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Tradeskill split

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  • KryptonKrypton shi-Khurena
    My god I'm so glad I can finally unlearn Gathering and Inkmilling. I only Transed these skills cuz that's what all the cool kids were doing when the skills were first introduced. Knowing I'm getting my lessons back... this must be what it feels like to learn a procedure finally exists to erase that tramp stamp you got that one night of drunken college stupor.
  • AddamaAddama
    I just agreed with a Prythe post.

    Stick a fork in me, I'm done.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United States
    edited December 2014
    Addama said:
    Kresslack said:
    Qwindor said:
    The only thing I do not like about this change is that I am trans all of the mini trade skills as well but you are only going to refund me the lessons I spent into it not the lessons to get back the skills completely considering they will scale up each time I learn a new one. So not cool.
    That's kind of the point, as someone mentioned, because it encourages people to pick one or two and then work with other people to accommodate different demands. So if nothing else, you're still getting a ton of lessons back to invest in whatever you want.
    It's kind of crummy from a business standpoint, though.  Like, I'm going to pay $600 for a bunch of content.  Then one day, IRE decides that they're going to rework the content.  They're not going to change it much, only the means by which you get it.  But instead of just giving you all the content you had, they give you a fraction of it, and if you want the rest, you're going to have to pay a ton of money for it.

    This isn't the same as offering free content, then pulling it and putting a price on it.  This is taking content people have bought and putting a new, higher pricetag on it.
    Except you bought one thing, and now the nature of that thing has changed. It's not as if they just randomly sprung up this idea for change, it's that the change as recognized as needed to match the expansion and evolution of the game. This not only keeps it immersive, but competitive. If you read the Terms of Service, whenever you buy into anything in Achaea, you do so with the underlying understanding that it can change in the future for any reason, and that they're not obligated to accommodate any request for return on investment. So with that in mind, I think the way they're going about it is quite generous.

    It's not just a revamp of the trade skills system, it's a revamp of the potential economy system, which requires everyone starting on more or less the same tier, and imposing some restrictions on how easy it is to specialise in multiple trades (which is largely impractical in any economy, and makes the potential for skilled Professions a moot pursuit),

    To be fair, "money making skills" are not something that should be limited to certain classes, in my opinion. There's very little diversity in market that way. Merchant and crafting interests shouldn't be stifled by requiring to be a certain class (e.g. forging, enchanting, concoctions, etc).


  • TreyTrey
    Kayeil said:
    Disappointed that some of these items are getting full refunds because they're now useless. I got a partial refund on my talisman of runic affinity even though it became useless to me after the loss of runelore that I had no choice in, and yet the reason I was given was that, "I had gotten a year of use out of it." So these other people didn't get use out of theirs is what you're saying?
    @Kayeil, I'm sure the reasoning isn't that we're not getting a year of use out of it, but that the difference is this: Your talisman of runic affinity would still be functional if you went runewarden. Hammers of Forging are going to be functionally useless to EVERYONE once the change goes in. They won't do -anything- anymore.

    Also, a side note. I can appreciate how the detractors of this change feel given investments and whatnot, but while I'm not trying to be a dick, taken verbatim from HELP CREDITS:

    Disclaimer:
    -----------
    Achaea is a functioning world, and while we guarantee you will not lose any of
    the credits you buy, no such guarantee can be provided for what you purchase
    with the credits themselves. Naturally, we wouldn't be in business very long if
    this happened frequently, but as it is a world, your actions have consequences,
    and the actions of others can result in consequences for you. It's this
    dynamism in the nature of the world that people enjoy about Achaea. Thus, it is
    possible that the perceived or real value of the things you purchase with
    credits, or your ability to use those things, may both rise and decline during
    the course of play.

  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    I shouldn't have to take the cost of changing a class just to make it work when it worked for my current class. No one is making runies take a lesson/credit hit for loss of forging as a class only skill.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • TreyTrey
    Kayeil said:
    I shouldn't have to take the cost of changing a class just to make it work when it worked for my current class. No one is making runies take a lesson/credit hit for loss of forging as a class only skill.
    You're comparing apples and the color blue.

  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United States
    Kayeil said:
    I shouldn't have to take the cost of changing a class just to make it work when it worked for my current class. No one is making runies take a lesson/credit hit for loss of forging as a class only skill.
    That's because there's a new skillset being implemented and their lesson investments are just being transferred over to it. Your decision to change class was exactly that.


  • AddamaAddama
    Kresslack said:
    Except you bought one thing, and now the nature of that thing has changed. It's not as if they just randomly sprung up this idea for change, it's that the change as recognized as needed to match the expansion and evolution of the game. This not only keeps it immersive, but competitive. If you read the Terms of Service, whenever you buy into anything in Achaea, you do so with the underlying understanding that it can change in the future for any reason, and that they're not obligated to accommodate any request for return on investment. So with that in mind, I think the way they're going about it is quite generous.

