Tradeskill split

Melodie

Addama said:

I agree with @Blujixapug, for the sake of the in-game economy, this should have been the case the whole time.  I still think that those who already had the trade skills transed should keep those skills if they want them, though.

The problem here is that too many people having all of this basically negates the purpose of this change. Too many people will be self-sufficient and the whole idea of it will be lost. It requires a bit of a restart button to actually affect this and to bring about what Bluji was talking about.

Xith

A number of people already have 4 or 5 of them, so it's easiest for admin to reset everybody's instead of selectively keeping and modifying the lessons required to complete them, permits to unlock them, etc.

The way it works is: you're refunded all your tailoring lessons. If you want tailoring, you go learn the lessons again. And learning is much faster than it used to be. Really not a big deal. Just learn on a loop while you design some new panties, problem solved.

Blujixapug

Synbios said:

(at)Blujixapug‌ : I keep forgetting: when Vernal ascendancy is taken from someone by the city, don't they devolve into a kind of lesser ascendant(basically turbo-mega-dragon devolves down to mega-dragon)?

They become a Vernal Demigod, which is slightly cooler than a regular Demigod (Demigod being their level 100 race), but much less cool than a Vernal Ascendant.

Sarapis

Let me jump in here, briefly:

• We're not looking to make anyone lose value in their characters, but it may be that some people don't keep all the same skills they have now. It's a big change. It's going to upset some people, and we're definitely sorry about that. We'll find a way to make it right.
  
  
• None of these changes are specifically designed to drive revenue. They are, however, designed to kind of tax you if you want to opt out of the inter-player economy by being self-sufficient. I think that's reasonable. It's definitely possible that we've gotten the details of the system wrong though, and we'll be looking at them further. Remember, please, that nothing has actually happened yet and that the reason we released this ahead of time was to get feedback that we can act on before we do release the changes. But, these changes have all been designed with the idea of allowing the playerbase in general greater character customization (by removing tradeskills from class affiliation) and also making sure that we don't ruin the need for inter-player trade.
  
  
• There are a lot of details here that make the difference, and we'll be forming a final plan based in part on the feedback from this thread. Thanks!

Amarillys

Can I suggest a way to designate the designer on a sketch before submitting it? That way if, say, a Virtuosi novice designs something, I can set them as the designer, submit it to them, and transfer it to them? They still wouldn't be able to make it, but they could still design things and own them and I don't think it takes away from the inter-player economy at all, just adding a little extra ownership for someone's piece.

Bluef

Random thought: I'm hoping TRADEWHO will be up and running in place of CRAFTERWHO when this all goes in, so it's a bit easier to locate people who took skills you did not. 

Also - Will the trade skills still appear in someone's HONOURS the way they do now?

Sarapis

Good questions, Bluef. No idea on either yet, though those seem like reasonable ideas.

Kenway

Kendrick said:

Hi, I hate to interrupt your conversation but there is one minor thing in regards to Knights, here, @Tecton: I cannot currently equip two Baldrics, meaning I cannot sheathe both a two-handed weapon and a bow at the same time, any chance we can get that fixed?

You can WEAR BOW. No need for two baldrics. Though i suppose for those who will be swapping between warhammer and bastardsword mid fight that still might be a nice change

Kendrick

You have to unwield bow/wear bow to put it away, and remove bow/wield bow to wield it in that case, which is obnoxious to have to do instead of draw/sheathe. That's why I was hoping for multiple containers.

Nim

Kendrick said:

You have to unwield bow/wear bow to put it away, and remove bow/wield bow to wield it in that case, which is obnoxious to have to do instead of draw/sheathe. That's why I was hoping for multiple containers.

Not anything against multiple baldrics, but it sounds like another solution might just be to let you wield worn bows directly, or wear wielded bows directly.

Kendrick

Also viable, but the multiple baldrics also helps with Kenway's above scenario of wielding both warhammer and bastard, to swap more smoothly between them.

Aegoth

Xith said:

Shirszae said:

More importantly, can we make two-handed swords fit into scabbards? I really,really hate the idea of baldrics. It just does not have the same ring as scabbard for me.  

  

Lots of stuff to consider in Knights/weapons.
Also please move Behead out of public weaponry. I die a little every time I see a Magi - or worse, jester - use it.

No. Go back to your hole in Moghedu

Laera

So, I read the Announce news for this, and came here. I've been reading through, but I'm not sure it was mentioned. I'm probably being ridiculous, but do Marques count as a trade skill like cooking, jewellery, tailoring, etc? Also, making sure I have this right, if this goes through, we'll be handed back the lessons we spent on the licensed skills and trade skills, and if we bought the license, handed a token to regain it. And possibly getting the licensed skill free(instead of spending an extra 50 cr on buying a slot)? Sorry if all this has been answered and I didn't see it. I just want to make sure I'm understanding what might be happening correctly.

Tael

To offer another perspective on the changes, I have all of the tradeskills and I'm very happy to see these changes, even if it means I end up losing access to several of the tradeskills. Far too many people are far too self-sufficient in this game. I'm really looking forward to what this does to the economy.

