Tradeskill split

Mel

Tecton said:

Khaibit said:

Tecton said:

Ahmet said:

Are we losing Philosopher's Stone?

The actual ability, yes (for now).

We may tie that RP back into the rest of the Alchemy skillset in the future though!

The stone is a massive part of the roleplay for Alchemists... lots of people have put a lot of work into it from an rp perspective and you're just going to remove it? That's kind of worse than forcing us to learn 2 more skills to be the same as we currently are, and making our artifacts worthless unless we bought them recently

Right, we certainly don't want to completely do away with the RP aspects - leave it with me, we'll see if we can massage it in sooner rather than later. It will lose its mechanical benefits though!

what mechanical benefits, can you specify?

Sena

Mel said:

Tecton said:

Right, we certainly don't want to completely do away with the RP aspects - leave it with me, we'll see if we can massage it in sooner rather than later. It will lose its mechanical benefits though!

what mechanical benefits, can you specify?

Improved synthesis/refilling and faster potash balance.

Lisbethae

@tecton, @Sarapis‌

You know, I love Achaea. I really do, I grin like a mad woman everyday as I walk through AMAZING scenery and figure out another quest or another quandary.

I wouldn't have spent far too much money on it if I didn't love it. I wouldn't be signed up for Elite, if I didn't. I wouldn't buy hundreds of dollars in globes if I didn't. And I can probably swing the cost of relearning it, but in the end, I would feel pretty sad and let down.

I guess wouldn't mind it so much, if these changes cost me under $100 to be the same after, but it really will be impossible for a large number of people to pay what is now a $300 or more dollar penalty for staying in the game they love at the skill level they were.

I am hoping and ultimately trusting in the Administration to make it possible to keep Achaea affordable for us to remain active and loyal to the game where we spend so much of our spare time.

Achaea makes lives of people who must stay at home - people who are ill, who have small children, who are disabled, who are isolated, who have a hard time connecting in real life - livable, basically. It is a place to go and find community and activity and a sense of accomplishment. I remember talking to a paraplegic who said to me, "I never thought I'd walk again, and in Achaea I'm fighting dragons and WINNING!" Someone else with several small children told me, "Trust me, after washing out the 10th diaper, a discussion about design with adults is amazing." I don't want to lose people who are struggling to make ends meet, who can't afford to play any other online game due to the cost.

So, thank you, Achaea, for all that you are. I'm just here, trying like heck to be optimistic about what you will be and waiting for the results of your discussions. 

I know all this feedback makes it more complicated. Thank you for taking the time to respond and actually change things based on what we are saying. We appreciate it.

Terrana

Not to be all, I believe the term is Me, me, me... but what about Sylvans? Everything forestal related seems a little glossed over to me. Without being too much of a bother (My rant is out of my system... but I still mean every word) can someone tell me what's going to happen with the Sylvans?

Addama

Terrana said:

Not to be all, I believe the term is Me, me, me... but what about Sylvans? Everything forestal related seems a little glossed over to me. Without being too much of a bother (My rant is out of my system... but I still mean every word) can someone tell me what's going to happen with the Sylvans?

You're losing (kind of) Concoctions and gaining a combat-relevant third skillset eventually.  Not this week, probably not even this month.  So you don't need to get too worried about it yet.

Addama

Daeir said:

Lisbethae said:

Kyrra said:

The only thing that I'm really curious to know is that, if I don't want to pick up tailoring and jewellery crafting again, would it be possible for those licences to be refunded for the 200cr that I paid for them? Like be able to trade in the tokens/permits that we receive back. They aren't really skills that I used a whole lot in comparison to some people and I'd prefer to put those credits toward something else that would benefit the skills that I do want to get.

I think there will be a LOT fewer jewellers and tailors and cooks, because it really doesn't pay.

The unfortunate part is that it is these tradeskills that add so much flavor to the game.

I am also hearing from forgers who forged because it was a game of chance with a high reward at the end if you did well. That's going away and I think that striving for excellence (in a non-combat way) is not a valuable thing to save in the game.

Striving for excellence is fun when said excellence comes from something other than the willingness to sit in one room for hours on end watching your autoforger do its work and hope you get a good bit of gear out of the end of it.

That may float some people's boats, but it isn't a good mechanic. At all.

As a Forger (at one point with a Hammer) I can safely say that Daeir is right, there's nothing interesting about the old Forging mechanics and virtually no reward.  It's gambling, pure and simple.

Theris

Addama said:

Terrana said:

Not to be all, I believe the term is Me, me, me... but what about Sylvans? Everything forestal related seems a little glossed over to me. Without being too much of a bother (My rant is out of my system... but I still mean every word) can someone tell me what's going to happen with the Sylvans?

