Tradeskill split

Addama

They're getting lessons back that they would only ever spend on trade skills.  The trade skills cost more, so therefore the lessons are worth less, so they're getting less value for what they spent.

It would be different if they were getting a money refund, for example, or a credit refund, even, but they're getting a lesson refund.  The non-comms who bought credits for lessons to get these trade skills aren't going to spend the lessons elsewhere. 

Kresslack

Jacen said:

If my car dealership was filled with $40,000 cars, and I sold you one, then took the car back and gave you a giftcard for my dealership worth $40,000 while raising the price of all my cars to $50,000, I'd say you lost a significant monetary investment.

Trey said:

You're comparing apples and the color blue.

Nim

Jacen said:

If my car dealership was filled with $40,000 cars, and I sold you one, then took the car back and gave you a giftcard for my dealership worth $40,000 while raising the price of all my cars to $50,000, I'd say you lost a significant monetary investment.

The thing is, this is exactly what they're doing. People are arguing that its not, but it's literally the point of it. Except a better anology is that the government is suddenly taxing people for having more than two cars, and they're applying it retroactively because the entire point is so people have less cars individually. Also pretend there are good reasons for people having less cars.

But people can still have as many cars as they had before, they just have to pay more now, so it's not like there won't be people with fifty cars in their garage or anything anymore, it's just there'll be less people with that many.

It's a bit different from that of course, since the good reason for people having less crafts is to reduce each person's ability to be self-sufficient, and perhaps to reduce the number of people who can do everything for free.

Dji

Yeah, you didn't buy a car. You didn't buy those skills. You bought credits. When you did that they were pretty clear that credits were all you were getting, and the value of those credits in the game were subject to change.

All that is happening is the amount of skills those credits gains you is changing. Something that is likely going to be good for the game and good for the economy 

Hellen

Kyrra said:

@Hellen, some people want to just gather and sell materials, and not make potions/tonics.

I should have been more clear, my apologies. Concoctions will be split into harvesting and concoctions. Transmutation will be split into synthesis and transmutation. This much is known, and in theory, each split skill should be similar, even if it sounds as if Synthesis will only be gaining the metals and primes, whereas harvesting will be an immediate harvesting of herbs, which are both component and cure.

What I'm saying is that we have two sets of cures that will accomplish the exact same thing, especially now that the skills will be available to most people who play Achaea.

This is a good time to remove one of the cure sets and simplify the process or make up something that all can use regardless of class or city. Should we do that is the question?

Xith

Nim said:

If people think making it cost 5700 credits will keep people from getting all the craft skills, those people are vastly underestimating the Achaean playerbase.

Will be a select few that actually do that. The time investment to actually utilise all the skills you would gain (gathering things, designing things, milking things, forging (not sure about time investment on this now), and so on, not going to interest people enough to do all of them.

I'm interested to see if any business sense will arise and some people will specialise in gathering raw goods while others go for refined goods. You'll have your crafter-enchanters, tun-fillers, forging enchanters, etc.

Kresslack

Dji said:

Yeah, you didn't buy a car. You didn't buy those skills. You bought credits. When you did that they were pretty clear that credits were all you were getting, and the value of those credits in the game were subject to change.

All that is happening is the amount of skills those credits gains you is changing. Something that is likely going to be good for the game and good for the economy 

This. Not only that, those credits were then converted to something else entirely: lessons. In the end people spent lessons on something that is changing, and they're getting the lessons they spent back, and what they spent it on is being made more exclusive.

Arguing everyone who spent Lessons on trade skills should get credits back instead is like saying people who bought credits and then bought Mayan crowns with those credits so they could then buy a Shop of Wonder item, should get credits back if the item is recalled. That's not how it works; you get the amount in Mayan crowns back that you spent.

Nim

Xith said:

Nim said:

If people think making it cost 5700 credits will keep people from getting all the craft skills, those people are vastly underestimating the Achaean playerbase.

