Battlerage

Jarrod

Based on your prompt from the other page, I would suggest either removing "Level 104" entirely or changing it to "104" and adding in a number for your battlerage amount, color'd for ease of use.



This is mine. Obvious hmew, info, battlerage (241), denizen target health (91%), timestamp. Looking at the 241/91% is enough info for me to use battlerage effectively, after using it enough to get comfortable with it.


Edit: Vicious shrink your signature jfc.

Ahmet

Battlerage doesn't gen off pets, does it gen off guards/city denizens?

Tharvis

Ahmet said:

Battlerage doesn't gen off pets, does it gen off guards/city denizens?

I sincerely hope not

Draekar

I am still enjoying the battlerage system and especially the way it works with and benefits group hunting. I am looking forward to more group hunting and getting to better know some of the new players/alts in my orgs.

@Sarapis and @Tecton and all the team thanks a lot for the advances in the game. Since I have returned I am really enjoying Tradeskills, the Knight changes, some good RP events, and now this new battlerage system.

I have followed through with my "promise" and signed up for iron elite, I don't think I will regret that at all. With bashing being a thing again though I would like some customer support now. If one of you can look at my Blood Pendant "pendant183289". Clementius did a manual sale/upgrade for me back in the day and it has never had my mark on it "It bears the distinctive mark of Draekar." like all the other artefacts I have and I am not even sure if it works either. I loved Clementius so I never said anything, and now I just wear it as a keepsake of a job he half-assed on me.

I am considering upgrading it so it is probably time to let go of my memories and get it fixed so I don't have to see the following.

artefact pendant183289 value

9306h, 7113m, 42200e, 32300w excdbk 0.8-

A blood pendant currently costs 600 credits. It will trade in for 400 bound credits.

9306h, 7113m, 42200e, 32300w excdbk 0.8-
artefact pendant183289 upgrade
9306h, 7128m, 42200e, 32300w excdbk 0.8-(+15m, 0.2%) 

This is not an artefact you own.

Reif

I can understand where people are coming from when they say the coding part is overwhelming, and that it's hard to learn. I mean, I'm also 17 and my coding skills involve making triggers and basic functions, but still. It's a hard thing to learn.

On the other hand, though, for battlerage I haven't had to code at all. Aliases, really, if that counts. No triggers, no highlights, I just know when it's been awhile since I've THRASHED TARGET, and I know that if I Flagellate before Throatrip, it makes it more effective. It's not a terrible learning curve. Hunting individual things is slower, sure, but I'm still getting enough gold and experience to make it worthwhile. Even taking into account double experience.

I also really really really enjoy seeing group hunting become a thing now. I understand that some people don't necessarily WANT to hunt with other people, but I feel like that's the way it should be. I feel like hunting with someone should be beneficial, rather than going alone giving you the most payout for your time.

Lastly, I do think it's important for us all to understand that this is new, and change is weird for a lot of people. But it's important to remember that they ARE making more changes to stuff, and the problems we're seeing now aren't necessarily going to stay forever. I applaud you, Achaea for constantly taking steps to make the game better. You'll never please everyone, but mad props for trying. Thanks for being awesome.

Tael

Bluef said:

Tael said:

You can make a temptimer with an echo. You don't need to be a "coder" to do that. At all. You can literally copy+paste one line. Then just add that to the alias/keybind you use for the battlerage ability, or trigger it to the message you get when you hit with the battlerage ability. Here you go: tempTimer(16.00, [[echo("Corruption is off cooldown.")]])

You can ameliorate the spam problem by putting the rage number into your prompt and using CONFIG to turn off the rage lines. Both of these are very easy to do - HELP BATTLERAGE explains how to do them (if you just do CONFIG PROMPT ALL, rage will get added, and CONFIG RAGEGAINMSG OFF will get rid of the line). Once you do that, the spam will be exactly the same as it used to be

Thanks. The prompt thing won't work though. I'm using a custom prompt with SVO and my prompt is already huge. I can't add anything more to it. 

I think people believe I'm trolling them, but honestly this just reads like, "You can make a redzebra with a yellowelephant" to me. When I hear unfamiliar words my brain just can't process them. Sure, I know what a tempTimer is in theory, but how to set up something like this for every ability is overwhelming. I want to hunt and I can't effectively. That's frustrating. 