You're losing (kind of) Concoctions and gaining a combat-relevant third skillset eventually.  Not this week, probably not even this month.  So you don't need to get too worried about it yet.

I'm pretty confident that the administration will give us something fun to play with in place of concoctions--they're usually pretty good at making their new toys really cool (just look at the Shaman changes). The two things that I'm hoping for is that the new skill gives us something in the way of defense to make up for the loss of the sip bonus (since the tankiness has always been a draw for me), and that the skillset is something unique from other concoctionists to give more uniqueness to the various forestal classes.

Ahmet

Ahmet said:

@Tecton Since metallurgy is being removed from alchemy, does that mean that we can finally be free of the metal requirements for channeling? So damn annoying to find you've run out of metals and can't channel about.

Also, will we still have to keep primes on hand for our homunculi?

Lisbethae

Addama said:

As a Forger (at one point with a Hammer) I can safely say that Daeir is right, there's nothing interesting about the old Forging mechanics and virtually no reward.  It's gambling, pure and simple.

And that's what people liked about it, the gambling aspect. I don't think that things like serrated and corticated have the same appeal as making a 167/192/215 scimitar. I could be wrong! It's happened before.

Texel

HAntonius said:

Texel said:

Kendrick said:

Hi, I hate to interrupt your conversation but there is one minor thing in regards to Knights, here, @Tecton: I cannot currently equip two Baldrics, meaning I cannot sheathe both a two-handed weapon and a bow at the same time, any chance we can get that fixed?

You can just wear a bow though. 

This was already covered. It introduces an additional command needed to get from wielding to stored, since you have to UNWIELD/WEAR and REMOVE/WIELD if you choose to wear it. Plus, to be honest, wearing it just doesn't look anywhere near as cool. I can wear (at least) four scabbards, a baldric and a backstrap; I don't see any reason why two baldrics should be somehow out of the question.

That said, with the recent changes to WIELD you're probably better off just totally foregoing containers complete. I doubt there will be any changes to SHEATHE/DRAW etc. in the near future that will make them as easy to use.

how about a command like sheathe/draw 
perhaps stay/loose or
Sling/unsling
There's another one that I had in mind that's slipped it now.
...I think wearing a bow is cool. 

Sena

Lisbethae said:

And that's what people liked about it, the gambling aspect. I don't think that things like serrated and corticated have the same appeal as making a 167/192/215 scimitar. I could be wrong! It's happened before.

I like gambling, but I don't like bad gambling. Forging isn't like blackjack or poker where you spend a little and have a chance to get lucky. It requires a huge initial cost (to trans the skill, buy comms, and probably buy a hammer), and then hours or even days to get something you can sell. There's no skill, strategy, or thought involved, just mindless repetition. It's great on the rare occasions where you forge an amazing weapon, but outside of those one-in-a-thousand (at best) weapons, you're basically spending hours of your time throwing money in a furnace.

Even so, I have considered being a forger in the past. I'm even more inclined to pick up forging now though, both because it seems more interesting and profitable, and because I don't have to be a knight for it.

Addama

Lisbethae said:

Addama said:

As a Forger (at one point with a Hammer) I can safely say that Daeir is right, there's nothing interesting about the old Forging mechanics and virtually no reward.  It's gambling, pure and simple.

And that's what people liked about it, the gambling aspect. I don't think that things like serrated and corticated have the same appeal as making a 167/192/215 scimitar. I could be wrong! It's happened before.

The problem was the fact that such things could be made, which in turn necessitated people spending hours on end doing FORGE.  Think of it this way: What if only 1% of the cures you transmutated would ever possibly sell in a shop, and of those, only 6% would actually pay for the minerals you spent on the other 99.94%?

A few people might've lived for it, but for the rest of us, it was an expensive, time-intensive, often fruitless obligation. 

Antonius

Texel said:

HAntonius said:

Texel said:

Kendrick said:

Hi, I hate to interrupt your conversation but there is one minor thing in regards to Knights, here, @Tecton: I cannot currently equip two Baldrics, meaning I cannot sheathe both a two-handed weapon and a bow at the same time, any chance we can get that fixed?

You can just wear a bow though. 

This was already covered. It introduces an additional command needed to get from wielding to stored, since you have to UNWIELD/WEAR and REMOVE/WIELD if you choose to wear it. Plus, to be honest, wearing it just doesn't look anywhere near as cool. I can wear (at least) four scabbards, a baldric and a backstrap; I don't see any reason why two baldrics should be somehow out of the question.