Will be a select few that actually do that. The time investment to actually utilise all the skills you would gain (gathering things, designing things, milking things, forging (not sure about time investment on this now), and so on, not going to interest people enough to do all of them.

You can say that now, but the number of people who eventually get all the crafts will only rise. It might even become fashionable, in the same sort of sense that learning a ton of languages is sometimes deemed fashionable. And it's not as though there isn't a convenience factor in being able to get your own curatives, fashion your own wearables, and make your own gear.

Amarillys

Hellen said: Kyrra said: @Hellen, some people want to just gather and sell materials, and not make potions/tonics. I should have been more clear, my apologies. Concoctions will be split into harvesting and concoctions. Transmutation will be split into synthesis and transmutation. This much is known, and in theory, each split skill should be similar, even if it sounds as if Synthesis will only be gaining the metals and primes, whereas harvesting will be an immediate harvesting of herbs, which are both component and cure. What I'm saying is that we have two sets of cures that will accomplish the exact same thing, especially now that the skills will be available to most people who play Achaea. This is a good time to remove one of the cure sets and simplify the process or make up something that all can use regardless of class or city. Should we do that is the question?

Tecton said:

Blujixapug said:

I like that tradeskills will be limited. In theory this encourages people to trade with one another, the type of dealings and circulation that are important for an economy to be an economy. If anything, giving people 2 tradeskills (rather than just 1) and allowing them to buy more tradeskills seems overly generous. People are discussing omni-skilled "self-sufficiency" as though it's a positive term, and it might be from an individual's perspective, but I think it's harmful from the perspective of community-building and socialisation.

I am unhappy about design-based tradeskills being lumped in with the rest. Tailoring, Jewellery, and Cooking were never money-makers for most people, with a huge initial cost (200cr = 1m+ to earn back before anything is profit), high design costs, low profit margins, the creative writing requirement, and serious difficulty getting goods to market without a shop to sell from. You didn't take Tailoring to get rich, you took it to be able to design things.

I am concerned that some tradeskills will not be economically robust. Transmutation is currently an example: no meaningful environmental scarcity for primes means there is nothing preventing a massive glut of supply, nothing preventing alchemists from endlessly undercutting each other, and the bottom falling out of the market. (If there was meaningful environmental scarcity, an alchemist could sell cheaply, but only until they ran out of stock.) Cheap goods are nice for buyers, but that must be weighed against keeping tradeskills desirable for sellers too.

Previously, the difference between alchemical and natural curatives was mainly just the city-based division between alchemists and forestals. With the skills being separated from those classes, it now seems more pronounced how identical the products of Harvesting/Synthesis and Concoctions/Transmutation are. Will there perhaps be a new Concoctions-only potion or Synthesis-only mineral added, to help differentiate those skills?

We changed transmutation a few months ago to be less of an open faucet in terms of prime availability. It's still more bountiful that herbs are, but there's also another step involved with synthesising the primes into usable minerals. It may take some time for the market to reflect this, based on the (frankly, ridiculous) previous availability. 

As for more meaningful differences, we've got some plans for further diversifying these in the future, but they won't be part of this change. You can consider this the first step in facilitating such a change!

Hellen

Oh, I missed that with all the replies. Thank you!

Kyrra

I am hoping that I'm not the only person who did this, but back when a tradeskill split was first mentioned, I actually messaged Tecton to ask about the specifications and what it was likely to involve because I wanted the time to plan ahead and decide what I wanted to do with my character.

I was told at the time that tradeskills would be limited to two people maximum (I still have that message), and that would include the current tradeskills which I have all learned and transcended. It was pretty overwhelming at the time to decide what I wanted to save, especially since I've invested in tradebook tomes for crafting, arti butcher cleavers and ink mills, and I was pretty used to having those two extra tattoo slots on my back.

I hate forging so that's no loss, but actually finding out now that it's entirely possible to have all of those skills despite a higher lesson cost is really awesome. I actually prefer being self-sufficient and I know the idea is to encourage more interaction between players, yet nobody is going to truly be limited like I was initially be told, unless they want to be.  I like that you can figure out what you want your character to be involved in and won't be restricted by class anymore. And the fact that there's going to be refunds at all is just great because the admin could have just given everyone a clean slate with no return and told everyone to suck it up.