Shout out to Veldrin too, who was really nice and sent me an XML file, where I have to substitute my skills into it. Unfortunately, it just looks like gibberish to me. I'd not even know where to start with that. I'll ask Kaie if he can help me later today set some things up (hopefully he can be asked because he's not busy playing Cow Clicker). 

Thanks again!

I don't know how to put this diplomatically - I understand where you're coming from about some of your feelings on the changes, but posts like these are getting really silly.

No one is asking you to understand what any of the words mean. I literally gave you a line you could copy+paste. You don't have to have any idea how or why it works - you have to copy+paste that line into an alias/trigger. You don't have to be a coder. You don't have to understand any part of it.

To pretend like you can't handle literally copy/pasting a single line someone else wrote for you into the client is incredibly silly. I absolutely believe you that you don't understand what the line does or how it works or anything like that at all. That's fine. Despite your claims to the contrary, no one is requiring that you understand that. But you don't have to. I even pointed out in the post you're responding to that you don't have to. That you are pretending like this is still some insurmountable coding mountain can only come across as obstinate.

We are not talking about writing a system. "how to set up something like this for every ability" is not overwhelming - it is literally copy/pasting 5 lines and changing the numbers/mesages in exactly the way I laid out. When you say that copy-pasting five things, copy-pasting five numbers from AB files, and changing 5 messages is overwhelming, I don't think you can really complain too much about people saying things like "maybe cow-clicker is a better game for you". Was that comment rude? Sure. But when you continue to insist that you can't handle copy-pasting, then I'm not sure it was unwarranted.

And the fact that any time anyone points any of this out you immediately resort to insisting that there's some aura of hostility around you, that it doesn't have anything to do with what you say, but that everyone bears some sort of unearned grudge against you, you are not helping your case. Even if such an aura exists, and maybe it does, that doesn't mean that it is the sole cause of people's reactions to your posts.

And, to venture back a bit, Sarapis didn't paint you as a "negative person". He said that you commented, before you even saw the changes, that you didn't think you would like them, and then you posted that you didn't like them. That's just a fact. Those are posts you made. I can't imagine how you think it's unfair of him to point that out. (And, as an aside, you are, on the forums at least, pretty frequently a negative person. While in part it's probably due to the fact that some people really do seem not to like you, even accounting for that, I've definitely noticed that a higher ratio of your posts tend to be negative than most other posters. I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that, but I also don't think I'm just imagining it or that it's some manifestation of some sort of latent dislike I have for you or whatever.)

I think tempers have flared somewhat, and everyone's getting sort of unfortunately defensive here, but I really hope you might reflect on all this a little bit rather than just chalking it up to everyone hating you for no particular reason and going home. Some of the responses you receive, and their tone in particular, might be unearned. And I absolutely understand how frustrating that can be. But it would be sheer folly to think you've played no part in generating them.

As for SVO, I imagine vadi will put the ability to slap the rage number in there pretty soon - you can't really blame IRE here when they have a way to add it to the prompt already, but you're using a custom third-party prompt. Also, I don't really buy the "I can't add anything more to it." line - we're talking about adding literally two digits here. This feels very obstinate again.

Rekhyr

My newb experience and opinion

1. I'm hunting spamming sdk/ucp/ucp. if shields comes up rhk/ucp/ucp. It's kinda boring but I enjoy it since I can just go and relax doing so.
2. Alias the aboves.
3. Meh, I could just press one button instead. Button sending sdk/ucp/ucp if target shields change it to rhk/ucp/ucp.
4. I don't even have to press that button more than once per room.
5. God, I'm really just pressing one button per room, this is way to boring. switch to 2 buttons for sdk or rhk.
6. BATTLERAGE yeah so many new skills.
7. Alias battlerage abilities.
8. I can see a pattern here, I'm just letting my special button decide the best battlerage abilities and send it.
9. I'm spamming one button over and over again.
10. Switch back to aliases and buttons.
11. HAPPY HUNTING!

This long story just to tell: we finally have a PvE combat system that's more than HIT (maybe RUN) and repeat. And we are raging about this? How we came to this?