And it's not like they're just being taken away - we're getting lessons back, and with multiclass on the way, offering something to spend them on.

The posts here by people who have all the trade skills transed and are complaining about what it will cost to have their character the way they like them make me sad. Of course many people want to be totally self-sufficient - that makes perfect sense. That's the same reason I transed all those skills too.

But that desire for self-sufficiency should not be indulged. The game design should discourage it for the same reason it discourages people winning by stacking statistics, even if you want your character to be so strong that they can kill with only a few basic attacks. Self-sufficiency is bad for the game - it's bad for creating an interesting economy and it's bad for player interaction.

Seftin

Thanks for answering the questions, was a bit wound up about it - I definitely agree that other classes have these buffs available so I guess I was a bit tunnel-visioned and didn't look at it from an outside perspective.

My question below:

What is going to happen with Handaxes for sentinels?

At current anything slower than a 242 is pretty much useless from a combat perspective for a large amount of their current tactics, will the new skillset offset this somehow?

Rispok

Seftin said:

Thanks for answering the questions, was a bit wound up about it - I definitely agree that other classes have these buffs available so I guess I was a bit tunnel-visioned and didn't look at it from an outside perspective.

My question below:

What is going to happen with Handaxes for sentinels?

At current anything slower than a 242 is pretty much useless from a combat perspective for a large amount of their current tactics, will the new skillset offset this somehow?

I can say confidently with no inside information, yes.

Kyrra

The only thing that I'm really curious to know is that, if I don't want to pick up tailoring and jewellery crafting again, would it be possible for those licences to be refunded for the 200cr that I paid for them? Like be able to trade in the tokens/permits that we receive back. They aren't really skills that I used a whole lot in comparison to some people and I'd prefer to put those credits toward something else that would benefit the skills that I do want to get.

Sable

Just a simple comment. While I feel for the people who will be needing to invest to keep their character the way they like them, I'm a bit excited for these changes. In all honesty, I see the way they're going into effect as similar to my recent dealings with my ISP. 

I was paying for a tier below top internet in my area when my ISP upgraded their top tier and bunked the former top down. So, I got the upgraded option for free, but if I want even better, I still had to pay. I opted for it and got a reduced price for a year before they gave me the full price billing. I can go back down a peg if I want to keep paying the same, or I can pay the higher price to keep what I have. 

Not quite the same, but quite similar in my mind. That aside, keep up the good work and awesomeness, everyone. Even if I'm not always happy with your changes and tweaks, you seem to always be working on some way to make it better overall.

Antonius

Seftin said:

Thanks for answering the questions, was a bit wound up about it - I definitely agree that other classes have these buffs available so I guess I was a bit tunnel-visioned and didn't look at it from an outside perspective.

My question below:

What is going to happen with Handaxes for sentinels?

At current anything slower than a 242 is pretty much useless from a combat perspective for a large amount of their current tactics, will the new skillset offset this somehow?

Forged handaxes should end up with standard stats, just like all other weapons, and Sentinel will be balanced around whatever those stats end up being. Artefact handaxes will then have better stats than forged, so they'll always be a better option. No work has been done on Sentinel that I'm aware of, though.

@Kyrra: Tecton said the token you get in exchange for them would be able to be traded in, but I don't think a price has been given. Hopefully it will be the full 200 credits.

@Trey: If you're worried about getting a non-decay fullplate after the changes, just go ahead and customise one of your suits - since they'll all end up with the same stats it really doesn't matter what you end up with. You have about a week to write the description and get the whole process finished, that should probably be enough time.

@Tecton: Is Chivalry still going to have the bonuses to accuracy/damage/speed that it currently does, then? I know you said the Weaponry bonuses would be staying.

Will it be possible to do a 2:1 trade on artefact weaponry? I have two level two broadswords, would I be able to trade those for a single level three weapon? Not sure what I'll end up doing yet, but that may be something I want to consider. Also, what about refunds for customisations on artefact weapons? I know it's only 50 credits per, but that adds up when you have several of them.

Texel

Kendrick said:

Hi, I hate to interrupt your conversation but there is one minor thing in regards to Knights, here, @Tecton: I cannot currently equip two Baldrics, meaning I cannot sheathe both a two-handed weapon and a bow at the same time, any chance we can get that fixed?

You can just wear a bow though. 

Antonius

Texel said:

Kendrick said:

Hi, I hate to interrupt your conversation but there is one minor thing in regards to Knights, here, @Tecton: I cannot currently equip two Baldrics, meaning I cannot sheathe both a two-handed weapon and a bow at the same time, any chance we can get that fixed?

You can just wear a bow though. 

This was already covered. It introduces an additional command needed to get from wielding to stored, since you have to UNWIELD/WEAR and REMOVE/WIELD if you choose to wear it. Plus, to be honest, wearing it just doesn't look anywhere near as cool. I can wear (at least) four scabbards, a baldric and a backstrap; I don't see any reason why two baldrics should be somehow out of the question.