It's super exciting that knights and alchemists are getting done over first too. Best Logosmas ever.

Wessux

KNIGHT CHANGES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kendrick

Hi, I hate to interrupt your conversation but there is one minor thing in regards to Knights, here, @Tecton: I cannot currently equip two Baldrics, meaning I cannot sheathe both a two-handed weapon and a bow at the same time, any chance we can get that fixed?

Shirszae

More importantly, can we make two-handed swords fit into scabbards? I really,really hate the idea of baldrics. It just does not have the same ring as scabbard for me.  

  

Xith

Shirszae said:

More importantly, can we make two-handed swords fit into scabbards? I really,really hate the idea of baldrics. It just does not have the same ring as scabbard for me.  

  

Lots of stuff to consider in Knights/weapons.
Also please move Behead out of public weaponry. I die a little every time I see a Magi - or worse, jester - use it.

Blujixapug

Addama said:

Just in case there's some kind of confusion, they're not changing the skills, they're just making them much more expensive and taking them away from the people who have already bought them so they have to buy them back at the higher price.

How does this not look bad?

I'm viewing it similarly to Lusternia's problems with Ascendants.

Background: In Lusternia, each city gains a resource called 'power' when its citizens do certain quests and competitive activities. Citizens can withdraw small amounts of power, which is required to use certain powerful abilities. Power does various other things as well. Cities could spend I think 1 or 2 million power to turn one of their citizens into a Vernal Ascendant. Ascendants are a turbo version of a level 100 race comparable to Achaea's dragons, but 5x more badass, able to have their own religious orders and do all kinds of crazy nonsense. There were regular competitive activities that only Ascendants could participate in, called Domoth battles. The reward for winning Domoths was a large amount of power for your city.

The original intention was that cities would Ascend people only very, very rarely, because it was so expensive, and it would be a hugely momentous, special event. But Domoth battles meant that cities were winning tens of thousands of power every week, and spitting out an Ascendant every few months. More Ascendants = more Domoth victories = more power = more Ascendants, so the cycle was only getting faster.

Eventually their admins realised things were broken and rapidly getting worse. They threw around some nerfs, and decided that the cost to raise new Ascendants would be 2x the cost of the previous one (2 mil, 4 mil, 8 mil, 16 mil etc), which applied retroactively. And they made cities de-Ascend their existing Ascendants if they wanted to repay this power debt and raise any new ones.

Imagine your city gives you its highest honour, and turns you into a turbo-mega-dragon. But then the admin say "whoops, we just realised this was a bad idea, no more turbo-mega-dragons", and it all gets undone. It was hugely unpopular.

But it was also necessary to preserve the integrity of the game. The excess of Ascendants and power inflation were undermining multiple game systems and unbalancing org conflict. So they had to piss people off with an unpopular change, alienating people by taking away a prized reward, to fix their own major design mistakes and salvage the game into something that would remain playable a year into the future.

That's how I'm looking at these tradeskill changes. You aren't supposed to "buy back" all your tradeskills (personally I think it's a bad idea, and a distraction, that you're able to go over the 2 skill limit at all). They're trying to create a more dynamic tradeskill-based economy, where each player has a different tradeskill and has to buy from and sell to each other to get what they need. People aren't supposed to have every tradeskill, because the whole economic thing doesn't work if you never need to deal with anyone else. But to achieve this, they need to take away some of the tradeskills people currently have. Which sucks for those people. Ideally people never should have had multiple tradeskills. But things weren't planned out that well, and that's the way things are, so now they have to piss people off by taking something away from them.

Omelette, eggs.

edit: clarity

Bluef

Nim said:

It's a bit different from that of course, since the good reason for people having less crafts is to reduce each person's ability to be self-sufficient, and perhaps to reduce the number of people who can do everything for free.

