Mhaldor vs Targossas

Kaios

Akri said:

Yeah I'm not really sure the infamy reduction(elimination?) was necessary. Being infamous at least gave risk later on, now it seems there's pretty much no downside to guardbashing. Don't get me wrong, I don't care much that people do it. I just also don't think bounties are really adequate answers to it. Did raid infamy get lessened too? It's just so weird so few people are infamous with all the back-and-forth raiding. Except me. I've been infamous the whole war. Do I get a "most infamous" accolade? 

Uh, how many times have you actually died to get rid of some of that infamy? No offense but that is no one's fault but your own if you're raiding during times with least amount of players around and thus taking less risk when doing so. Maybe you'd lose more infamy if you actually had a chance at dying in a fight but you always play it safe working with Crixos.

Entaro

Daeir said:

I would like to comment that being infamous for 11 days across 15 true deaths (I counted) for having the audacity to help with bashing two stacks of guards was complete aids for someone who doesn't poopsock PK or particularly like being ganked by four people whenever they so much as bother to log in. It defeats the entire point of the "soldiers are not open PK" thing when infamy renders them open PK to essentially everybody in the game who wants to fight. I think we can all agree on that much.

That being said, no infamy is just as silly. Maybe just cap the infamy gain at a reasonable amount? 11 days was absurd, and it wasn't like I wasn't dying during it either.

I think it might be an unintentional thing. I'm sure you guys killing 20+ guards and not a single person getting infamous is a bug of some kind.

I hope... 

Minifie

Kaios said:

Akri said:

Yeah I'm not really sure the infamy reduction(elimination?) was necessary. Being infamous at least gave risk later on, now it seems there's pretty much no downside to guardbashing. Don't get me wrong, I don't care much that people do it. I just also don't think bounties are really adequate answers to it. Did raid infamy get lessened too? It's just so weird so few people are infamous with all the back-and-forth raiding. Except me. I've been infamous the whole war. Do I get a "most infamous" accolade? 

Uh, how many times have you actually died to get rid of some of that infamy? No offense but that is no one's fault but your own if you're raiding during times with least amount of players around and thus taking less risk when doing so. Maybe you'd lose more infamy if you actually had a chance at dying in a fight but you always play it safe working with Crixos.

How is it Akri’s fault if her timezone falls in when it’s ideal for Mhaldor? Same as Targ taking advantage of it when their ideal time is during quiet mhaldor time. Infamy was meant to be the equalizer to soldiers not being open PK, if it is becoming a total non-factor, and people are issuing off of “helping” bounty hunters gank why even have a war system? It’s just the normal raiding system with a monthly update. 

Akri

Kaios said:

Akri said:

Yeah I'm not really sure the infamy reduction(elimination?) was necessary. Being infamous at least gave risk later on, now it seems there's pretty much no downside to guardbashing. Don't get me wrong, I don't care much that people do it. I just also don't think bounties are really adequate answers to it. Did raid infamy get lessened too? It's just so weird so few people are infamous with all the back-and-forth raiding. Except me. I've been infamous the whole war. Do I get a "most infamous" accolade? 

Uh, how many times have you actually died to get rid of some of that infamy? No offense but that is no one's fault but your own if you're raiding during times with least amount of players around and thus taking less risk when doing so. Maybe you'd lose more infamy if you actually had a chance at dying in a fight but you always play it safe working with Crixos.

36 times! I've died 36 times, not including deaths to guards as they aren't counted for the resolution.

Is it the least amount of risk? I dunno, maybe. I don't really want to argue about numbers, but I would say that most, if not all of the raids we do, Targossas definitely has opportunity and numbers to beat us. There may be a raid or two where this wasn't the case, but lopsided raids happen either way. I don't think the 4-6 people we bring are that outrageous, but if you feel otherwise then I can't argue with that feeling. I'm sorry you don't enjoy it. I myself very much enjoy, win or lose, those small battles and some Targossians have been an absolute blast to fight against and are real champs to keep trying and fighting. Big hats off to @Archaeon and @Kalogeros and others!

Archaeon

It wouldn't be so bad if it was akri/crixos/entaro. What is strange to me is that you will have ppl log in after the sanction then log out after. Seems a bit weird to engage akri/crixos 3v2 like we did yesterday (which was a great matchup where we did attempt to tactically fight the  best 2vx group I've ever seen) only to have the Evil clowncar pull up in our harbour and unload its occupancy when who mhaldor only was empty before the sanction. After the raid they qq'd. Seems like metagamey garbage from an outsiders perspective. 