That said, with the recent changes to WIELD you're probably better off just totally foregoing containers complete. I doubt there will be any changes to SHEATHE/DRAW etc. in the near future that will make them as easy to use.

Antonius

@Tecton: How exactly is gaining weapon proficiencies going to work with Weaponmastery specs? I can think of three potential possibilities:
1. You don't gain anything when picking a spec, have to pay 100 lessons per proficiency.
2. You can choose a single proficiency for a weapon available for use with your spec; e.g. you choose the Dual cutting spec, you can pick between the scimitar or battleaxe proficiencies.
3. You automatically gain all of the necessary proficiencies when choosing a spec; e.g. you choose the Dual cutting spec, you gain both scimitar and battleaxe proficiencies.

What exactly is going to be done for newbies/non-Trans Knights? Their bashing attack will be gained through Weaponmastery, but it seems like they'll still need to invest in Chivalry to gain the accuracy/damage/speed bonuses associated with it? (I guess this depends on the answer to my earlier question about that.) Seems like those bonuses should really be moved over to Weaponmastery, since it's a bit unintuitive to gain an ability in one skill, but have its effectiveness boosted by lessons invested in another.

Along those lines, any plans to provide high to-hit weaponry for those individuals? Dual cutting already has shortswords with very high to-hit to alleviate the accuracy issues, but there's nothing similar for any of the others. To remove the need for adding more weapon types, perhaps just add special versions of those weapons for sale at the shop in Delos, with much higher than forged to-hit but reduced damage and speed.

Ahmet

@Tecton Since metallurgy is being removed from alchemy, does that mean that we can finally be free of the metal requirements for channeling? So damn annoying to find you've run out of metals and can't channel about.

Ahmet

ALSO, for people who have traits set for gathering skills and such, will we be able to reset our traits (or replace those specific ones)?

Tharvis

Ahmet said:

ALSO, for people who have traits set for gathering skills and such, will we be able to reset our traits (or replace those specific ones)?

I think a free trait reset for everyone post-this change would be a good idea

Lisbethae

Kyrra said:

The only thing that I'm really curious to know is that, if I don't want to pick up tailoring and jewellery crafting again, would it be possible for those licences to be refunded for the 200cr that I paid for them? Like be able to trade in the tokens/permits that we receive back. They aren't really skills that I used a whole lot in comparison to some people and I'd prefer to put those credits toward something else that would benefit the skills that I do want to get.

I think there will be a LOT fewer jewellers and tailors and cooks, because it really doesn't pay.

The unfortunate part is that it is these tradeskills that add so much flavor to the game.

I am also hearing from forgers who forged because it was a game of chance with a high reward at the end if you did well. That's going away and I think that striving for excellence (in a non-combat way) is not a valuable thing to save in the game.

Azor

I think it's worth the escalating lesson cost to be able to learn tradeskills that were formerly class-exclusive, and throwing in inkmilling and gathering with that is fine too. The only thing that bums me out a bit is having it be a tradeoff with the writing-based skills. 

Ruth

I always believe I undercharge on tailoring and cooking stuff. I sell ~350gp on average for common stuff so that's not earning me money but I like the fact that I can design and sew my own clothes for any occasion (which, in my case, are many), and also cook food to indulge in Ruth's favourite past time: eating!

Anyone who desire to take back their craft skills may not necessarily want to be self-sufficient again; they may actually just want to maintain or preserve their line of roleplay.

Nellaundra

I'd very much prefer being able to trade in my tailoring token for credits over getting a new crafting profession.

Kyrra

Lisbethae said:

Kyrra said:

The only thing that I'm really curious to know is that, if I don't want to pick up tailoring and jewellery crafting again, would it be possible for those licences to be refunded for the 200cr that I paid for them? Like be able to trade in the tokens/permits that we receive back. They aren't really skills that I used a whole lot in comparison to some people and I'd prefer to put those credits toward something else that would benefit the skills that I do want to get.

I think there will be a LOT fewer jewellers and tailors and cooks, because it really doesn't pay.

The unfortunate part is that it is these tradeskills that add so much flavor to the game.

Eh, I have a lot more fun making food which is why I'm keeping Cooking. I have zero skill when it comes to designing clothing and I've always asked other people for help with my very few clothing designs. And my skills for jewellery aren't that great when I consider what people like Amunet produce.

It's never been a question of profit for me, but mostly being self-sufficient. I liked being able to craft off the public NDS designs but I'm not that great at designing. And now it's an opportunity to give up the skills gracefully and just focus on the things that I'm better at. I traded in my hammer, extra tomes, ink mill, and cleaver months ago so I'd already made up my mind and gone ahead with it.

Is it necessarily a bad thing to have fewer people around with those trade skills if it'll allow a focus on those people who love to design and craft, and like to work with other players? Those that are dedicated and keen will make the effort, those that are not will likely not. Sometimes you have to weed the garden so the rest of the flowers can grow. Or something.