It's important to note that we have the LUCK of being part of these changes, and so every complaint about too much XP, not enough GOLD, enemy too HARD is just shit right now. Admins let the changes live and adjust it on the go, this is special. They are also trying to keep the XP and GOLD rewards the same as before, just with more interesting and less trivial fights. So focus onto that, not on 'omg I get 0.8 less experience over 2 hours of bashing Moghedu 2 days after the change hit'.

About the coding-limitation rants

- if you were able to set up a button to hit your default bash attack, then you will be able to do this for the new attacks as well.
- if you were able to set up a system to hunt for you, you will be able to code new battlerage abilities into it.

There is no increased/forced coding experience here. It's just the same.
If you are mad because the system someone else wrote is not working and you can't edit yourself, that's because YOU lack the coding abilities, not because the new bashing is shit. Just wait for an update by someone else and be done with it, you don't have to learn anything more don't worry. You will be back at spamming one button eventually, if you wish so.

PERSONAL RANT OVER

Personally, with these changes I dropped the whole automation and just stick to buttons/keys/aliases, much like I would do in most MMORPGs around, with real time decision making, and it feels so GOOD. I can't clear as much as I was able to prechange but that's great since I get the same rewards as if I cleared it. On top of that I won't risk my life on some warthog because I fell asleep while hunting.

Sorry for the long post but some posts here really got my nerves. And sorry for the bad english, I do what I can.

SHORT VERSION: I THINK it's too soon to say anything but 'I like/ don't like the new system'. Feedbacks like 'it's shit I want candies' won't help anyone. I love the new changes and I think this is the right direction, with some adjustments.

Tecton

Tael said:

1. It would be really nice if, in the future, the HTML5 client stuff were ready when these sorts of things went in. I feel like that would really have helped alleviate some of these problems. Adding a new system and saying "Don't worry non-coders, we'll add a UI that makes it easier for you too. Eventually." is better than nothing, but it's not hard to see how some people are going to be pretty dissatisfied in the interim.
2. Lack of cooldown messages on the initial release was a real oversight.
3. Assuming the new battlerage shieldbreaks cost rage to use, are existing shieldbreaks going to become adventurer-only? I know people (particularly bards) would be unhappy to see that happen, but it seems like the obvious choice - otherwise the divide between classes with and without shieldbreaks is going to get even larger, with bards, for instance, being able to shieldbreak without losing any time and without having to spend rage on it like other classes (rage that they can then spend on doing more damage).

1) It was the intention to have it integrated at launch, unfortunately, there were some last minute delays which prevented this from happening. The core of the client is shared across all of our games, so everyone needs to support all of the functionality before we can roll out a new version.

2) Yep! With more QA time, we probably would have picked this up, that's on us!

3) They'll cost rage, no changes to the classes that have an existing method to break shields at this time.

Bluef

Tael said:

Thanks. The prompt thing won't work though. I'm using a custom prompt with SVO and my prompt is already huge. I can't add anything more to it. 

I think people believe I'm trolling them, but honestly this just reads like, "You can make a redzebra with a yellowelephant" to me. When I hear unfamiliar words my brain just can't process them. Sure, I know what a tempTimer is in theory, but how to set up something like this for every ability is overwhelming. I want to hunt and I can't effectively. That's frustrating. 

Shout out to Veldrin too, who was really nice and sent me an XML file, where I have to substitute my skills into it. Unfortunately, it just looks like gibberish to me. I'd not even know where to start with that. I'll ask Kaie if he can help me later today set some things up (hopefully he can be asked because he's not busy playing Cow Clicker). 

Thanks again!

I don't know how to put this diplomatically - I understand where you're coming from about some of your feelings on the changes, but posts like these are getting really silly.

No one is asking you to understand what any of the words mean. I literally gave you a line you could copy+paste. You don't have to have any idea how or why it works - you have to copy+paste that line into an alias/trigger. You don't have to be a coder. You don't have to understand any part of it.

To pretend like you can't handle literally copy/pasting a single line someone else wrote for you into the client is incredibly silly. I absolutely believe you that you don't understand what the line does or how it works or anything like that at all. That's fine. Despite your claims to the contrary, no one is requiring that you understand that. But you don't have to. I even pointed out in the post you're responding to that you don't have to. That you are pretending like this is still some insurmountable coding mountain can only come across as obstinate.