Archaeon

Sorry for weird grammar my phone is smoking crack

Entaro

Archaeon said:

It wouldn't be so bad if it was akri/crixos/entaro. What is strange to me is that you will have ppl log in after the sanction then log out after. Seems a bit weird to engage akri/crixos 3v2 like we did yesterday (which was a great matchup where we did attempt to tactically fight the  best 2vx group I've ever seen) only to have the Evil clowncar pull up in our harbour and unload its occupancy when who mhaldor only was empty before the sanction. After the raid they qq'd. Seems like metagamey garbage from an outsiders perspective. 

I mean, sure, but don't act like that doesn't happen both sides.  I've seen Targossas who multiply by two the moment there's a fight.

Kaios

I already agreed that guard infamy is likely too low earlier in the thread but I've died about 60 times myself half of those being through starburst, but that includes deaths to guards as well. I don't like to argue about numbers either because I think given the right circumstances and obviously proven by yourself a smaller group can defeat a larger group using the right tactics. I think what I don't enjoy about those fights is the sheer speed in which everyone ends up being truelocked which I believe is why everyone is always so hesitant to engage even with a greater force. I have no clue if there are others that find that more manageable than I do or if I'm supposed to be able to avoid something like that at all, apostate be crazy though.

Archaeon

Entaro said:

Archaeon said:

It wouldn't be so bad if it was akri/crixos/entaro. What is strange to me is that you will have ppl log in after the sanction then log out after. Seems a bit weird to engage akri/crixos 3v2 like we did yesterday (which was a great matchup where we did attempt to tactically fight the  best 2vx group I've ever seen) only to have the Evil clowncar pull up in our harbour and unload its occupancy when who mhaldor only was empty before the sanction. After the raid they qq'd. Seems like metagamey garbage from an outsiders perspective. 

I mean, sure, but don't act like that doesn't happen both sides.  I've seen Targossas who multiply by two the moment there's a fight.

I have a taser prong attached to my crotch that goes off every time a sanction starts.

Entaro

Archaeon said:

Entaro said:

Archaeon said:

It wouldn't be so bad if it was akri/crixos/entaro. What is strange to me is that you will have ppl log in after the sanction then log out after. Seems a bit weird to engage akri/crixos 3v2 like we did yesterday (which was a great matchup where we did attempt to tactically fight the  best 2vx group I've ever seen) only to have the Evil clowncar pull up in our harbour and unload its occupancy when who mhaldor only was empty before the sanction. After the raid they qq'd. Seems like metagamey garbage from an outsiders perspective. 

I mean, sure, but don't act like that doesn't happen both sides.  I've seen Targossas who multiply by two the moment there's a fight.

I have a taser prong attached to my crotch that goes off every time a sanction starts.

That's kinda hot.

Vinzent

As far as I know, dying to guards does not reduce infamy, nor does dying in your own city or to a citymate.

Edit: Maybe it's dying to a citymate in your city.

Reyson

There are multiple ways to lose Infamy:

1. Over time, either present in the realms (faster) or not (slower).

2. Death to adventurers, or to city guards.

From the HELP INFAMY file, idk if it's accurate or not. 

Minifie

All of that is false, I have drained city mate’s infamy within the city by killing them as a testing dummy, as well as lost my own diving guard stacks and dying to them.

The best way to drain infamy is to be out in the world and dying, being outside your city or ship drains it surprisingly quickly.

Vinzent

More than once I have gotten Infamous (not during this war, but from a single non-guard bash raid) and had it for almost a month with plenty of dying, not being in city, and barely raiding. I have been told and seen dozens of people say/agree with guards not dropping infamy, and same for dying to citymates/in you city. Either it's so little it may as well be nothing or the help is incorrect.

Minifie

It depends wholly on how much infamy you gained from your actions, if you room attack into a city and detonate a tank without dying, you’ll generate quite a lot from my experience. I’ve been infamous for a week after a tank, 1 killing blow simply because I hit a lot of non-soldiers in eleusis and hit A LOT of different players, while had less infamy to drain after killing 35 eleusian guards to place shrines simply because I died a lot while killing those guards.