That said, with the recent changes to WIELD you're probably better off just totally foregoing containers complete. I doubt there will be any changes to SHEATHE/DRAW etc. in the near future that will make them as easy to use.

how about a command like sheathe/draw 
perhaps stay/loose or
Sling/unsling
There's another one that I had in mind that's slipped it now.
...I think wearing a bow is cool. 

Or just allow more than one baldric to be worn. That seems like it makes more sense than adding yet another command that does essentially the same thing.

Exelethril

Xinna said:

Tecton said:

Elazar said:

Here is my question: So I am now required to learn weaponmastery or I will not be able to do much in combat, right?

My issue is that I spent many credits in general skills I would not have...knowing that I must learn weaponmastery.  Now I gotta get another 1700 lessons (300cr) for combat?

Weaponmastery will be the primary combat skill for knights, yes. We should be able to help people in this situation out when the time comes to cut over.

But this is the same situation I'm in. Before, there was no point in purchasing a Soulpiercer for bard, so I purchased other artifacts instead. Now, due to the changes, I will need one to stay top tier competitive, but I can't afford it because I spent my credits on other things, like a Thoth's fang.

Whatever skills those knights spent credits on instead of forging aren't changing. But the changes make a different way of spending their credits necessary.

୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨

Antonius

Terrana said:

Not to be all, I believe the term is Me, me, me... but what about Sylvans? Everything forestal related seems a little glossed over to me. Without being too much of a bother (My rant is out of my system... but I still mean every word) can someone tell me what's going to happen with the Sylvans?

It's been "glossed over" because there's nothing to be said about forestals yet. This is the first part of a number of changes, not every class has a replacement skill planned/designed for it yet (at least that has been acknowledged anywhere vaguely public); I'm sure you'll be told what's happening with Sylvans when there's actually something to say.

Kez

I was upset at first, but I'm calm now. While, yes, I fall firmly into the category of people who have every crafting skill, I can definitely understand the desire to limit access to those trade skills that are getting detached from their classes.

That, said, one thing still bothers me quite a bit. I very recently bought a jewellery license, which I definitely would not have done if I'd had an inkling something like this was going to happen. This puts me at 3 licenses out of 3. Considering that jewellery was the very last thing I opted to take up, and still would be if all of the classes' trades were options, I feel that based on the current outline, I'll be taking a loss on the cost of one crafting license, to have a crafting license that I won't use unless a much more appealing crafting skill becomes available, which has been stated won't be happening in the foreseeable future.

Because of that, I am hopeful for any of these three things to happen:

1. Trade-ins on crafting licenses. I'd happily eat the loss on other jewellery-related costs if I could unpurchase my license in this transition.

2. Don't consider crafting skills as trade skills in this transition. They differ greatly from class trades as it is, because crafting skills supplement RP with items that people opt in for but aren't actually necessary and have no bearing on your ability to participate in any other aspect of the game. Yes, food is necessary for certain types of characters, but there are still a lot of denizen food dealers and they are simultaneously cheaper and more filling than food obtained through cooking, so it's definitely an RP thing, and clothing to stave off indecency can still be purchased in shastaan. Class trades do have a great impact on your ability to participate in other ways, though. Mostly in terms of combat. Concoctions, transmutation, forging, venom, and enchantments, whatever they'll be called in the future, have serious impacts on both PvP and PvE and are purchased in bulk quantities on a regular basis. That simply isn't the case for clothing and jewellery, and when it happens with food it's strictly RP (weddings). I'm not saying RP should be free, but I don't think it should be in competition with other aspects of the game, especially when it's an aspect that's so enthusiastically enforced.

3. Release a new craft. Already stated not to be the case, but a girl can dream.

More on the last sentence of my second solution (I'm not saying RP should be free, but I don't think it should be in competition with other aspects of the game, especially when it's an aspect that's so enthusiastically enforced.)

I've spent 8,316,070 gold on crafting, just as Kez. Over the course 200 achaean years, and having access to three shops in excellent locations, I've earned back 2,482,084 gold in sales, minus an estimated 124,105 gold in price policy discounts. My shops frequently don't even come close to having enough gold in the stockroom to pay the taxes, so there's an ongoing and unaccounted-for cost as well on the order of about 8k a year. Clearly, crafting is already in no way about the earning potential, but the access to more indepth RP. Please don't tax that further

Trey

Antonius said:

Terrana said:

Not to be all, I believe the term is Me, me, me... but what about Sylvans? Everything forestal related seems a little glossed over to me. Without being too much of a bother (My rant is out of my system... but I still mean every word) can someone tell me what's going to happen with the Sylvans?

