Mhaldor vs Targossas

Reyson

For the sake of constructive criticism, I'll say this: I do agree with @Silas that a time limit is an arbitrary way to handle things. 

With a reasonable minimum, there should absolutely be a war goal, and not a time limit, to achieve one's objectives. If it's X rooms destroyed/war bounties executed/kills/guards murdered/etc., then a race to do that is better, because people have more fun putting the time in and skipping sleep and whatever for a short time to win, rather than knowing they have to do the same thing every day they log in for however long. Variation has been hashed to death here, from including noncoms to neutral territory to stuff for ships (I guess). 

In regards to this specific problem, I would suggest allowing for different victory types: total victory, victory under terms, or white peaces. A complete and utter asskicking ought to merit a pretty steep penalty for the losing side. For a war that's more evenly matched, partial imposition of the war goals should be imposed, with significantly less bragging rights (for most defenders, this should be an eminently achievable goal, since it's stupid to declare war on someone who can kick your ass), and where no headway is made one way or the other, a truce with no imposition of war goals should be an option. Of course, victories must be declared with the objectives fulfilled (whatever the metric for determining who's winning ends up being), and truces have to be ratified by both sides.

War goals in general could use more work: stealing money from another City is pretty bland, and thematically one of the most unimportant things, since some adventurers walk around with more money than the war will actually cost a City in their pockets. I'd much rather the repercussions be visible and set before war begins, rather than have a generic one for all wars, or terms settled upon usually mid-war and in OOC fashion.

Edit: Words is hard 

Vinzent

The borefest of requiring silence/bellow against guards 24/7 has made this significantly less interesting than it could otherwise be. We have fewer Magi already and no people to bellow. I have yet to see this, in any time zone, apply to Mhaldor. 

Minifie

Vinzent complaining about guards? 

Rhuul

Could be cool if the territory villages like New Hope, etc, could grant benefits to a city if they're currently controlled. Nothing PVP beneficial so much as giving other benefits, that way a faction that controls more doesn't have a constant advantage. Things like commodities, resources, etc.

War conclusions would then have that built into the winning side occupying one of these territories at which point there'd be flags placed in them and probably some mobiles that walk around subjugating/converting the inhabitants.

Archaeon

we can solve all these problems by just bringing back landmarking

Reyson

I don't love it, either. I'd really prefer neutral-ground fights to be the norm, rather than trying to tank (with sanctioned raids being a highlight, rather than the go-to), and I think that's one of the most common feedback points. 

Silas

Rhuul said:

Could be cool if the territory villages like New Hope, etc, could grant benefits to a city if they're currently controlled. Nothing PVP beneficial so much as giving other benefits, that way a faction that controls more doesn't have a constant advantage. Things like commodities, resources, etc.

War conclusions would then have that built into the winning side occupying one of these territories at which point there'd be flags placed in them and probably some mobiles that walk around subjugating/converting the inhabitants.

They don't need a mechanical benefit. It's easy to motivate cities like Targ/Mhaldor to fight for control of any given territory, but adding a mechanical benefit just means that in time every village will be controlled by one of the cities for no other reason than that +5 wood injection, which is boring.

Reyson

It could be an interesting mechanic to divorce city improvement upkeep from PC-generated commodities and make them only work through NPC villages, like the difference between essence and crusade essence. But that's a whole kettle of fish to look into, and I don't know how that'd go down for the PvP-evasive places. (Also, rewarding the victors by hammering the defenders' ability to later defend themselves seems weird, if in keeping with RL war strategy)

ETA: Silas is right, though, Mhaldor and Targossas wouldn't need a reason, and I suspect Ashtan wouldn't, either, when it comes to Petra and Thera. Again, I dunno about the PK-avoiding teams, how that'd work.

Aegoth

Vinzent said:

The borefest of requiring silence/bellow against guards 24/7 has made this significantly less interesting than it could otherwise be. We have fewer Magi already and no people to bellow. I have yet to see this, in any time zone, apply to Mhaldor. 

Man, if only you didn't literally always resort to guards with your constant 2:1 advantage, you wouldn't have to worry about silence/bellow

Archaeon

Aegoth said:

Vinzent said:

The borefest of requiring silence/bellow against guards 24/7 has made this significantly less interesting than it could otherwise be. We have fewer Magi already and no people to bellow. I have yet to see this, in any time zone, apply to Mhaldor. 

Man, if only you didn't literally always resort to guards with your constant 2:1 advantage, you wouldn't have to worry about silence/bellow

Fendrel

Aegoth said:

Vinzent said:

The borefest of requiring silence/bellow against guards 24/7 has made this significantly less interesting than it could otherwise be. We have fewer Magi already and no people to bellow. I have yet to see this, in any time zone, apply to Mhaldor. 

Man, if only you didn't literally always resort to guards with your constant 2:1 advantage, you wouldn't have to worry about silence/bellow

Do you wake up from that dream after or before?

Silas

Reyson said:

It could be an interesting mechanic to divorce city improvement upkeep from PC-generated commodities and make them only work through NPC villages, like the difference between essence and crusade essence. But that's a whole kettle of fish to look into, and I don't know how that'd go down for the PvP-evasive places. (Also, rewarding the victors by hammering the defenders' ability to later defend themselves seems weird, if in keeping with RL war strategy)

ETA: Silas is right, though, Mhaldor and Targossas wouldn't need a reason, and I suspect Ashtan wouldn't, either, when it comes to Petra and Thera. Again, I dunno about the PK-avoiding teams, how that'd work.