Overall, I'm just waiting to see how things are going to play out with these changes, but I have to say that I dislike any intentional manipulation of the game toward making my character be less self-sufficient. Get ready for the Spoiler mini-rant; here it comes.

She's a rogue and by the very definition of that existence she desires self-sufficiency and all the glorious liberties that come with it - and I'm not the only one. At any given time, rogues make up 10-15% of the active players in the realm (I think Sarapis had once stated rogues make up 1/5 of the playerbase but don't quote me on that). Not every one of them embraces this same level of individualism as Bluef, but their roleplay is based around varying degrees of it. 

I fully understand that this is not desired by the Garden. Rogues have been told time and again that there isn't any interest in developing libertarians in the game. There is a push to get everyone to join a faction, take a side, align with somewhere. But that doesn't work for everyone and I don't think I need to get into the why of that here.

So what do rogues do in these instances? We make do. We become self-sufficient; except now we're being told that isn't the Achaean ideal either. Join a city to get in on the real fun. Gain access to stuff you'll need (including alchemy labs and milking rooms, etc.) Find people to complement your skills. Otherwise, you'll be missing out. 

First I was a shaman in Shallam and we all know how that ended up. Now I'm a rogue and oops, as far as trade skills go that's not going to fly either. I have to become interdependent. For all the stress of having to deal with other players who have terrible biases against my character for no logical reason and the costs involved, it may not be not worth it. 

Like others, I also have a real problem with the price hike on all these trade skills. Because just because the goal is to perhaps reduce the number of people who can do everything, the reality is that what will flourish even more is the already ever-present economic disparity between players who can afford to purchase things OOCly and those who cannot. 

A couple of actual questions that came up in discussions IC: 

• How will milking rooms, forges, labs, etc. keep up with the huge influx of new trade persons? Will there be more of them? Won't it matter? Having never needed to any of these, I have no idea if it'll be prohibitive or not.
• Will rogues be able to walk into any city lab, milking room, etc. that is open to the public (and that they're not enemied to) and use these things like a citizen? 
• Will there be rooms like this in Delos the way there is a stove in the Crafter's Guild there?
• Can you possess both the transmutation trade and concoction trade (I'm still not clear on that)?

Nim

@Bluef: Given that you're a shaman, were you ever truly independent, though? You probably could make your own tattoos, but if you wanted armor, you needed to talk to a knight. If you wanted curatives, you needed to talk to a forestal or an alchemist. If you wanted sigils, you'd need to talk to a magi. Even if you changed classes, you'd still have some other class to talk to for something.

That dialogue could have happened through a shop, of course.

On the contrary, they're not removing people's ability to become self-sustainable. By letting people get all the crafting skills, they're increasing it. They're just making it cost more.

Bluef

Nim said:

@Bluef: Given that you're a shaman, were you ever truly independent, though? You probably could make your own tattoos, but if you wanted armor, you needed to talk to a knight. If you wanted curatives, you needed to talk to a forestal or an alchemist. If you wanted sigils, you'd need to talk to a magi. Even if you changed classes, you'd still have some other class to talk to for something.

That dialogue could have happened through a shop, of course.

On the contrary, they're not removing people's ability to become self-sustainable. By letting people get all the crafting skills, they're increasing it. They're just making it cost more.

Yeah, I just go to a shop and buy them. I don't need to talk to anyone about anything. I haven't marketed a need for anything beyond runes in probably RL years. I set Bluef up to be rich and capable of doing whatever she wants without having to interact with anyone and that works for her (and has to work for her for various reasons). 

The last part is my point. If you want to RP being a self-sufficient rogue, it now costs more to do so. I understand that they want to do that and I can even hop on the train of the reasoning behind it, but I also think it's punitive against older characters like Bluef who have a long personal history and who worked hard to make do with what they were left with after various IC situations that they had no control over (RIP Shallam/Dawnstriders). But hey, I'm no special snowflake. We'll see how it all works out.

Addama

I agree with @Blujixapug, for the sake of the in-game economy, this should have been the case the whole time.  I still think that those who already had the trade skills transed should keep those skills if they want them, though.