It's been "glossed over" because there's nothing to be said about forestals yet. This is the first part of a number of changes, not every class has a replacement skill planned/designed for it yet (at least that has been acknowledged anywhere vaguely public); I'm sure you'll be told what's happening with Sylvans when there's actually something to say.

I actually think Sarapis or Tecton mentioned something about weather control? That could have been idle musing though.

Suladan

Jacen said:

If my car dealership was filled with $40,000 cars, and I sold you one, then took the car back and gave you a giftcard for my dealership worth $40,000 while raising the price of all my cars to $50,000, I'd say you lost a significant monetary investment.

But what if I'd driven your car for a few years (and though it's unimportant for your analogy - made $20,000 by using it).

The thing that people may not be thinking with here is that there's a time difference involved - meaning, you didn't buy it yesterday and now it's being changed and you're getting less.

If you trans'd a crafting skill a year or two ago or whatever and you've been selling stuff ever since, that's probably hundreds of thousands or potentially millions of gold you got out of having it. You may even have paid of the entire cost in credits of getting the skill.

Even if not entirely, all things considered, you may still be on the benefit side even if you do have to spend more to get it back now.

Sena

Trey said:

I actually think Sarapis or Tecton mentioned something about weather control? That could have been idle musing though.

It was just a hypothetical example of what they might do. http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/comment/110240/#Comment_110240

Trey

I think I'm actually in luck. The only thing I really give a damn about losing are the abilities in inkmilling that relate to tattoos, but I think Tec said they're moving those into tattoos. As long as I have my back slot, I'll probably drop inkmilling and gathering, pump those lessons into the new forging skills, and put tailoring lessons back into tailoring. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.

Kyttin

Jacen said:

If my car dealership was filled with $40,000 cars, and I sold you one, then took the car back and gave you a giftcard for my dealership worth $40,000 while raising the price of all my cars to $50,000, I'd say you lost a significant monetary investment.

This, this is exactly how I explained it but with a grocery store scenario.

Riashain

Look forward to seeing the solution for artefact refunds. Eg.forging hammer.... Milking artefact... Etc.

Xith

Did I hear that self-inking and back slots were being moved to Tattoos?

Tharvis

Xith said:

Did I hear that self-inking and back slots were being moved to Tattoos?

yes

Trey

Xith said:

Did I hear that self-inking and back slots were being moved to Tattoos?

Since when was self-inking not a part of normal Tattoos?

Terrana

What about the people that 'scrimped and saved' to buy 'just enough' credits to get the skillset they wanted. I understand that we will be getting 'those' credits back (Yes, I realize I'm using a lot of quotation marks), but since they bought them specifically FOR those skills that's like... going to buy that $40,000.00 car after having to save for 3 months for the advertised price, and being told. "Oh, well... since you already saved up the $40,000.00 now you can get the same car... for $50,000.00. Don't worry though, if you don't want it, you can still keep your $40,000.00. I fully realize that nothing I say or do is going to really affect anything, but the unfairness in the system just seems rather boggling. I'm also not against change... like allowing forestals into a city other than Eleusis. That would be amazingly and wonderously FAIR, but hey... I don't mind being punished for something that happened like 200 achaean years before my birth... not at all! I'm digressing though, but I am sure you see my points. And while I'm trying not to have this be a rant, because I do see everything that has been pointed out and quite a bit of it I can see as actually being beneficial, I am (while I hate to admit it) rather selfishly pursuing my 'grand agenda' and trying to get equality for Sylvans. Yes, I know... our Viridian armor and regeneration make us absolutely beastly in combat... All I'm saying is, while I understand and appreciate that there are going to be changes involved, I have to wonder. If you went to buy a cheeseburger happy meal for 2.99 and all they had was chicken nuggets... while you WOULD eat them, they wouldn't be what you wanted. We bought and paid for what we wanted... Why I can't have no cheeseburger? Am I coming across clearly? I certainly hope so.

Daklore

@tecton regarding the flavour-text additions to forging, how exactly will those be determined?

Will there be an experience bar we can view, or will it all be hidden progress that we can only guess at?

Will it be an overall weapon/armour forging progress, or a per item progress?

Are the only text-cosmetics common and bland descriptors, or will this open the door to some exotic weapon "skins" such as maybe, weapons made of ice, or lava, or even living weapons(okay, I personally don't want those, but just because I don't doesn't mean others won't)?

