something like that were the ownership passes to that person who won a fight. If I'm right, I'm thinking (and what lots of others are thinking, I guess) that people with no mine but with a stronghold could train their troops like Knights train falcons. Drills. Even send them hunting the local creatures (though, that could be very disastrous.....) I think you get what I'm trying to say, heh. 

Just throwing in my two cents, don't have to listen. I barely know anything about these mines and legion stuff, other than what I've read here..... Hahaha.

Edit: And I'm nearly certain I'm just repeating stuff. I just can't see why this would be hard to do, but then again, I'm a crap coder and don't know much about running a game. At all.

Jacen

Sarapis said:

Some of you guys appear to be missing the idea. The idea is absolutely not that everybody can mine to their heart's content, because we're not interested in ruining the commodity economy of the game. The 'system' long-term also has absolutely nothing to do with who got the first lodes, which is irrelevant other than the mineral rights, but regardless of how you slice it, 16 people will get those, and no matter how the system was configured, there would still be exactly 16 people getting those, at most.

Does the system, in your opinion, encourage a dynamic shift of players involved, or feature a skill-based method to climb from the bottom to the top, or does it lend itself to a very static roster of players who are only unseated by going into dormancy or by their own omission?

Tael

Greys said:

Eh, guess its keeping the theme following the Bazaar.

All I can think of is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crosjxD4XaI

Not really.

The bazaar is a (series of) singular event(s) that people were unhappy about not being able to participate in at all (a problem exacerbated by the fact that the timing was announced and the wares were known last time and subsequently ameliorated by more restocking the time after that), not a permanent feature that people are unhappy about not being to participate in over the course of the first day or two.

There's a big difference between criticising something that's over that you didn't get to participate in and offering this sort of harsh, incredibly negative criticism of something that's still going on (and will be going on for the forseeable future), with unclear dynamics, that hasn't seen the adjustment everyone (including the admin) expected would be required like with any new, complex system, because you didn't get to participate in the first few days.

I do wish there were some way for people without mines to train an army up. Limiting the number of people who hold mines seems fine to me, but limiting the number of people who can contest them seems like a harder sell. Then again, it's been only a couple of days, so maybe I don't fully understand how the dynamics of all of this will actually play out - it seems ridiculously too early to be making the kind of sweeping criticism and condemnation that's all over this thread.

There might be useful constructive criticism to be offered here (though it seems really early for a lot of that), but most of the whining here has been less constructive and more petulant.

Greys

@Tael  I cannot help but be amused that likening it to the Bazaar = "harsh, incredibly negative criticism of something".

Tael

That was not so much you - plenty of people have posted even more sullen complaints.

Though let's not pretend you just said "this reminds me of the complaints about the bazaar". The phrasing was more than a little passive-aggressive (as is your little "I cannot help but be amused" here) and that video link wasn't exactly constructive.

I just feel bad for Sarapis and co. that after they made this neat, big thing for the game, a huge amount of the expressed opinions about it are phrased like this. It's fine if you think it needs improvement (though again it's hard to say how this long-term system will turn out so early), but the tone of so many posts has been so petulant.

Ahmet

Welp, I feel like I've seen enough of the system to form an opinion.

I'm honestly happy about the whole not being able to train soldiers from outside the actual mine, because then you'd have the asshats who'd do nothing but stockpile and train soldiers and must mill over everyone. Even being one of the first people with two large mines out, I've lost a large portion of my level 2 soldiers and had to replenish them. They're not as permanent as some people seem to think.

I'm honestly happy that there's a hard cap on the system, so the whole bloody economy isn't flooded with commodities. Props to @Sarapis and the team for brilliant foresight.

I feel like holding strongholds are kinda pointless. The amount of commodities you garner is negligible, the mines around you have total control of when that extra tax is deposited to the stronghold, and your soldiers don't level up while inside, so you're a relatively easy target that can't defend itself as well as mines can. Maybe would be better if the 5% tax is transferred when the mining actually happens, as opposed to when the mine owner takes the stuff out of storage?

Altogether it's a brilliant system, just needs a few little tweaks.

But that's just my two cents.

EDIT: Strongholds are also even more pointless cause their rankings aren't working.

EDIT EDIT: Perhaps a way to check the status of the surrounding area from strongholds? Who has mines of what, if there are any unmined nodes, that sort of thing?

Amranu

Do smaller squads level faster?

Sarapis

Tael said:

I do wish there were some way for people without mines to train an army up. Limiting the number of people who hold mines seems fine to me, but limiting the number of people who can contest them seems like a harder sell. 

Nope. Otherwise it's going to be about which people are good at <whatever it takes to level up legions>, whereas this system is designed to reward people who are good at mines. It's also self-limiting, so that someone can't just, for instance, buy squads and toss them endlessly at someone. You want to attack a mine, you have to spend a portion of your very limited squad resources to do so, and you can't just instantly replace them by buying (or whatever) them. You have to level them up by exposing yourself to risk (ie operating a mine), and thus providing a target for others to attack you just as you want to attack others.