There may be bugs or disproportionately low or high gains/losses with infamy, but you definitely lose it for deaths to city mates and guards unless it was also changed with the recent guard infamy changes.

Farrah

Entaro said:

I'm just laughing people had issues with Dunn, who is an ally and has been working on joining Mhaldor before this war even began, but totally ok with disarming one tank and placing two of their own on dodgy grounds.   

This seems very misinformed, since Targossas has no real say in what Hashan does. We have never really even been in the same room as them, so you can't really say they should be attacking us and aren't. They have not even had an opportunity to. I do not know that anyone is really complaining about Dunn either (as opposed to bringing him up when Mhaldor complains about Seragorn, etc). But Dunn is actively working with Mhaldor (like Seragorn is with Targ), while Hashan is quite a bit more rogue.

Sometimes, I want to actually help Targ just so you guys could see how much we are not doing so. It's so silly to act like everyone is trying to make Mhaldor lose while almost nothing is happening outside of Mhaldor v Targ and Mhaldor is winning. Even if Adrik's tank had gone off, it's not like it'd give actual points to Targ. It's just a blown up room.

My own "interference" could be 100% stymied by simply fighting out contracts rather than choosing to hide from them. You are all free to try to avoid me completing them but the fact that it has consequences hardly means the world is unfair. The only time I've gotten involved other than for a contract was when Atalkez was a relic pinata. Sorry, too tempting for me.

I guess you can fault Targ (Avianca, I hear, but it's all anonymous on my end) for hiring the mark to fight its war in the first place, but I am just an innocent mercenary trying to make a living in this!

Minifie

Doing a search only yields Archaeon mentioning Dunn, and then the response pointing out that Targ let Seragorn join in the day or so after raiding and guard bashing. The only real complaints have been mechanical issues so far in this thread and infamy being nerfed to be quite shit. 

The issue Ent is pointing out isn't "Farrah is also fighting QQ" but that complaints have been made regarding Dunn/Seragorn yet on the same token some people tried to abuse a bug to their own advantage, at least hopefully it is fixed now, this idea of fairness is expected but not reciprocated.

Entaro

Minifie said:

Doing a search only yields Archaeon mentioning Dunn, and then the response pointing out that Targ let Seragorn join in the day or so after raiding and guard bashing. The only real complaints have been mechanical issues so far in this thread and infamy being nerfed to be quite shit. 

The issue Ent is pointing out isn't "Farrah is also fighting QQ" but that complaints have been made regarding Dunn/Seragorn yet on the same token some people tried to abuse a bug to their own advantage, at least hopefully it is fixed now, this idea of fairness is expected but not reciprocated.

Pretty much this.  I wasn't implying that Farrah was doing anything wrong, it's just funny hearing some of the double standards I've been hearing both off and in game.  This isn't directed at any faction in particular, as I suppose were all guilty of it, just something I notice more and more of as this really long war carries on.  

But yeah, bug fixed and hopefully Farrah can continue taking on an entire city and actually surviving without any more weird tank mechanics. 

Archaeon

The idea of fairness hasn't ever been considered by either side and that's a huge shame imo

Minifie

Archaeon said:

The idea of fairness hasn't ever been considered by either side and that's a huge shame imo

I wasn't insinuating that one side is innocent, I think the first few days that I legit only got to participate in a few fights was a no holds barred just outright blood bath solely for PK. I think reducing it to 1 year with the choice to extend will do the system good. 

Rhuul

Seems kind of silly to insinuate that Mhaldor's been discord training when most of Targ's power players immediately log in the moment they start getting raided. It's been so common throughout the war that we've started to predict it happening.

That said, I doubt it hasn't been happening on both sides. I'm not quite involved enough to know what goes on on Mhaldor's side at the upper levels but my observation as a new player has noticed at least this much.

Fendrel

Rhuul said:

Seems kind of silly to insinuate that Mhaldor's been discord training when most of Targ's power players immediately log in the moment they start getting raided. It's been so common throughout the war that we've started to predict it happening.

That said, I doubt it hasn't been happening on both sides. I'm not quite involved enough to know what goes on on Mhaldor's side at the upper levels but my observation as a new player has noticed at least this much.

Most of the succesful tank detonations Mhaldor has gotten in the last few days has been off-peak raids so this is a bit unfair to claim.