We are not talking about writing a system. "how to set up something like this for every ability" is not overwhelming - it is literally copy/pasting 5 lines and changing the numbers/mesages in exactly the way I laid out. When you say that copy-pasting five things, copy-pasting five numbers from AB files, and changing 5 messages is overwhelming, I don't think you can really complain too much about people saying things like "maybe cow-clicker is a better game for you". Was that comment rude? Sure. But when you continue to insist that you can't handle copy-pasting, then I'm not sure it was unwarranted.

And the fact that any time anyone points any of this out you immediately resort to insisting that there's some aura of hostility around you, that it doesn't have anything to do with what you say, but that everyone bears some sort of unearned grudge against you, you are not helping your case. Even if such an aura exists, and maybe it does, that doesn't mean that it is the sole cause of people's reactions to your posts.

And, to venture back a bit, Sarapis didn't paint you as a "negative person". He said that you commented, before you even saw the changes, that you didn't think you would like them, and then you posted that you didn't like them. That's just a fact. Those are posts you made. I can't imagine how you think it's unfair of him to point that out. (And, as an aside, you are, on the forums at least, pretty frequently a negative person. While in part it's probably due to the fact that some people really do seem not to like you, even accounting for that, I've definitely noticed that a higher ratio of your posts tend to be negative than most other posters. I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that, but I also don't think I'm just imagining it or that it's some manifestation of some sort of latent dislike I have for you or whatever.)

I think tempers have flared somewhat, and everyone's getting sort of unfortunately defensive here, but I really hope you might reflect on all this a little bit rather than just chalking it up to everyone hating you for no particular reason and going home. Some of the responses you receive, and their tone in particular, might be unearned. And I absolutely understand how frustrating that can be. But it would be sheer folly to think you've played no part in generating them.

As for SVO, I imagine vadi will put the ability to slap the rage number in there pretty soon - you can't really blame IRE here when they have a way to add it to the prompt already, but you're using a custom third-party prompt. Also, I don't really buy the "I can't add anything more to it." line - we're talking about adding literally two digits here. This feels very obstinate again.

I don't want to fill up this thread with more of he said/she said. But you're wrong. Sarapis directly called me a negative person, stating that I was "consistently, predictably negative." That's a huge generalization and an untrue characterization just as your post is.

If I don't feel the need to pile on the bandwagon with everyone else, that doesn't make me negative. The way a post I write is received is negative, not the way it's put out there. Believe me, if I wanted to go negative, I could and you'd not be able to construe it as anything else. 

I never played a victim card crying that everyone hates me. Someone in a position of authority decided to ridicule me. I found that an offensive abuse of his power. I stated such. That's that. 

I'm also not pretending. I haven't PvPed since 2012. I can't remember the last time I created a trigger or alias on my own. Almost every trigger I have was the result of a script I imported or something someone else wrote. I'm sorry if that offends your sensibility or anyone else's of what it means to play Achaea. I don't enjoy that side of the game and never have. 

I didn't set up anything for Spiritlore when it came out either, by the way; I had to have someone else do it because I needed some kind of way to send one alias and have Mudlet figure out if it should be a swiftcurse or curse (thus negating the need for three separate sets of shaman aliases). That's apples and oranges, but it should demonstrate that I have zero Mudlet or lua knowledge. I think the last time I wrote a tempTimer was 2010 and looking at them now I have no idea how I got them to work. They look like a hot mess. 

I think I also know my own prompt and what can or cannot be added to it. Jarrod's idea is an okay solution but I'd have to see it to know if it'd work visually. Again, I'm not being obstinate. If anything, your incredulity that I have such a lengthy prompt that if I add one more item to it will wrap around (which it will) is the only thing unnecessarily unyielding here, except for maybe my disbelief at the "newbs" who are posting all these high praises.

I think many of you don't realize how difficult it is for someone who is pretty damned intelligent to ask for help when they don't know how to do something. I'll leave it at that. Thank you to those people who offered constructive and helpful feedback beyond trying to further stir the pot. I'm going back into forum retirement now. Nothing has changed here; this place is still a cesspool of jerks who are given free reign to ensure that no one else speaks out against the magnificent world we pretend to live in, and that defense counts more than anything else you do IC. 

Katzchen

How do you track denizen health? (On your prompt)

Reif

Katzchen said:

How do you track denizen health?

Probe, or at least that's what I do. There might be a more efficient way to do it.