Ashtan, New Hashan (assuming the ex-Targs don't end up getting kicked out of Hashan) and Eleusis (where it wouldn't even make sense to control villages, except to reintegrate them back into Nature) would be fine without mechanical benefits, and Cyrene can join any war on the side of the defender, as is their wont.

Jinos

Reading through things I am reminded of a quote from Bruce Lee.

'Like everyone else, you want to learn the way to win. But never to accept the way to lose. To accept defeat – to learn to die – is to be liberated from it.'

Regardless of the system in place no one wants to lose. As someone who plays in a city that generally loses conflict on broader scales, it is a terrible feeling to face most of the time.

But I think Mhaldor, and Targossas are more than capable of building off of a loss, even in a war where the system is still being fleshed out.

Big Papa Jomi

u guys r disappointing

Thaisen

Sothantos said:

Can we stop labeling everything everyone does as "not RP"? It's completely in-character for Sothantos the character to call for a war extension, and that was 100% my call. I didn't even consult anyone.

In fact, I think it would have been out of character not to call for an extension.

Lol... “100% your call”....

ok @Astarod

Caelan

Thaisen said:

Sothantos said:

Can we stop labeling everything everyone does as "not RP"? It's completely in-character for Sothantos the character to call for a war extension, and that was 100% my call. I didn't even consult anyone.

In fact, I think it would have been out of character not to call for an extension.

Lol... “100% your call”....

ok @Astarod

Laughed way too damn hard at this.

Fuckin' @Astarod pulling some strings!

Jonathin

Archaeon said:

we can solve all these problems by just bringing back landmarking

Diaf

Reyson

Y'all really are taking the Eleusis route, huh? 

Silas

Speaking for myself, I actually want another 25 days of this.

Sothantos

I like war.

Achilles

Yessir, we want some more.

Big Papa Jomi

It's a stupid route OOC, but makes complete sense IC.

OOC, this war is kinda super annoying. IC, of course we're just supposed to want fight more.

The difference that I find annoying is that while people in Mhaldor are tired of the war and are trying to conform the RP to fit OOC burnout, Targossas is not. And like, I get it, I really do. You guys are sticking extremely closely to RP, as far as I can tell (which is not much, I don't interact with Targ much at all). But c'mon, I mean none of us know what Sartan's player is thinking. You guys could say something that makes his response "extend the war". Don't know how likely that is, but I'm exhausted of the thought that that could happen and we will have to extend the war. 

Is it all possible that we can just all conform the RP to bring this to an end so admin could fix up the war system, we could all get some rest, and then when it gets changed up, you guys can just throw the gauntlet again for a rematch?

I can't seriously be the only one tired of this and wanting to go back to stuff that I had planned before this, right?

Micaelis

I feel like this extension would be a win-win for Mhaldor. There's really no way to come out of it looking bad, and really things are just starting to get interesting! If you lose can always blame it on your badassery and willingness to risk it all when you had literally nothing to gain. Good RP point, suffering, etc. If you win then you basically just beat Targ in two wars, more or less. Rub it in their faces, gave 'em enough rope to hang themselves, etc etc. 

I feel like the risk is minimal, the gain is huge, and even the worst case scenario of a loss is mitigated by the balls to say "Sure, we could wrap this up with a W now, but you Easterner's need this $*#@ for 25 more days so open up."

Do it @Stheno! 

Reyson

Some of us have more interesting shit to do than give Targossas 25 more chances to try the same thing and have it not work!

Archaeon

like what sit on guard stacks and afk? lol

Reyson

Watching paint dry would be more interesting than waiting for the Ama-maalier classlead to be put in and then seeing what you people come up with for opening an attack that isn't breathrain, so yeah. 

Saonji

Micaelis said:

There's really no way to come out of it looking bad

Given the cringey shouting match that just finished, it's safe to say this wouldn't actually happen.

Archaeon

Reyson said:

Watching paint dry would be more interesting than waiting for the Ama-maalier classlead to be put in and then seeing what you people come up with for opening an attack that isn't breathrain, so yeah. 

Reyson

Stheno

Silas said:

Speaking for myself, I actually want another 25 days of this.

Is this true of everyone who hid from the war, complained it wasn't fun, and didn't really show up for most of it? You're all eager to dodge more bounties and flex about how hard you want to get hit in the mouth? That doesn't strike you as kind of limp and fake? If the bluff was that I wouldn't put people on both sides through another month of shit they hate, or that I think Targossas is worth engaging forever because they'll totally grow from this and concede this time, good job. You caught me.

Whoever bet on "the losers will crow that they won anyway/that the loss isn't real" just made bank from the punters.

Micaelis said:
If you win then you basically just beat Targ in two wars, more or less. Rub it in their faces, gave 'em enough rope to hang themselves, etc etc.

We're already beating Targossas, if they would like to fight back between now and war's end. They tried to push a new CL around and couldn't. I care about people's enjoyment of the game more than the ego and revisionist history that are constantly on display in Achaea and here. A brilliant story isn't going to somehow hatch from another month of grinding, when Targossas has just confirmed that they can never take the L.

You don't always have to choose the least rewarding option and then tut-tut the other side for... winning? It makes you not worth engaging at all.