Archaeon

well if this whole thing has made one thing clear to me, it's that the powers that be in city leadership for both sides have never had any modicum of restraint, or care for the other side's players feelings/motivation/etc and I don't think that will ever be the case unless Cyrene decides to have a civil war.  

The obvious solution to this would be some kind of 'crusade' in Nish over objectives, at a set time with a set amount of people that can be involved per side.  This, coupled with champion fights (TTD in Delos arena or something) and, I dunno, anything else with an objective that doesn't encourage being shitty towards each other would reduce the amount of salt by a massive amount.  Give the noncomms something to do as well, like essence competitions or debates or something.  I hear the argument 'war is war' which is meh, since I have literally be in wars before and understand that IRL you are legally bound to show restraint and to engage within the bounds of proportionality. Also this isn't a war, this is a game, one which takes two interested parties to participate in meaningful conflict.  

In summary, I think a good amount of people want to see some kind of equal footing, but the few shitty ones that don't care about the other side's feelings will consistently ruin it which then creates a vicious cycle. The best solution to this would be to create non-city neutral grounds where interference is impossible, with predetermined team size limits over an objective. 

Reyson

It's not 'a few shitty ones.' Both sides hit the other with everything they've got, and if you're along for the raid for a good ol' guard bash/20+ man stomp, you're in on it, my man. Self-regulation has never been a thing in Achaea, and it never will be, and the moment one side begins to show that tendency, that's the way the whole thing is going to be played. From the PK lawyering to the huge dogpiles numbers to the ganking to the logging-on-if-you-see-a-sanction-on-the-website-in-City-logs, it's been pretty much everyone, on both teams. Given the hours-long guard bash on Sunday evening and the retaliation this morning, there is absolutely no way we can say, with a straight face, that both teams aren't ready to absolutely kick the other's teeth in every chance they get, at an unassailable advantage, if it comes up. 

Neutral grounds has been suggested tons as the way to go forward, either in Crusade style or Reckoning battlegrounds style, along with a reduction in 'active war time' every 24 hours (so that you only end up fighting a handful of hours, and in predictable or previously announced windows), and non-com objectives/participation avenues, so I'm hoping the admin team will take that lesson from this. 

And, I guess, ship stuff? 

Entaro

Just let us EU peeps play once in a while  

Rhuul

Fendrel said:

Rhuul said:

Seems kind of silly to insinuate that Mhaldor's been discord training when most of Targ's power players immediately log in the moment they start getting raided. It's been so common throughout the war that we've started to predict it happening.

That said, I doubt it hasn't been happening on both sides. I'm not quite involved enough to know what goes on on Mhaldor's side at the upper levels but my observation as a new player has noticed at least this much.

Most of the succesful tank detonations Mhaldor has gotten in the last few days has been off-peak raids so this is a bit unfair to claim.

I don't really understand how these two things are related, so please forgive me if I'm misunderstanding something here. My comment was regarding people suddenly showing up.

I don't really see an issue with capitalizing in off peak times, especially considering Targ regularly outnumbers Mhaldor. The same argument could be had for Targ showing up with around 24 people at their peak trying to raid Mhaldor while there were only 10 people on. What may be peak for you might not be peak for us and vice versa.

The flipside of this is that part of battling the forces of "Evil" is dealing with the fact that they -should- be capitalizing on your weaknesses. That's simply the evil thing to do. Good really should be the "better person" in this whole handling, as that's part of the conflict of being the good guy.

Mathonwy

That isn't what Good is in Achaea tho 

(wow feels like 2006 all of a sudden)

Sothantos

Re: comments about Targossas not taking risks and only raiding and fighting with superior numbers/forces. That is literally what everyone in Targossas thinks Mhaldor is doing, except you don't see complaints about it here.

Also, why is the faction that is winning by a long shot complaining the most here?

Sothantos

Oh yeah. Let's not forget the countless tanks we've lost because we played reckless.

Akri

Sothantos said:

Re: comments about Targossas not taking risks and only raiding and fighting with superior numbers/forces. That is literally what everyone in Targossas thinks Mhaldor is doing, except you don't see complaints about it here.

Also, why is the faction that is winning by a long shot complaining the most here?

We get to listen to those complaints in tells, ooc messages and issues! 

On a serious note, I might have missed it and I'm not re-reading all the posts, but haven't most complaints been about the infamy reduction lately, at least on our end? I mean after raiding and killing a ton of guards, most of us didn't even have infamy. That's not right.