Amarillys

Bluef said:

Nim said:

@Bluef: Given that you're a shaman, were you ever truly independent, though? You probably could make your own tattoos, but if you wanted armor, you needed to talk to a knight. If you wanted curatives, you needed to talk to a forestal or an alchemist. If you wanted sigils, you'd need to talk to a magi. Even if you changed classes, you'd still have some other class to talk to for something.

That dialogue could have happened through a shop, of course.

On the contrary, they're not removing people's ability to become self-sustainable. By letting people get all the crafting skills, they're increasing it. They're just making it cost more.

Yeah, I just go to a shop and buy them. I don't need to talk to anyone about anything. I haven't marketed a need for anything beyond runes in probably RL years. I set Bluef up to be rich and capable of doing whatever she wants without having to interact with anyone and that works for her (and has to work for her for various reasons). 

The last part is my point. If you want to RP being a self-sufficientrogue, it now costs more to do so. I understand that they want to do that and I can even hop on the train of the reasoning behind it, but it's frankly punitive against characters like older characters Bluef who have worked hard to make do with what they were left with after various IC situations that they had no control over (RIP Shallam/Dawnstriders). 

Shops will still be there and you'll still be capable of going there to pick up your stuff, love. The only difference is now you can add a couple of trade skills of your choice (instead of just gathering/inkmilling) and they're free except the lessons.

It's not more expensive to be a self-sufficient rogue now. Now you can actually -be- a self-sufficient rogue if you can afford it. Before there was no way to learn how to do everything yourself. Now there is. Before you had no option of self-sufficiency. Now you do.

Bluef

Amarillys said:

Bluef said:

Nim said:

@Bluef: Given that you're a shaman, were you ever truly independent, though? You probably could make your own tattoos, but if you wanted armor, you needed to talk to a knight. If you wanted curatives, you needed to talk to a forestal or an alchemist. If you wanted sigils, you'd need to talk to a magi. Even if you changed classes, you'd still have some other class to talk to for something.

That dialogue could have happened through a shop, of course.

On the contrary, they're not removing people's ability to become self-sustainable. By letting people get all the crafting skills, they're increasing it. They're just making it cost more.

Yeah, I just go to a shop and buy them. I don't need to talk to anyone about anything. I haven't marketed a need for anything beyond runes in probably RL years. I set Bluef up to be rich and capable of doing whatever she wants without having to interact with anyone and that works for her (and has to work for her for various reasons). 

The last part is my point. If you want to RP being a self-sufficientrogue, it now costs more to do so. I understand that they want to do that and I can even hop on the train of the reasoning behind it, but it's frankly punitive against characters like older characters Bluef who have worked hard to make do with what they were left with after various IC situations that they had no control over (RIP Shallam/Dawnstriders). 

Shops will still be there and you'll still be capable of going there to pick up your stuff, love. The only difference is now you can add a couple of trade skills of your choice (instead of just gathering/inkmilling) and they're free except the lessons.

It's not more expensive to be a self-sufficient rogue now. Now you can actually -be- a self-sufficient rogue if you can afford it. Before there was no way to learn how to do everything yourself. Now there is. Before you had no option of self-sufficiency. Now you do.

True. This depends on if rogues can access the tools needed to use all the trade skills though, right?

Amarillys

Bluef said:

Amarillys said:

Bluef said:

Nim said:

@Bluef: Given that you're a shaman, were you ever truly independent, though? You probably could make your own tattoos, but if you wanted armor, you needed to talk to a knight. If you wanted curatives, you needed to talk to a forestal or an alchemist. If you wanted sigils, you'd need to talk to a magi. Even if you changed classes, you'd still have some other class to talk to for something.

That dialogue could have happened through a shop, of course.

On the contrary, they're not removing people's ability to become self-sustainable. By letting people get all the crafting skills, they're increasing it. They're just making it cost more.