Will descriptors be able to be combined? Since I don't have any real idea of what will be available, I can't really try and give an example of combining, I guess... but you guys might have an idea where I'm coming from XD

Will weapons/armour be able to be hued? For instance, maybe I could add some cobalt to my scimitars during forging and they'd come out azure-hued... or maybe some onyx and they'd come out dark. Granted, this doesn't make sense in a real-world sense(get off my back logic, I know it wouldn't work the same!) but there's magic and stuff  

If there is an experience bar for individual items, does this open the possibility of slight variance in weapon/armour stats above the norm if you get it high enough? Let's face it, all weapons and armour being the exact same stats aren't really going to make these tradeskills a profitable venture. Supply is going to quickly exceeed demand, and unless there's some sort of forger's union, prices will eventually fall to nearly commodity investment prices without any form of variance(I do agree that the current gamble system is a complete grumble-fest, though).

Are there going to be any ability to create custom flavour-text descriptors? Will cities or houses have descriptors that can be applied to weapons/armour?

If there -is- indeed some form of experience bar for forging, is there -any- chance that existing forgers can or will have some experience in armour/weapon smithing on release based on their current skill level or something? It stands to reason that they wouldn't suddenly forget how to forge...

I think I ran out of questions, but my curious mind wishes to know!

Xith

Theris said:

Addama said:

Terrana said:

Not to be all, I believe the term is Me, me, me... but what about Sylvans? Everything forestal related seems a little glossed over to me. Without being too much of a bother (My rant is out of my system... but I still mean every word) can someone tell me what's going to happen with the Sylvans?

You're losing (kind of) Concoctions and gaining a combat-relevant third skillset eventually.  Not this week, probably not even this month.  So you don't need to get too worried about it yet.

I'm pretty confident that the administration will give us something fun to play with in place of concoctions--they're usually pretty good at making their new toys really cool (just look at the Shaman changes). The two things that I'm hoping for is that the new skill gives us something in the way of defense to make up for the loss of the sip bonus (since the tankiness has always been a draw for me), and that the skillset is something unique from other concoctionists to give more uniqueness to the various forestal classes.

Based on the Shaman skill and anything else I may or may not have seen, everyone will get something fairly awesome. Tecton hinted (http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/1934/forestal-skillsets/p1) that the 3rd skill would be shared but with variations for each class?

Either way, it's going to be legen - wait for it...

Addama

Terrana said:

What about the people that 'scrimped and saved' to buy 'just enough' credits to get the skillset they wanted. I understand that we will be getting 'those' credits back (Yes, I realize I'm using a lot of quotation marks), but since they bought them specifically FOR those skills that's like... going to buy that $40,000.00 car after having to save for 3 months for the advertised price, and being told. "Oh, well... since you already saved up the $40,000.00 now you can get the same car... for $50,000.00. Don't worry though, if you don't want it, you can still keep your $40,000.00. I fully realize that nothing I say or do is going to really affect anything, but the unfairness in the system just seems rather boggling. I'm also not against change... like allowing forestals into a city other than Eleusis. That would be amazingly and wonderously FAIR, but hey... I don't mind being punished for something that happened like 200 achaean years before my birth... not at all! I'm digressing though, but I am sure you see my points. And while I'm trying not to have this be a rant, because I do see everything that has been pointed out and quite a bit of it I can see as actually being beneficial, I am (while I hate to admit it) rather selfishly pursuing my 'grand agenda' and trying to get equality for Sylvans. Yes, I know... our Viridian armor and regeneration make us absolutely beastly in combat... All I'm saying is, while I understand and appreciate that there are going to be changes involved, I have to wonder. If you went to buy a cheeseburger happy meal for 2.99 and all they had was chicken nuggets... while you WOULD eat them, they wouldn't be what you wanted. We bought and paid for what we wanted... Why I can't have no cheeseburger? Am I coming across clearly? I certainly hope so.

I'm not positive what any of this has to do with changes specifically to Sylvan.

I mean, I get that you might be angry about the changes to trade skills (if you have a bunch of them), but it sounds like they're leaning toward giving people the option of spending their lessons from the third class skill on either the new class skill or tradeskills, and if they do, you won't lose anything.  You can just dump those lessons back into the two Concoctions skills.

Terrana

Here's a thought on Sylvans... give us plant control. As viridians we are essentially half plant anyways. Kinda like the little pets that the Sentinels have, only like... a lycopod that we can throw a seed down and make it grow and attack our enemies. I personally believe that would be pretty neat, and would follow RP fairly well, as Sylvans have a unique understanding of Nature... being an intimate part of it already. You could also have certain plants for certain Sylvans in different cities, but that would be allowing Sylvans into other cities *hint hint*, but that could be a different scenario entirely. It's a viable option, and I have idea'd it. Also thought of a perfume making trade skill. That would be fairly neat, and would help with the economy, as people could pay credits for 'personalized' scents. Hey, just spit-balling ideas out there so people don't think all I know how to do is whine and rant.