Bluef

Katzchen said:

How do you track denizen health? (On your prompt)

I use @gametargethp

Ahmet

Reif said:

Katzchen said:

How do you track denizen health?

Probe, or at least that's what I do. There might be a more efficient way to do it.

#gmcp

Katzchen

Reif said:

Katzchen said:

How do you track denizen health?

Probe, or at least that's what I do. There might be a more efficient way to do it.

Yeah, that's not going to work with this much spam.

Jules

I really am hearing a different story in game, and not just from the very occasional person.  I don't know why Achaea forumers tend to be more ra-ra about things than the other IRE games (where people seem to be more willing to be pretty clear about it when they don't like something), but, while the last few pages sort of became focused on one person not liking the changes, as if she were part of a tiny minority that is less enthused, the chatter in game really does include a lot of people whose reaction is "hrm, bashing really might actually be worse now", and actually, even this thread isn't just one person not liking the changes.  Even some people who do tend to be less likely to criticize have chimed in saying they're not very happy with it.  I mean, the new system kinks are one thing, and are expected, but I do hope they're taking the other feedback into account, and to some degree, it looks like they are, so I am sort of hopeful, but I guess we'll see.  

Severina

Katzchen said:

Reif said:

Katzchen said:

How do you track denizen health?

Probe, or at least that's what I do. There might be a more efficient way to do it.

Yeah, that's not going to work with this much spam.

It's available via probe, gmcp, and through Achaea's custom prompt (check the bottom half of HELP PROMPT).

Sena

You can also see their health with consider, which is considerably shorter than probe.

I do it as part of my bashing alias (and gag the first line) until I get around to changing my prompt to include it.

Katzchen

I love the flavour of the hunting and the buff to group hunting, but I'm seriously underwhelmed by solo hunting now. Individual mobs gold/xp might have been adjusted for their health, but I don't think they've accounted for the fact that most people will have to hunt in lower areas now, and some of those are still pretty awful gold/xp, even with the change.

So yeah, can't decide if it's better or worse. Maybe solo hunting going the way of the dodo in Achaea wouldn't be -that- terrible a thing? In other ways, yeah, yeah it would.  

Klendathu

I've got the core coding of my rage tracker done now, image above of it working as a gold dragon with 4 of the five possible abilities going, with sufficient rage for Overwhelm. I'm now on the slog of capturing triggers for every class, they just need to be added in and it'll be ready to release. Feel free to chime in with the lines for any class, both successful and failed (for those which require afflictions to give full effect) via PM.

I'd prefer the raw line rather than the regex match if possible

Jarrod

Katzchen said:

How do you track denizen health? (On your prompt)

Probe/consider

SVO custom prompt tag: @gametargethp

Default  IRE Prompt option you can turn on.

Using the variable -- svo.cpp.compute_gametargethp() -- in your own thing.

Severina

Katzchen said:

I love the flavour of the hunting and the buff to group hunting, but I'm seriously underwhelmed by solo hunting now. Individual mobs gold/xp might have been adjusted for their health, but I don't think they've accounted for the fact that most people will have to hunt in lower areas now, and some of those are still pretty awful gold/xp, even with the change.

So yeah, can't decide if it's better or worse. Maybe solo hunting going the way of the dodo in Achaea wouldn't be -that- terrible a thing? In other ways, yeah, yeah it would.  

It'll be easier to judge after the event, as things are currently skewed both by the double experience and the fact that a lot of hunters are otherwise tied up dealing with the event denizens.

My experience so far is that I definitely have to avoid some areas (or specific denizens and choke points within areas) and bash 'easier' things than what I hunted regularly pre-battlerage. Essentially I'm being forced to heed the long-standing advice/wisdom of only bashing things that I can fully tank without having to hit-and-run or heal up between kills.

The flip side to this is that the experience and gold gain thus far has been tremendous as I do not have to waste nearly as much time trying to nail down an available place to hunt. Availability of denizens in general has been amazing, even to the point of being able to share areas with other hunters because neither they nor I can tear through denizens fast enough to 'own' it. It's been a long, steady stream of denizens to kill and that alone has been a boon to efficiency with next to no effort on my part.

I think all of these points have already been experienced and expressed by others in the thread, but there's another anecdote to add to the pile. This has all been from the point of view of only solo hunting since the release of the event and battlerage changes.