Yeah, I just go to a shop and buy them. I don't need to talk to anyone about anything. I haven't marketed a need for anything beyond runes in probably RL years. I set Bluef up to be rich and capable of doing whatever she wants without having to interact with anyone and that works for her (and has to work for her for various reasons). 

The last part is my point. If you want to RP being a self-sufficientrogue, it now costs more to do so. I understand that they want to do that and I can even hop on the train of the reasoning behind it, but it's frankly punitive against characters like older characters Bluef who have worked hard to make do with what they were left with after various IC situations that they had no control over (RIP Shallam/Dawnstriders). 

Shops will still be there and you'll still be capable of going there to pick up your stuff, love. The only difference is now you can add a couple of trade skills of your choice (instead of just gathering/inkmilling) and they're free except the lessons.

It's not more expensive to be a self-sufficient rogue now. Now you can actually -be- a self-sufficient rogue if you can afford it. Before there was no way to learn how to do everything yourself. Now there is. Before you had no option of self-sufficiency. Now you do.

True. This depends on if rogues can access the tools needed to use all the trade skills though, right?

Can't access an alchemy lab? Concoctions are for you. What's a milking room? Toxicology sounds like it's a gather and create thing. Maybe you'll need a room? There's enchantment rooms outside the cities... I think you have to pay for them but hey, you're self-sufficient, you can do it! Forges. Forges every where. Even if they're in a city, it's not like you have to be a citizen to use them.

I know that comes off really sarcastic and I don't mean it to. Promise.

Nim

Oh, yeah, I didn't really disagree regarding rogues in particular. It would be ugly, to say the least, if you needed to be in a city to use a trade skill. I honestly could see them making rogues pay surcharges or something, and I honestly think that'd be really dumb, but not being able to do it at all would be almost unthinkably bad design.

I just disagreed with the sentiment that they were making self sustainability less possible, because even though it's going to be more expensive for certain combinations of skills, they're actually making it possible to begin with now. You literally could not be as self-sustainable as you can be now.

Bluef

Amarillys said:

Bluef said:

Amarillys said:

Bluef said:

Nim said:

@Bluef: Given that you're a shaman, were you ever truly independent, though? You probably could make your own tattoos, but if you wanted armor, you needed to talk to a knight. If you wanted curatives, you needed to talk to a forestal or an alchemist. If you wanted sigils, you'd need to talk to a magi. Even if you changed classes, you'd still have some other class to talk to for something.

That dialogue could have happened through a shop, of course.

On the contrary, they're not removing people's ability to become self-sustainable. By letting people get all the crafting skills, they're increasing it. They're just making it cost more.

Yeah, I just go to a shop and buy them. I don't need to talk to anyone about anything. I haven't marketed a need for anything beyond runes in probably RL years. I set Bluef up to be rich and capable of doing whatever she wants without having to interact with anyone and that works for her (and has to work for her for various reasons). 

The last part is my point. If you want to RP being a self-sufficientrogue, it now costs more to do so. I understand that they want to do that and I can even hop on the train of the reasoning behind it, but it's frankly punitive against characters like older characters Bluef who have worked hard to make do with what they were left with after various IC situations that they had no control over (RIP Shallam/Dawnstriders). 

Shops will still be there and you'll still be capable of going there to pick up your stuff, love. The only difference is now you can add a couple of trade skills of your choice (instead of just gathering/inkmilling) and they're free except the lessons.

It's not more expensive to be a self-sufficient rogue now. Now you can actually -be- a self-sufficient rogue if you can afford it. Before there was no way to learn how to do everything yourself. Now there is. Before you had no option of self-sufficiency. Now you do.

True. This depends on if rogues can access the tools needed to use all the trade skills though, right?

Can't access an alchemy lab? Concoctions are for you. What's a milking room? Toxicology sounds like it's a gather and create thing. Maybe you'll need a room? There's enchantment rooms outside the cities... I think you have to pay for them but hey, you're self-sufficient, you can do it! Forges. Forges every where. Even if they're in a city, it's not like you have to be a citizen to use them.

I know that comes off really sarcastic and I don't mean it to. Promise.