    It's not just a revamp of the trade skills system, it's a revamp of the potential economy system, which requires everyone starting on more or less the same tier, and imposing some restrictions on how easy it is to specialise in multiple trades (which is largely impractical in any economy, and makes the potential for skilled Professions a moot pursuit),

    To be fair, "money making skills" are not something that should be limited to certain classes, in my opinion. There's very little diversity in market that way. Merchant and crafting interests shouldn't be stifled by requiring to be a certain class (e.g. forging, enchanting, concoctions, etc).
    People are losing content that they bought, and they're pissed off about it.  And I believe they have a right to be pissed off about buying something and not getting something equal or better in return when they lose it.

    Yeah, there's fine print that says IRE can take away anything you buy, but that's understood as a tool to fix problems, such as if a class is overpowered, and it's still expected that the customer is going to get some kind of a refund.  But taking content away and giving it back with a much higher pricetag just looks bad.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • NimNim
    @Kayeil: Ideally, if there's ever a spiritlore artefact, you should be able to trade it in for 100% value for that artefact, whether you get the artefact directly, you get the difference in credits, or you get that much reduced from its actual price (depending on said artefact's price).

    If, however, there's never a spiritlore artefact, it's hard to give something of equivalent value.

    Another shaman artefact would work (I think there's one for curses?), but if you already have it, that's a moot point anyhow.

    If you haven't already traded in, I would talk to them about the above perspective.

    If you've already traded it in, you could still trryyy, but it'd be tougher to present a case like that.
  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    What I don't get is why some of you are suddenly arguing with me? I was commenting on a refund Tecton mentioned, asked him how my situation was any different when this was discussed over e-mail. It has nothing really to do with any of you other than what his reasoning is, unless you're just trying to force me into giving up on receiving an answer?
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United States
    edited December 2014
    Again, they're not losing content they bought. If they bought credits to convert into lessons, they're getting those lessons back. So they are, as I understand it, getting back exactly what they've already invested into it, only it will be more expensive to reinvest into multiple tradeskills in the future, which I don't see as unfair.

    Something to be pissed about would be getting nothing, or only half of the invested lessons back and having to bite the bullet. So again, they're not 'taking content away', they're drastically changing the nature of it, which requires everyone starting fresh in a sense.

    Taking it away would be like them deciding to completely remove a tradeskill, not refund the lessons invested into it, or offering an alternative. Also, the 'fine print' applies to anything, not just class based fixes. This is a fix to a currently outdated tradeskill system.

    There's an implied understanding that anything you use credits/lessons on can be changed at the discretion of IRE to whatever extent they feel is necessary to make the game better and more balanced. They -are- getting a refund of their investment, only the price of investing in multiple tradeskills (any past two) is increasing.

    Kayeil said:
    Kresslack said:
    Kayeil said:
    I shouldn't have to take the cost of changing a class just to make it work when it worked for my current class. No one is making runies take a lesson/credit hit for loss of forging as a class only skill.
    That's because there's a new skillset being implemented and their lesson investments are just being transferred over to it. Your decision to change class was exactly that.
    I didn't change class. I have always been shaman. The item worked for runelore. Runelore was taken away and replaced with spiritlore. I had no part in that decision making process.
    The difference is, the item Still works for Runelore (no?), even if it doesn't work one specific class anymore. Thus, it falls under standard trade-in circumstances. It's nothing like the Hammer of Forging, which would literally just be a paperweight and have no functional use for anyone (as Tecton and Trey mentioned already). That's a pretty big difference.


  • SiduriSiduri
    @Tecton : Exempting the current license skills from the lesson cost increase, coupled with the refunds, is pretty much equivalent to grandfathering all non-class trade skills, because the two current trade miniskills, gathering and inkmilling, would already fall within the two 100% cost miniskills.

    If people receive full lesson refund for their third class skill, they can either 1) train in the new class skill and trans it, or 2) train in the two new trade skills.

    However, those people will need to shell out 100 credits, and a 150%, then 200% lesson cost on gathering and inkmilling if they want to be exactly where they were before the changes.