Kross

Katzchen said:

I love the flavour of the hunting and the buff to group hunting, but I'm seriously underwhelmed by solo hunting now. Individual mobs gold/xp might have been adjusted for their health, but I don't think they've accounted for the fact that most people will have to hunt in lower areas now, and some of those are still pretty awful gold/xp, even with the change.

So yeah, can't decide if it's better or worse. Maybe solo hunting going the way of the dodo in Achaea wouldn't be -that- terrible a thing? In other ways, yeah, yeah it would.  

CONSIDER <target> also works. But if you're using svo, there's already a prompt tag that he has built in, using @gametargethp (I think?)

I think, though, that you have to use the settarget <target> command (which you can easily throw into your normal targeting alias).

I personally use in-game aliasing -

setalias classalias %1/%2/%3/%4/%5/%6/%7

alias(mudlet) - ^<bashing macro>$ (I use 'K')

send("classalias {stand}{unwield left}{unwield right}{combo "..target.." sdk ucp ucp}{consider "..target.."}")

then I highlight the consider line, gag the "He does not even consider your presence a threat"-type lines, and highlight the "His current health stands at 40%" in cyan, with the number in red. It makes for a block of text like this:

You sidekick the thing.

You connect!

You uppercut the thing.

You connect!

You have scored a WORLD-SHATTERING CRITICAL HIT ON HIS MOM!!!

You uppercut the thing.

You connect!

His current health stands at 40%.

--------------------------------

The lines are all wrong, but that's about the gist of it. It's nifty and useful cause every time I send my bashing combo, I get his health reported on screen. Secondly, like I said, if you're using svo, just use the @gametargethp prompttag in your custom prompt. VCONFIG2 (I think?) and click VIEW on the line where it says you're using a custom prompt. You can also google SVO DOCS to get the list of available prompt tags, or make your own!!!

Edit: Quoted the wrong post you made, but you'll get it regardless

Katzchen

Thanks.

Makaela

Just curious.. if I wanted to kill a few of the undead solo.. (ones in sea lion cove as I assume the lvl 90 area is hard for me and that id get bored in the lower level area) is it 

1) is it reasonbly possible assuming i avoid rooms with groups of them?

2) is it more efficient then hunting in a group for esteem.

Been a total of 5 hours combined and i only killed 70 in groups...

Atalkez

You can kill more solo if you avoid the stacks. But you need to find the spawn rooms and stay away so you don't get stacked in the middle of hitting 1.

Tharvis

Makaela said:

Just curious.. if I wanted to kill a few of the undead solo.. (ones in sea lion cove as I assume the lvl 90 area is hard for me and that id get bored in the lower level area) is it 

1) is it reasonbly possible assuming i avoid rooms with groups of them?

2) is it more efficient then hunting in a group for esteem.

Been a total of 5 hours combined and i only killed 70 in groups...

you wouldn't be able to enter Thraasi's area or Tasur'ke's area anyway.
1) You can probably easily take single rooms or double rooms
2) hunting in groups is more efficient (moderately sized, anything bigger than five and it becomes a race and not efficient anymore)

Makaela

@Atalkez and @Tharvis Thank you both for the info. I will just have to find spawn rooms by trial and error XD.  

If I find a small enough group I might join one ... I just have no utility rage abilities that add to a group 3 damages one rquires reckless/fear and a self shield. Once I hit 80 i get a defend like ability but I am told it is bugged some how.

Sena

At level 72, it will be tough. You might have trouble if there are even 2 in a room, and actually searching through the area for lone undead will be too dangerous, so you'll have to wait at the entrance and wait for one to wander into that single room (unless there's a group keeping the area fairly cleared out and they won't steal kills from you). Even if you do find one alone, there's a high chance more will wander in before you kill it.

If you can fly, that would help a lot, since you could search the area safely and have a good escape method.

Skye

Alaskar said:

I keep getting crits on my stupid windlash thing, lol. So the CRUSHING CRITICAL I got is like...16 damage, lol. It wasn't even 1% of health. Still, looks cool getting all those crits.

I got an APC off one of those. Thing didn't die most humiliating APC ever

Makaela

@Sena makes me feel less dumb for collaring my Gargoyle now!  I just want to get the moth and 500 esteem mount before event ends >.>.  Maybe the lights.. so long as they can be made non decay.