Sarapis

Ahmet said:

I feel like holding strongholds are kinda pointless. The amount of commodities you garner is negligible, the mines around you have total control of when that extra tax is deposited to the stronghold, and your soldiers don't level up while inside, so you're a relatively easy target that can't defend itself as well as mines can. Maybe would be better if the 5% tax is transferred when the mining actually happens, as opposed to when the mine owner takes the stuff out of storage?

They're not. Or rather, if they are, then you will expect nobody to bother to attack a stronghold. But since there is a definable benefit to having one, there's a reason to attack one, which requires a decision by the stronghold owner as to how strongly to spend his limited supply of squads to defend it vs work/defend mines, or assault mines.

This system is all about the cumulative decisions you make in it. It won't ultimately reward most people who just want to run one mine to get some comms. It will sometimes, but that's not who it's there to serve for the most part. It's there for the entrepreneurial. It's essentially a resource allocation mini-game, but with a lot more subtleties than one might notice at first.

Sarapis

Amranu said:

Do smaller squads level faster?

No. Every time a raw comm is extracted from a mine, all squads in it get some experience, whose amount is altered by a couple factors including a modifier attached to the particular comm (so that comms that take longer to mine are worth more squad xp, effectively). We should probably put in a % to next level kind of thing for squads.

Amranu

Alright then, I need a button to delete useless squads. (Damaged beyond hope)

Sarapis

Hmm, good point. I can see deleting level 1 squads, but you'd be less likely to want to do it for level 2 +.

Inuad

Amranu said:

Alright then, I need a button to delete useless squads. (Damaged beyond hope)

Or squads that no longer serve a purpose, or which are no longer useful (if, for instance, people hired on too many miners or soldiers, or if they want to adjust their army composition). I did not fully appreciate the scope of things going into this, and am now stuck with 'useless' squads which are sitting idle, when I could have a better composition which is more fully used.

Sarapis

Yep, the ability to generically dismiss squads will go in in the next couple days.

Telendrieth

So far I'm loving the system. It's interesting, and I can see it playing out pretty well later on. As of right now, I can understand the whole upset some folks have since they weren't in realms when it started. But ultimately the pacing will shift and people will have turns. It's more just everyone wanting to dick around with it because it's new right now. (And you really don't want to mess up a system to let more people in right at the get go, if it's supposed to be gated.)

That being said.. I do have a few suggestions.
   I'd like to see maybe a survival or vision skill for prospect, with maybe just a small mana cost. Something similar to perceive, or simply use the Survey command.

   I also think it'd probably be healthy to move the iron cost to something a bit more along the lines of stone. It would give stone some more uses, while also cutting down on the already insane demand for iron. New weapon and armoursmithing is rather taxing on iron stores, as well as steel. It just makes more sense in my head to balance out the market slightly. But again, that's just my opinion.

   Potentially toning down the gold cost of claiming your storage. I say potentially just because as of right now the whole system is extremely gold heavy. The prospect change may be enough to make this not warranted.

   Add a health/mana check for entering a mine

   MINE DUES: a syntax to show your daily or monthly mine cost.

   And really my last suggestion is just making everything a bit more readable and visible to the player. Percent progress would go a long way in showing just what the eff is going on. Are your squads close to leveling, How about your next load of materials? You could add this into either it's own command of MINE STATUS Which would display the info of squads in the mine and time to next load, or separate the unit status into the command LEGION LIST and just show the percent until the next load when you SEE STORAGE. It'd look something like "You have 10,000,000 platinum, 10 Telendrium, 10 Melodar, and 10 Xerthyst. Your miners are currently 57% done hauling up the next load of materials.

All in all, a pretty amazing system, just needs a bit of fleshing out. Well done!

-Tel

Jonathin

I don't remember who said something about adding a health/mana requirement to enter a stronghold, but I would like to second, third, fourth and fifth the idea.

You point an imperious finger at <redacted>.

Horror overcomes <redacted>'s face as his body stiffens into paralysis.

<redacted> seems diminished.

Blood begins to run from the eyes and nose of <redacted>.

You observe a small amount of blood trickling from minor wounds to <redacted> body.

<redacted> eats a bloodroot leaf.

[Ate]: <redacted> - bloodroot paralysis

<redacted> enters his stronghold.

Tharvis

@Jonathin while they're adding that in, whoever abuses strongholds/mines in that way is breaking HELP HONOUR. Food for thought.

Ahmet

Jonathin said:

I don't remember who said something about adding a health/mana requirement to enter a stronghold, but I would like to second, third, fourth and fifth the idea.

You point an imperious finger at <redacted>.

Horror overcomes <redacted>'s face as his body stiffens into paralysis.

<redacted> seems diminished.

Blood begins to run from the eyes and nose of <redacted>.

You observe a small amount of blood trickling from minor wounds to <redacted> body.

<redacted> eats a bloodroot leaf.

[Ate]: <redacted> - bloodroot paralysis

<redacted> enters his stronghold.

Perhaps. Yes. And @Tharvis, don't think they ever confirmed they were adding it, it was just a suggestion. Could be wrong though.

Jukilian

Added reason to implement it, the way I see it.