    BASICALLY, the figures here assume that people's trade skills are all refunded at 100% value, and that the three design skills are unaffected by the cost increase:

    1) Scenario 1 : 3 Design skills, Third Skill, 2 Trade miniskills, Gathering + Inkmilling
    Current investment:
    600 credits in licenses
    5201 lessons

    Necessary investment:
    700 credits in licenses
    7626.5 lessons

    Net cost: 100 credits, 2425.5 lessons (504.25 credits total)

    2) Scenario 2 : 3 Design skills, 2 Trade miniskills, Gathering + Inkmilling
    Current investment:
    600 credits in licenses
    5201 lessons

    Necessary investment:
    700 credits in licenses
    5890.5 lessons

    Net cost: 100 credits, 689.5 lessons (214.9 credits total)

    3) Scenario 3: 3 Design skills, Third Skill, 2 Trade miniskills (assuming you convert those you have to others)
    Current investment:
    600 credits in licenses
    5201 lessons

    Necessary investment:
    600 credits in licenses
    5201 lessons

    Net cost : Nothing

    tl;dr: Exempting design skills, and simply refunding everything so people may chose to do what they want is a not too bad middle ground. Those deciding to do the trade-off of their already owned class trade skill for the new class fighting skill get out of there without additional cost. However, those who want to keep their trade skills as they are will have to shelve the equivalent of 215 credits. Those who want it all, well, 505 credits.

    I'm a bit disturbed by the fact that those opting to keep their Class trade skill instead of their Third skill have to lose 215 credits, so maybe the current members of those classes could be given grandfathering tokens for their -now current- class trade skill that would really make it a simple choice of opting between the new skill and the old.



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  • SarathaiSarathai
    So next week I get all the lessons I had in Inkmilling back? (I went up to Canvas for the extra back slot, and that seems to be moving into Tattoos.)

    Once the harvest-and-concoct split of Concoctions is released as a tradeskill next week or so, what does that mean in terms of the class Concoctions skill? Will it still be there up until it's swapped out? From the sounds of it, the druid changes, at least, are only in very early stages. So there may be quite some time yet before the class skill of Concoctions goes away?

    And what happens if we still have the class skill, and get the two tradeskills as well? Do we just have doubled-up abilities during the intermediary period until the switchover to the new class skill?
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United States
    edited December 2014
    Addama said:
    Just in case there's some kind of confusion, they're not changing the skills, they're just making them much more expensive and taking them away from the people who have already bought them so they have to buy them back at the higher price.

    How does this not look bad?
    It's only been brought up countless times how they're getting their invested lessons back (or applied to their new class based third skill if applicable), so I'm not sure where the monetary lose is here. If someone bought credits to convert into lessons, they're getting those back.

    Is being proficient in multiple tradeskills going to be more expensive? Yes, but that's the entire point. It does little to nothing from an economic standpoint for someone to specialise in jewellery, tailoring, culinary, etc and then only use those skills to support themselves while putting little to nothing into the actual market environment. So if people want to do that, they still can, but there will be restrictions, which I think is a good change.

    Also, I wasn't aware you 'buy' skills. You buy credits to convert into lessons (which, at the point of sounding overly redundant, are getting refunded to be reinvested as the individual wishes). You buy permits in some cases to be able to gain access to a skillset. Those are also being reimbursed in the form of tokens which can be used towards the same skillset or a different one.

    In some cases they are literally changing the skilltrees (four main skills and being split in half), but overall it's changing the -way- these tradeskills work and how beneficial they can be to the game itself, not just one person.

    It looks bad because people are intensively inserting ambiguity into a overly clear change and taking a "Me, me, me" stance on the whole thing.


  • AddamaAddama
    It's easy to take a "me, me, me" stance on something you've bought.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • KryptonKrypton shi-Khurena
    Hellen said:
    I'm actually kind of curious about the Trasmutation and Concoctions split. I mean, when you remove the Philosopher's Stone from Transmutation, that and Concoctions are basically the same thing. Just that you're getting different flavor for it. They accomplish similar things.

    My question is, would it be better to keep the two split or favor one over the other, combine it into something else, or just leave it as it is? Because the way I see it, one can pay twice to make curatives that act the exact same way. Just that they can have a different flavor for it.

    At one point, one reason to give another curing system was to ease the burden on forestals as a kind of cure machine class. With this split, it seems like it would be better to either discard one of the curing systems to cut down on confusion or merge the two somehow, at least to me.

    Am I making any kind of sense here?
    The in-game history of Alchemists means Harvesting/Concoctions is going to be off-limits to Alchemists, and Synthesis/Transmutation is going to be off-limits to forestals. They all need to remain, but be identical, if all classes are to have the same access to all possible tradeskills.
  • KyrraKyrra Australia
    @Hellen, some people want to just gather and sell materials, and not make potions/tonics.


    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United States
    Addama said:
    It's easy to take a "me, me, me" stance on something you've bought.
    Kresslack said:

    It's only been brought up countless times how they're getting their invested lessons back (or applied to their new class based third skill if applicable), so I'm not sure where the monetary lose is here. If someone bought credits to convert into lessons, they're getting those back.



This discussion has been closed.