I honestly have no idea what's required for most of these new trade skills in terms of resources and that's sort of what's scary (and exciting). I can see cities closing some of these off to citizens-only though, which is why I'm curious if there will be things available in Delos similar to the Crafter's Guild stove for those who aren't a part of a city.

Trey

Bluef said:

Amarillys said:

Bluef said:

Amarillys said:

Bluef said:

Nim said:

@Bluef: Given that you're a shaman, were you ever truly independent, though? You probably could make your own tattoos, but if you wanted armor, you needed to talk to a knight. If you wanted curatives, you needed to talk to a forestal or an alchemist. If you wanted sigils, you'd need to talk to a magi. Even if you changed classes, you'd still have some other class to talk to for something.

That dialogue could have happened through a shop, of course.

On the contrary, they're not removing people's ability to become self-sustainable. By letting people get all the crafting skills, they're increasing it. They're just making it cost more.

Yeah, I just go to a shop and buy them. I don't need to talk to anyone about anything. I haven't marketed a need for anything beyond runes in probably RL years. I set Bluef up to be rich and capable of doing whatever she wants without having to interact with anyone and that works for her (and has to work for her for various reasons). 

The last part is my point. If you want to RP being a self-sufficientrogue, it now costs more to do so. I understand that they want to do that and I can even hop on the train of the reasoning behind it, but it's frankly punitive against characters like older characters Bluef who have worked hard to make do with what they were left with after various IC situations that they had no control over (RIP Shallam/Dawnstriders). 

Shops will still be there and you'll still be capable of going there to pick up your stuff, love. The only difference is now you can add a couple of trade skills of your choice (instead of just gathering/inkmilling) and they're free except the lessons.

It's not more expensive to be a self-sufficient rogue now. Now you can actually -be- a self-sufficient rogue if you can afford it. Before there was no way to learn how to do everything yourself. Now there is. Before you had no option of self-sufficiency. Now you do.

True. This depends on if rogues can access the tools needed to use all the trade skills though, right?

Can't access an alchemy lab? Concoctions are for you. What's a milking room? Toxicology sounds like it's a gather and create thing. Maybe you'll need a room? There's enchantment rooms outside the cities... I think you have to pay for them but hey, you're self-sufficient, you can do it! Forges. Forges every where. Even if they're in a city, it's not like you have to be a citizen to use them.

I know that comes off really sarcastic and I don't mean it to. Promise.

I honestly have no idea what's required for most of these new trade skills in terms of resources and that's sort of what's scary (and exciting). I can see cities closing some of these off to citizens-only though, which is why I'm curious if there will be things available in Delos similar to the Crafter's Guild stove for those who aren't a part of a city.

Right now there are plenty of forges outside of cities, so that isn't terrible.

Jonathin

Ok, so there are a few people here that are speaking for others and because I'm a rebel, I have to speak for myself.

I'm one of those people who spent too much money on crafting skills (jewellery, tailoring, cooking, inkmilling, gathering, and whatever else there might be) and I'm really not worried about how the admin are going to handle the transition. I've never been handed the shaft when a big change has come through and while I haven't been completely blown away with glee, I have at least come away satisfied that I got an equal exchange for what I lost.

Kald

Wouldn't it just be easier and keep more people happy if Tailoring, Jewelry and Cooking were defined as crafting skills and not lumped in as a trade skill? Since you have to pay an additional 200credits for the license it makes more sense to define it apart from the common trade skills. That or removed the 200cr cost for a license, refunding people what they spent in credits for the license.

Xith

Addama said:

I agree with @Blujixapug, for the sake of the in-game economy, this should have been the case the whole time.  I still think that those who already had the trade skills transed should keep those skills if they want them, though.

Man if I had a credit for every time someone agreed with Blujixapug....

Synbios

@Blujixapug‌ : I keep forgetting: when Vernal ascendancy is taken from someone by the city, don't they devolve into a kind of lesser ascendant(basically turbo-mega-dragon devolves down to mega-dragon)?